The Biggest Scam in Supplement History
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The Biggest Scam in Supplement History - 11/21/2006 9:22:57 AM
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tdf700
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The Biggest Scam in Supplement History
Take a look at the history of nutritional supplements and you'll find many scams and cons. It's easy to spot these swindles in hindsight; it's a little tougher to identify them during their market peaks. Well, there's a scam going on right now, a big one. In fact, it's growing even bigger as I write this. Are you falling for it? Are you being suckered by bad science and questionable marketing tactics?
Let's cut to the chase: the biggest scam on the market right now is arginine blood flow stimulators. You may know these by the terms "nitric-oxide stimulators" or "NO2 supplements."
Wait, you already knew these supplements were worthless? And you think you already know what the scam is? Doubtfully. Because I'm about to reveal the real con behind these supplements. In this Consumer Alert, I’ll not only blow the lid off of the whole scam, but I’ll also reveal to you a better hemodilator that's been proven for years to increase blood flow, aid in recovery, and stimulate muscle protein synthesis.
This article covers the science showing why arginine products don’t stand up to their claims, but the rabbit hole goes much deeper than that. Hang on Alice, you’re in for a wild ride.
Why Arginine? Why Now?
Why are so many supplement companies focusing on arginine? Well, now that prohormones are banned, companies are scrambling to throw out the next big supplement to keep them in business. If nothing truly groundbreaking is within their grasp, they'll come out with a worthless supplement supported by dubious science. Want to know what's really pathetic? If this garbage supplement makes some money, other companies will rip off the bad idea and market their own versions, regardless of whether or not the supplement works!
Are the copycats and knockoffs, with their additional bells and whistles, better? No. In fact, some sleazy manufacturers are even including potentially harmful substances like glycocyamine in their products!
This copycat movement was really noticeable at the recent Olympia Expo, where only variations on two products seemed to exist: creatine and nitric oxide stimulators. While readers may be aware of the inherent risks of creatine wannabes from our Consumer Report on Dangerous Creatine, recent evidence demonstrates how nitric oxide stimulators can be considered the greatest con since ENRON. Let's dig into the evidence.
Hemodilators: Theory and Practice
The hemodilator (or blood vessel dilator) products saturating the market are purported to stimulate blood flow and subsequently enhance nutrient delivery to muscles, resulting in increased size and strength. As you may know, these products contain little more than the amino acid arginine, something that's been on the supplement market for years and years. Basically, arginine supplementation is claimed to stimulate the synthesis of the hemodilator nitric oxide (NO) in our blood vessels.
The existing theory looks like this:
Arginine -> Nitric Oxide -> Vasodilation -> Nutrient Delivery -> Muscle Growth and Strength
Now there’s nothing inherently wrong with arginine. In fact, it’s an important amino acid. It’s just not the amino acid to really help your gains — more on that later.
Sick Over Arginine
The whole hemodilator theory is relatively simple. Arginine is the precursor for NO synthesis and it's been shown that high dose arginine infusion directly into the bloodstream can lead to vasodilation in healthy fasted humans (17). Unfortunately, high doses can lead to decreases in total body water and sodium (4). And even a dose as low as 10 grams has been associated with gastric upset when consumed orally (26,14).
Researchers involved in a third study demonstrating oral arginine-induced GI distress actually had to reduce the quantity originally given so the trials could be completed effectively (29). Despite the reduction to seven grams an hour for three hours (for a 200 pound man), the researchers reported: "All of our subjects reported mild intestinal cramping and diarrhea that lasted for approximately five hours."
But wait, it gets worse! This arginine dose still had no significant effect on glycogen storage following exercise (29)! Because oral arginine only has 70% bioavailability, and up to 50% of this can be broken down to ornithine, taking arginine tablets or powder is impractical for research (6, 9). This is why arginine is usually infused directly into the blood via peripheral IV for scientific studies, and even then an impractical dose of 30 grams of this amino acid is common.
In fact, one study compared infusions and oral dosing. The researchers found that six grams of arginine had no effect via either route of administration, while it took a 30 gram infusion to cause vasodilation (6). So, it takes a 30 gram IV dose to get results. If we were to get these results from an oral dose, we’d have to take 43 grams because only 70% of it is bioavailable (i.e. 30 / .7 = 43).
Now if 10 grams can cause gastric upset, then the 43 gram oral dose (with bioavailability taken into account) makes me more than a little uneasy.
Arginine: A No Go for NO
If you think that this lack of effect is an isolated incident, other studies investigating high oral doses of arginine and NO induced blood flow have shown no effect when 21 grams (7 g 3x/d) were used (1). Two additional studies where 20 grams per day were taken for 28 days also showed no effects (11,12).
At first, this complete lack of effect was a little surprising considering that arginine is the precursor for nitric oxide synthesis. But upon closer inspection, natural arginine levels are far in excess of what should activate the enzyme responsible for NO production — an effect known as the arginine paradox (21).
In yet another study, a six day, arginine free diet had no effect on nitric oxide synthesis. This indicates that arginine isn't limiting for NO production, and its regulation is far more complicated than supplement companies would have us believe (9).
Of course, the whole rested and fasted thing doesn’t apply to you, so let’s see what happened when exercise was involved. This next noteworthy study used 10 grams of arginine along with 70 grams of carbohydrates in subjects who either performed resistance training or cycling exercise (26). The results? There were no changes in blood flow or glucose uptake compared to placebo, regardless of which mode of exercise was used. This is significant because it directly contradicts the claims of the supplement manufacturers.
For those who are more skeptical, or perhaps just brainwashed by flashy advertising, you’re probably not happy with studies using pure arginine. Oh no, it has to be special arginine, like the ones used in the popular products, before you’ll believe any results. Fine, let's look into the science and crack that nut.
The Acid Test
While it’s important to understand the evidence behind normal arginine supplementation, many would argue that it doesn’t apply to the original nitric oxide-stimulating supplement, NO2. This is because the aforementioned product contains arginine alpha-ketoglutarate, not simply arginine. The theory is that alpha ketoglutarate (AKG) somehow makes this supplement "work." Okay, that’s cool, let’s see what science has to say.
This specific product had several studies performed on it, and they were presented at the International Society of Sports Nutrition conference in the summer of 2004. While the findings do not yet come from peer reviewed publications, they yield important information about the efficacy, or lack thereof, of this supplement.
The first study examined the blood levels of arginine and "time released arginine" (following a four gram supplementation with each) to determine whether the latter enhanced the duration of elevated blood arginine levels (18). The reasoning for this study is due to the claim that NO2 has time-release technology, resulting in "perpetual pumps."
Unfortunately for the company, blood arginine levels were nearly all quite similar, and at times 30% lower, in the time-release trial compared to the pure arginine trial! The reason for the lower levels of the former group remains elusive, but could be due to a decreased absorption by the gut, an increased uptake by tissues, or a half dozen other fates for arginine (see 4). Not surprisingly, there was nothing resembling a "time release" effect.
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RE: The Biggest Scam in Supplement History - 11/21/2006 9:24:37 AM
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tdf700
Posts: 278
Joined: 9/23/2005
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The second study of interest evaluated the effects of NO2 on body composition, muscle strength and endurance (8). For eight weeks, subjects took either 12 grams of NO2 or placebo and underwent a resistance training protocol. At the end of the time period, subjects between groups had no differences in either muscle mass or body fat percentage.
Interestingly, the NO2 group threw an average of 19 pounds onto their bench 1RM, while the placebo group added less than a six pound mean. Does it seem strange to anyone else that this supplement alone supposedly added an average of more than 13 pounds to bench press 1RM over placebo without a -> Insulin -> Nitric Oxide -> Vasodilation -> Nutrient Delivery -> Muscle Growth and Strength
You have to wonder if the compaconcomitant change in muscle mass? This would indicate that the changes are strictly neural in origin, which gets quite complicated and goes beyond the scope of this article.
I'll briefly mention that while nitric oxide itself can have a negative effect on the force of muscle contraction (25), this effect has yet to be shown in humans, and doesn’t warrant serious consideration for our purposes. More importantly, all of the scientific evidence indicates that it's not even possible for us to consume high enough levels of arginine to effectively increase nitric oxide levels! Since this unpublished study is already gracing the advertisements for this supplement, we need to examine the results in a little more detail.
If the subjects in the above study were untrained, they would all add a significant amount of strength without changes in muscle mass within the first several weeks of working out. In this case, these rapid neural adaptations would be expected in both groups, but wouldn't explain how arginine seemingly tripled the improvement in the nervous system activation.
However, since the subjects were in fact trained, the situation is even more puzzling. Unlike novice trainees, strength increases in trained individuals tend to be more a result of muscle growth, which means that there should've been some changes in lean body mass accompanying the other gains. There wasn't.
I would've been impressed, albeit skeptical, by a three or four pound gain over the placebo group on bench press 1RM, but an average of 13 pounds?! Looking at it another way, this means an average gain of two and a half pounds on bench 1RM each week, and this progress is maintained for a whole eight weeks on the same program!
If this trend continued for all exercises, which it presumably does, everyone with these results could easily become a competitive powerlifter. Although such improvements might be theoretically possible, you must remember that these fantastic results were achieved on a training program and diet that normally leads to a mere six pound addition to bench press. Furthermore, to have such incredible strength gains throughout every muscle group, without even the slightest trend for improved muscle growth, demands questioning.
Considering the other research which showed no effect on blood flow and no time release effect, the results just don’t fit. Whether it be improper group selection, outliers in the data, or measurement error, the results presented remain questionable.
With my objective experience as a strength coach, researcher and bodybuilder, I don't believe these results to be possible. Having said that, this article is merely intended to give you the facts that you won’t get anywhere else, and allow you make up your own mind.
Let’s sum of the results of this study and others:
• One group used oral arginine in this study, but oral arginine supplementation doesn't affect blood flow.
• The arginine group used "time release" arginine, but so-called time release arginine is not actually time released.
• The trained individuals in the NO2 group got stronger without increasing muscle growth, but trained individuals get stronger mostly due to muscle growth.
• The training program and diet alone yielded a six pound increase in bench 1RM, yet four grams of NO2 taken three times a day tripled strength gains on the same program.
In short, something just isn't right.
But Wait, I Thought I Felt Something!
I’m sure some people are reading this and thinking, "But I know these products work because I’ve taken them and feel their effects!" While these perceived effects are potent, I submit to you that based on the scientific evidence, this is merely a result of the placebo effect.
The placebo effect is when someone uses an inert substance, which should produce no effect, yet somehow still experiences an effect. This occurs frequently when pharmaceutical companies test a new drug. They give one group the real drug and another group an inert sugar pill. Interestingly, the group receiving the sugar pill often has a series of side effects like dry mouth, headaches, dizziness, adding ten pounds to their bench, etc. — all caused by their own minds!
One famous research analysis calculated the placebo effect to account for 75% of a drug’s effect, although this exact figure remains controversial (19). It’s amazing what dogma we can succumb to in the face of contrary reason and evidence, merely because we want to believe something. This belief, desire and trust all seem to work at the neurological level of the brain (10). This indicates that it’s more than a matter of a few people being tricked by unscrupulous companies.
Unfortunately, the situation is even worse when it comes to sports supplements because of our expectations. Hundreds of advertisements with spectacular claims, combined with our incredibly strong desire to believe that these supplements work, often defeat our poor psyches. I call this a directed placebo effect, because we have not only a simple belief in what the supplement is supposed to do, but a powerful desire to believe in its effectiveness.
What can make our desire to believe in these products even stronger is the very fact that we've already purchased them! After all, recognizing that a product doesn’t work is like admitting that we were duped — something no one wants to do. Hey, I've fallen into this trap too in the past. We're all susceptible.
Even if you still believe in the products in question, you’ll now be aware of this powerful psychological effect.
But What About Growth Hormone Release?
In response to this rather damning article, some companies will scrounge up data showing that arginine can elevate growth hormone levels. While we’ve known for the past decade that this applies only to huge doses infused into the bloodstream, many people will be unaware of this trick.
Now, there's evidence that ingesting 22 grams per day (in a 200 pound man) of arginine aspartate increased nocturnal growth hormone output (5). The peak GH output during sleep was increased by an average of 60%. Unfortunately, only five subjects were studied and one of them had four times the peak output of the others. Without that one oddball subject, the average peak was cut in half! (Again, these are just peak measurements, not total levels.)
Also of note, prolactin increased by an average of 75%. This hormone is associated with decreased Testosterone (7)! What’s really scary is that a mere five grams of arginine consumed during exercise actually decreased the resistance exercise-induced increase in GH output (24)!
The bottom line is that you can forget about arginine and GH stimulation, despite what the advertisements try to tell you.
The Real Secret
Here’s where things get real interesting. You may want to be seated for this, because I’m about to blow the lid off the whole deal.
Arginine is the amino acid known to be the most potent insulin secretagogue, meaning that it causes insulin release from the pancreas (4). Now this is of critical importance, because insulin itself stimulates vasodilation and blood flow (2), and this occurs via elevations in nitric oxide synthesis (27).
So arginine stimulates insulin, and insulin stimulates nitric oxide. Nitric oxide causes vasodilation and increased blood flow. Hmmm… Combining this info with what the scientific literature tells us, we can see that much of arginine’s vasodilatory effect can be attributed to insulin secretion!
In fact, one study examined the extent of this very effect, and the results are shocking. Researchers infused the standard 30 grams of arginine with or without blocking insulin release from the pancreas (15). As usual, the massive arginine infusion increased blood flow. But, when insulin release was blocked, blood flow decreased by 77%!
When the latter experiment was repeated with an insulin infusion, blood flow was completely restored! So, over three-quarters of the increased blood flow response was caused by insulin. While not all arginine-induced blood flow can be attributed to insulin, you must remember that these studies use the equivalent of over 40 grams orally ingested arginine, which isn't even possible to tolerate.
(in reply to tdf700)
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RE: The Biggest Scam in Supplement History - 11/21/2006 9:25:46 AM
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tdf700
Posts: 278
Joined: 9/23/2005
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The Revised Theory:
Arginine -> Insulin -> Nitric Oxide -> Vasodilation -> Nutrient Delivery -> Muscle Growth and Strength
You have to wonder if the companies who produce these supplements knew this when they began to market them. If they did, then they intentionally swindled people. If they didn’t, then they clearly didn’t have any idea what they were asking people to put into their bodies. Either way, it’s lose-lose for them.
To make things worse, AKG is being shown to play a role in stimulating insulin secretion (23), suggesting that companies may have indeed been trying to pull the wool over our eyes the whole time.
While this addition may seem beneficial, you have to remember that we still have no real evidence even suggesting that any of these products work at reasonable doses. And don't forget, an increase in insulin levels (and therefore blood flow) is all too easy to obtain without NO products.
Why would we use arginine to stimulate blood flow when we can get direct effects by manipulating insulin? In Part II of this article, I'll tell you how to do that without arginine supplements. The good news is, you're probably already doing it!
Summary
• Arginine blood flow stimulators ("nitric-oxide" or "NO2" supplements) have been shown to increase vasodilation, but only in unfed people receiving enormous doses through an IV.
• Oral arginine supplementation doesn't affect blood flow.
• A dose as low as 10 grams has been associated with gastric upset when consumed orally. This dose has no significant effect on glycogen storage, even if it didn't cause diarrhea.
• Time release arginine is supposed to lead to a "perpetual pump" effect. New studies have shown this not to be the case.
• NO2 was shown to have no effect compared to a placebo on body composition or muscle strength.
• It's not possible for us to consume high enough levels of arginine to effectively increase nitric oxide levels.
• Copycat NO2 products are no better than the original supplement. In fact, those that contain glycocyamine should be avoided because of potential health concerns.
• If you think these products work for you, then you'd better look into the placebo effect.
• Arginine might temporarily elevate growth hormone levels, but only if you're able to take unrealistic doses. There's little evidence to support that this short term increase in GH would do anything for your physique anyway.
• In one study, arginine aspartate was shown to increase prolactin by an average of 75%. Prolactin is associated with decreased Testosterone levels.
• Five grams of arginine consumed during resistance exercise was shown to decrease normal exercise-induced GH output.
• The positive benefits of oral arginine supplementation can only be achieved through doses higher than the human body can handle. And most (but not all) of this effect is mediated by insulin. So if you want to have blood flow increases equivalent to a huge IV arginine infusion, just manipulate insulin through other means (which will be discussed in the next article.)
About the Author
David J. Barr is a Doctoral student at the prestigious University of Texas Medical Branch amino acid metabolism lab, which is almost single handedly responsible for our pre and post-workout nutrition information. An accomplished varsity strength coach, he has certifications with the NSCA and USA Track and Field. In addition to his work for NASA at the Johnson Space Center, David’s research has involved everything from the cellular basis of muscle breakdown to work on critically ill catabolic patients.
(in reply to tdf700)
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RE: The Biggest Scam in Supplement History - 11/21/2006 9:26:58 AM
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tdf700
Posts: 278
Joined: 9/23/2005
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References
1. Adams MR, Forsyth CJ, Jessup W, Robinson J, Celermajer DS. Oral -arginine inhibits platelet aggregation but does not enhance endothelium-dependent dilation in healthy young men. J. Am. Coll. Cardiol. 26 (1995), pp. 1054—1061
2. Baron AD. Hemodynamic actions of insulin. Am J Physiol. 1994 Aug;267(2 Pt 1):E187-202
3. Baron AD, Tarshoby M, Hook G, Lazaridis EN, Cronin J, Johnson A, Steinberg HO. Interaction between insulin sensitivity and muscle perfusion on glucose uptake in human skeletal muscle: evidence for capillary recruitment. Diabetes. 2000 May;49(5):768-74
4. Beaumier L, Castillo L, Ajami AM, Young VR. Urea cycle intermediate kinetics and nitrate excretion at normal and "therapeutic" intakes of arginine in humans. Am J Physiol. 1995 Nov;269(5 Pt 1):E884-96
5. Besset A, Bonardet A, Rondouin G, Descomps B, Passouant P. Increase in sleep related GH and Prl secretion after chronic arginine aspartate administration in man. Acta Endocrinol (Copenh). 1982 Jan;99(1):18-23
6. Bode-Boger SM, Boger RH, Galland A, Tsikas D, Frolich JC. L-arginine-induced vasodilation in healthy humans: pharmacokinetic-pharmacodynamic relationship. Br J Clin Pharmacol. 1998 Nov;46(5):489-97
7. Buvat J, Lemaire A. Endocrine screening in 1,022 men with erectile dysfunction: clinical significance and cost-effective strategy. J Urol. 1997 Nov;158(5):1764-7
8. Campbell B, Baer J, Roberts M, Vacanti T, Marcello B, Thomas A, Kerksick C, Wilborn, C, Rohle D, Taylor L, Rasmussen C, Greenwood M, Wilson R, Kreider R. Effects of arginine alpha-ketoglutarate supplementation on body composition and training adaptations. Sports Nutrition Review Journal 1 (1): S10, 2004
9. Castillo L, Sanchez M, Vogt J, Chapman TE, DeRojas-Walker TC, Tannenbaum SR, Ajami AM, Young VR. Plasma arginine, citrulline, and ornithine kinetics in adults, with observations on nitric oxide synthesis. Am J Physiol. 1995 Feb;268(2 Pt 1):E360-7
10. Chaput de Saintonge DM, Herxheimer A. Harnessing placebo effects in health care Lancet. 1994 Oct 8;344(8928):995-8
11. Chin-Dusting JP, Alexander CT, Arnold PJ, Hodgson WC, Lux AS, Jennings GL. Effects of in vivo and in vitro -arginine supplementation on healthy human vessels. J. Cardiovasc. Pharmacol. 28 (1996), pp. 158—166
12. Chin-Dusting JP, Kaye DM, Lefkovits J, Wong J, Bergin P, Jennings GL. Dietary supplementation with -arginine fails to restore endothelial function in forearm resistance arteries in patients with severe heart failure. J. Am. Coll. Cardiol. 27 (1996), pp. 1207—1213
13. Dela F, Mikines KJ, Tronier B, Galbo H. Diminished arginine-stimulated insulin secretion in trained men. J Appl Physiol. 1990 Jul;69(1):261-7
14. Gater DR, Gater DA, Uribe JM, Bunt JC. Effects of arginine/lysine supplementation and resistance training on glucose tolerance. J Appl Physiol. 1992 Apr;72(4):1279-84
15. Giugliano D, Marfella R, Verrazzo G, Acampora R, Coppola L, Cozzolino D, D'Onofrio F The vascular effects of L-Arginine in humans. The role of endogenous insulin. J Clin Invest. 1997 Feb 1;99(3):433-8
16. Hardin DS, Azzarelli B, Edwards J, Wigglesworth J, Maianu L, Brechtel G, Johnson A, Baron A, Garvey WT. Mechanisms of enhanced insulin sensitivity in endurance-trained athletes: effects on blood flow and differential expression of GLUT 4 in skeletal muscles. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995 Aug;80(8):2437-46
17. Hishikawa K, Nakaki T, Tsuda M, Esumi H, Ohshima H, Suzuki H, Saruta T, Kato R. Effect of systemic L-arginine administration on hemodynamics and nitric oxide release in man. Jpn Heart J. 1992 Jan;33(1):41-8
18. Kerksick C, Campbell B, Taylor L., Wilborn C, Rasmussen C, Vacanti T, Greenwood M, Bowden R, Wilson R, Kreider R. Pharmacokinetic profile of time released and non-time released Arginine. Sports Nutrition Review Journal 1 (1): S9, 2004
19. Kirsch I, and Sapirstein G. Listening to Prozac but Hearing Placebo:
A Meta-Analysis of Antidepressant Medication Prevention & Treatment, Volume 1, Article 0002a, posted June 26, 1998
20. Koopman R, Wagenmakers AJ, Manders RJ, Zorenc AH, Senden JM, Gorselink M, Keizer HA, van Loon LJ. The combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases post-exercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. In Press 2005
21. Kurz S, Harrison DG. Insulin and the arginine paradox. J Clin Invest. 1997 Feb 1;99(3):369-70
22. Ivy JL, Goforth HW Jr, Damon BM, McCauley TR, Parsons EC, Price TB.Early postexercise muscle glycogen recovery is enhanced with a carbohydrate-protein supplement. J Appl Physiol. 2002 Oct;93(4):1337-44
23. Macdonald MJ, Fahien LA, Brown LJ, Hasan NM, Buss JD, Kendrick MA. Perspective: emerging evidence for signaling roles of mitochondrial anaplerotic products in insulin secretion Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 288: E1-E15, 2005
24. Marcell TJ, Taaffe DR, Hawkins SA, Tarpenning KM, Pyka G, Kohlmeier L, Wiswell RA, Marcus R. Oral arginine does not stimulate basal or augment exercise-induced GH secretion in either young or old adults. J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 1999 Aug;54(8):M395-9
25. Richmonds CR, Kaminski HJ. Nitric oxide synthase expression and effects of nitric oxide modulation on contractility of rat extraocular muscle., FASEB J. 2001 Aug;15(10):1764-70
26. Robinson TM, Sewell DA, Greenhaff PL. L-arginine ingestion after rest and exercise: effects on glucose disposal. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Aug;35(8):1309-15
27. Steinberg HO, Brechtel G, Johnson A, Fineberg N, Baron AD. Insulin-mediated skeletal muscle vasodilation is nitric oxide dependent. A novel action of insulin to increase nitric oxide release. Clin Invest. 1994 Sep;94(3):1172-9
28. Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE, Wolfe RR. Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Aug;281(2):E197-206
29. Yaspelkis, BB, III, and Ivy JL. The effect of a carbohydrate-arginine supplement on post-exercise carbohydrate metabolism. Int J Sport Nutr 9: 241-250, 1999
30. Zawadzki KM, Yaspelkis BB 3rd, Ivy JL. Carbohydrate-protein complex increases the rate of muscle glycogen storage after exercise. J Appl Physiol. 1992 May;72(5):1854-9
(in reply to tdf700)
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RE: The Biggest Scam in Supplement History - 11/21/2006 10:30:57 AM
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KiDnGo
Posts: 190
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for the love of god... stfu already, this is a supplement review forum... post your propaganda bs in the nutrition forum.
_____________________________
6'1.5/23yo - 12/14/06 - 206.2lbs
Gaspari Superpump250 & Sizeon (Pre & During Wokrout)
Tri-Methylean + Hydroxycut Hardcore (Pre-Cardio)
NB Zero Carb Isopure Whey (Post Workout)
Universal Animal Pak
Fish Oil
Healthy, Very Clean Dieting
(in reply to tdf700)
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RE: The Biggest Scam in Supplement History - 11/21/2006 10:42:28 AM
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twistedlink
Posts: 8344
Joined: 5/31/2005
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I think hes just posting articles
He posted a protein topic and didnt believe it, he realised it was a false article, hes just posting this so more knowledge is on the boards
as to the science of it, i havent exactly got this far into my course yes, but im sure il find something in my biochem book
Though TBH i have always thought NO was a waste of time whenever i researched it online chemically only.
Never get info from supp sites-they can fod you off with false science easily
find out what a supp contains, and research them ingredients in non supp based sites.
thats the only way to truly get the unbiased unadvertised truth, and NO is pretty dangerous chemically.
_____________________________
It has come to my attention that others are getting there results, but not me, this is racism!
(in reply to KiDnGo)
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RE: The Biggest Scam in Supplement History - 11/21/2006 12:11:22 PM
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tdf700
Posts: 278
Joined: 9/23/2005
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KiDnGo the whole article is about NO supplements, so I think the proper place for it is under supplements. This section is about supplement discussions, not just reviews.
Also, I do not appreciate being cursed at in real life or over the internet - it is not acceptable to me, and should not be a part of this board.
Please if you feel that this article is propaganda, explaine your reasons, and let us all discuss it, I truly look forward to your reasoning.
In this particular article, David J. Barr, actually seems to have put together a very good argument. He has documented his article very well and listed his resources. The article is about a product that is talked about quite frequently here, so in my opinion it is very relevant, and I would like to know what other people thought about the article.
< Message edited by tdf700 -- 11/21/2006 12:14:44 PM >
(in reply to twistedlink)
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RE: The Biggest Scam in Supplement History - 11/21/2006 12:18:15 PM
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veggeep
Posts: 3043
Joined: 10/10/2005
From: Reston, VA
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Allow me 
There's one easy way to spot a bullsh*t artist trying to promote a worthless (or not sufficiently-hyped) product by bashing another. Let me give you a hint:
quote:
I’ll not only blow the lid off of the whole scam, but I’ll also reveal to you a better hemodilator that's been proven for years to increase blood flow, aid in recovery, and stimulate muscle protein synthesis.
Ever heard the phrase, "Methinks thou dost protest too much"? Case in point: nine tenths of this so-call "article" is aimed at debunking claims that NO ONE with half a brain has made about Argenine supplementation.
Increased protein synthesis??
Growth Hormone realease??
Who's claiming that?
Will it make you sick in high doses on an empty stomach? Of course it will. So will water.
All I know is, I experienced pumps and vascularity during and after workouts on Nitrix that I have never experienced before taking it or since. But let's disregard the cold, irrefutible, physical FACTS -according to this Salesman (don't let the "prestigious doctoral student blah blah blah" sh*t fool you -any supplement company can buy PhD's to toe their party line), I'm just another guillible, brainwashed idiot who would've had the same results on a placebo.
The only gullible idiots out there are marketing types who think they can disprove gravity.
Doubt everything you read (yes -INCLUDING THIS). I doubted the original PRO-Argenine literature and formed my OWN opinions about it. I would urge anyone (who has no compelling medical reason to avoid Argenine) to do the same.
_____________________________
Yes, that's me in my avatar, and NO, I don't look like that today. That was taken back in Jan '07, and I lost most of that progress when I slacked off last year. I'm on my way back, tho, and I'm using that photo for inspiration.
(in reply to twistedlink)
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RE: The Biggest Scam in Supplement History - 11/21/2006 12:19:37 PM
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Godzmarine
Posts: 856
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: Philadelphia
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Stop posting this crap.
(in reply to tdf700)
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RE: The Biggest Scam in Supplement History - 11/21/2006 12:38:14 PM
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tdf700
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thank you veggeep I appreciate your insite and your comments.
No Godzmarine, I will not stop trying to learn from other people opinions.
I value the opinions of the people on this board.
(in reply to Godzmarine)
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RE: The Biggest Scam in Supplement History - 11/21/2006 1:08:55 PM
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tdf700
Posts: 278
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
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Avaric3 - I never claimed to have written it, yes I did find it on somewhere else on the interenet, but does that mean we can not discuss it here?
(in reply to Avaric3)
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RE: The Biggest Scam in Supplement History - 11/21/2006 1:27:17 PM
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gzinkl
Posts: 3216
Joined: 3/23/2005
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
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Luckily not ALL PhD's can be bought. I understand MD's are a much easier target...right Lynx?!?
It is tacky, among other things, to rip an article from another source and not give credit to the source--even on the internet.
In the USA, rights in copyright attach as soon as you've created something in a "tangible medium." Even though no one is probably going to pursue a copyright infringement case against you for ripping their article (I assume you didn't get permission, you're not profiting from the article, and your pockets are not deep), it is still illegal.
This is not legal advice. I'm an attorney, but not your attorney (God, I've wanted to be able to say that forever!). Thank you and good night.
_____________________________
"If there's nothing else that's relevant, I'll be leaving now"
"Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground"
(in reply to tdf700)
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RE: The Biggest Scam in Supplement History - 11/21/2006 2:43:17 PM
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gzinkl
Posts: 3216
Joined: 3/23/2005
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rippedchick
Eww. I worked for attorneys. They were all self-absorbed, over-dramatic and rude. I hope you're nice to your assistant gzinkl.
Don't worry, Bobbi. I came into this as a second career after over a decade as a PhD scientist. Besides, my assistant LOVES me. She will do anything for me. I spoil her regularly with coffee, suprise flowers, plants, an occasional chocolate, and she tells me EVERYTHING that's going on in the firm. I always say "please" and "thank you" and apologize when I know I'm asking for something stressful or quickly. I always beg for the firm to give her huge raises because she's invaluable to me (and to the other two attorneys she works for--we're in consensus here!)
Besides, I'm not a trial attorney! Those guys have to be more dramatic--they sometimes just forget that they aren't always in front of a jury!
_____________________________
"If there's nothing else that's relevant, I'll be leaving now"
"Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground"
(in reply to rippedchick)
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RE: The Biggest Scam in Supplement History - 11/21/2006 2:53:19 PM
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Carrhart
Posts: 1195
Joined: 3/28/2006
Status: offline
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They work for me..I like them. Placebo effect or not, they get me into the gym and make me work hard to get my gains.
Scam or not. I'll continue to use them, thanks for "your"
opinion.
(in reply to gzinkl)
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RE: The Biggest Scam in Supplement History - 11/21/2006 3:04:34 PM
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twistedlink
Posts: 8344
Joined: 5/31/2005
Status: offline
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Im glad tdf is posting this stuff
It means anyone who HAS read it and reads it here will know its rubbish.
No question is a stupid question
tdf is NOT saying this is his opinion, he is COPYING other peoples articles and PASTING them here for us to debate and put our opinions across
hes not trying to sell you anything (the guy in the article seems to be though) all hes doing is trying to gain more knowledge, and through experiencing these articles he can make better judgments to false ones.
each and every article he posts he will have (hopefully) mature people just state its rights and wrongs, and he can learn from that.
Stop shouting at him, hes teaching people here and allowing people to see what fake articles are like so it helps you not buy in to its rubbish.
_____________________________
It has come to my attention that others are getting there results, but not me, this is racism!
(in reply to Carrhart)
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RE: The Biggest Scam in Supplement History - 11/21/2006 3:11:01 PM
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tdf700
Posts: 278
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
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Thank you twistedlink!!!!
I do read other sites, but I have come to truly value the opinions and knowledge base of the people on this board.
Since we are here to discuss bodybuilding, I had hoped for a discusion about this article and other articles.
(in reply to twistedlink)
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RE: The Biggest Scam in Supplement History - 11/21/2006 3:13:08 PM
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veggeep
Posts: 3043
Joined: 10/10/2005
From: Reston, VA
Status: offline
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Just because this post lacks an introduction, I hardly think that equates to someone trying to take credit for the content. There is a very obvious blurb about the author, as well as complete bibliographical references given, and I didn't have any trouble distinguishing him from tdf700.
tdf700 is well within his rights to post the material (granted, he might want to preface it a little better in the future, but I see no reason to jump down his throat about it). I welcome any material like this -whether it be a legitimate article with a research bent, or marketing masquerading as science.
I happen to be of the opinion that the latter applies to this particular article.
The point is, people read stuff like this every day and either swallow it hook, line and sinker, or they reflexively question it. Clearly, we all have a skeptical streak, so let's apply our energies constructively to helping others (who may not be so certain) understand why things like this need to be questioned and challenged.
You can't very well help someone understand something if you don't give them the chance to ask the question in the first place
[Edit]
TL and I were apparently seperated at birth... 'cause we always seem to be posting the same thing at the same time 
< Message edited by veggeep -- 11/21/2006 3:14:31 PM >
_____________________________
Yes, that's me in my avatar, and NO, I don't look like that today. That was taken back in Jan '07, and I lost most of that progress when I slacked off last year. I'm on my way back, tho, and I'm using that photo for inspiration.
(in reply to Carrhart)
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