Superskinnyman posts again

Check out this regimen.  http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=04-073-training
 
Don't give up!!!  Fitness is all about trial and error, especially if you are going on a set workout regimen which is suggested.  Although you will achieve the best results with a professionally designed regimen, found free online, you must keep in mind that they have been tested and proven on only so many people.  Everybody is different, so it will take some trial and error to find one that works. 
 
I suggest reading http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/Stop_fking_around_and_lift_like_you_mean_it/m_127347/tm.htm
 
if you haven't already.  You get a ton out of compound exercises such as deadlifts and squats.  Keep reading and DO NOT give up.  It shouldn't be costing you a lot of money!  You could bulk with much healthier stuff than that GNC crap anyways.
 
Bulk with natural foods like complex carbs and brown/wild rice.  I'm personally not bulking and do not intend to for a long time, but I would reccommend Hypertophy Specific Training (HST).  Many fast paced workouts are geared towards increasing power, which is fine but it's just meant for the playing field, not necessarily for the mirror ;).  Again, drop the GNC stuff and look for other high calorie foods to take in. 

ORIGINAL: vdk_au

jcs, don't listen to MrBafer at all! But seriously 25 second rest b/w set's is not sufficient enough, and you'll burn yourself out pretty soon.

And drinking 6litres of milk is highly not recommended. Keep your intake of milk to more than 3-4 glasses.

 
25 to 30 seconds is an awesome rest, it keeps the heart-rate up and you will find that you will not need as much cardio. As for burn-out what a load of rott, your movements in the exercise is what controls the load and also controls the optimum lift weight. The Joe Wider principle is 30 second break between sets, Zane followed 25 second breaks for increased cardio tension, Yates did 2 sets with increased weight with reduced time between sets to maximise the burn.
 
You won't do jack crap if you sit there doing nothing, get pumped by maximum results. Leave the guys that hog the benches doing their 3 sets over 10 minutes with limited results. If you want the results, pump iron... not sit on the bench. Have a break between body parts, sure, but not sets.
 
For milk, the kid is poor with no money, he cannot afford to purchase kg's of chicken, or 10 tins of tuna daily, or the $240 for the week's lunch and snack menu. He wants to put on weight... let the kid go for it.
 
100% milk is a rich protein source, stay away from carbohydrate rubish. Carbohydrate has a higher chance of being transferred into fat than protein... you will have a lot of arguments on this subject... Carbohydrates suck, unless you do a lot of cardio and you need the energy.
 
Look at every the majority of diets... milk, milk, milk, milk... milk is the poor mans protein. Drink heaps, its full of all good things, including natural bacteria to boost your immune system.

Do you know how hard it is to eat sufficient calories if you are not eating carbs?  Second of all, i you don't take in fructose and glucose you can't replace what your muscles burn, and they will eat themselves.  Basically, you would be going to the gym and making your muscles smaller. Carbs are crap?  Wow. 

ORIGINAL: danmac75

Do you know how hard it is to eat sufficient calories if you are not eating carbs?  Second of all, i you don't take in fructose and glucose you can't replace what your muscles burn, and they will eat themselves.  Basically, you would be going to the gym and making your muscles smaller. Carbs are crap?  Wow. 

 
Well I am around 26k - 56k calories a day, and I'd say I get more than enough sugars.
 
If your concerned about dextrose levels, your liver will synthesize glucose from non-carbohydrate food. Starch is also converted glucose, a slice of bread will probably convert to glucose. In fact Lactose, which is the sugar in milk, is a glucose.
 
Again with fructose, if you intake levels are higher (gaining weight) your more than likely having enough every day. If you have 1 hamburger with onion, you've probaly had enough fructose to sustain your muscle mass.
 
There are heaps of fights on carbohydrates, but carbohydrates do not build body mass (other than fat), this guy is wanting to put on weight, let him go for it. 

carbohydrates do not build body mass (other than fat)

Carbohydrates represent a quality fuel that is burned (following nutrient processing by one's body, of course) during exercise (resistance training or cardiovasular activity). That exerted effort builds lean tissue. To suggest that carbohydrates are only good for body fat contribution is simply not correct.

Have I misunderstood you, perhaps?

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"Push your limits — define aggressive goals"
_________.P R O G R E S S___P I C S

Would you say, cursor, that you should eat less carbs on your rest day?  I will be able to find out for myself what my body needs once I start measuring my results and such, but what do you do?  I remember you writing about taking your daily calorie requirements, and multiplying them by 7 to get a weekly calorie expenditure.  Then, dividing up those calories to coordinate with what you're doing on any given day.  Since you recommended a decrease in calories on off days, would you reccommend cutting those calories from carbohydrates like rice, oatmeal, and quinoa?

Carbohydrates are fuel, energy... not mass. Muscle tissue is not related to carbohydrates at all... and muscle mass is not related to the energy that you exert (well not for mass building).
 
The kid is not wanting a marathon, triathlon or swim 50klms for breakfast.. he is wanting to gain mass, muscle mass. I assume he is a skinny little bugger.
 
If he consumed 50k calories a day on carbohydrates and being a noobie, I'd love to see his muscle to fat ratio.

MrBafner :: Carbohydrates are fuel, energy... not mass. Muscle tissue is not related to carbohydrates at all... and muscle mass is not related to the energy that you exert (well not for mass building).

Of course carbs are not "mass" (lean body mass?). You can, of course, say the same of dietary protien and dietary fat. They are dietary macronutrients/fuel that is processed by the body. If the dietary intake is right, and the exertion level proper, then lean tissue will be added (as the old is naturally discarded).
 

MrBafner :: If he consumed 50k calories a day on carbohydrates and being a noobie, I'd love to see his muscle to fat ratio.

My guess is that as a beginner, 5000 calories a day (regardless of macronutrient form) is out of line and will result in accumulated body fat.
 
Recognition of the balanced value gained by eating the right amounts of 1) proteins, 2) carbohydrates, and 3) fats (combined with dietary fiber and water), will lead you to your end goal of health & fitness faster than any more myopic perspective.
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danmac :: Would you say, cursor, that you should eat less carbs on your rest day?

Yes, that would make sense to me. Ask yourself how your body processes any particular food (or combination of foods), then choose foods based on your body's current ready-state.

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"Push your limits — define aggressive goals"
_________.P R O G R E S S___P I C S

So you're saying that carbohydrates do not fuel your anaerobic workouts at all? 

Are you asking me, danmac75? I previously posted this:

cursor :: Carbohydrates represent a quality fuel that is burned (following nutrient processing by one's body, of course) during exercise (resistance training or cardiovasular activity). That exerted effort builds lean tissue.

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"Push your limits — define aggressive goals"
_________.P R O G R E S S___P I C S

No I was asking Bafner.  For some reason I didn't see your post when I went to write my response.  That happens sometimes on here.
 

Also, cursor, I'll definitely look into eating less carbs on rest days.  I really like your previous suggestion on a different post about calculating your weekly calories and eating more on workout days and less on rest days, and I'll definitely consider trying that.  Once I start measuring my body fat, I'll no doubt need to adjust my diet, so if I find I'm gaining more fat than muscle, I'll probably cut carbs down a little on off days, and add calories on workout days. 
 
As to whether carbs are related to muscle gains, it's pretty clear to me.  For me, I know, complex carbs give me a lot of energy.  Not only do carbs play an important role for me  in fueling my workouts and allowing me to lift heavier weight, or just workout better all around, but for everyone  glycogen is burned lifting weights.  It's simply the only energy your muscles use, wheras with light cardio your body can use glycogen then switch to burning fat once glycogen is gone.  From what I understand, your muscles will essentially break themselves down to create more glycogen.  Carbs are a must, and this is the first time I've heard it any other way.  However, to be fair to MrBafner, there are exceptions to every rule and maybe some people are simply more responsive to high protein/low carb nutrition. 
 
However, how does it make sense to reccommend that to a beginner?  Everyone needs to find the right amount of nutrients for themselves, so starting out at one extreme end of the spectrum is not a good idea.  The most logical way to start your nutrition as a beginner, no matter what your goal is, is to start somewhere in the middle with a good balance of nutrients and to adjust by looking at your weekly BF% measurements, muscle measurements, and judging how certain nutrients make you feel. 

Another important point to keep in mind is that carbohydrates (depending on the quality of choice) can offer nutrients for general good health (beyond simple fuel for activity) that other macronutrient forms cannot. Fresh fruit & vegetables and whole grains have potential to play a large role in longevity -- not to mention taste. Whoops ... I guess I just mentioned it.
 

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"Push your limits — define aggressive goals"
_________.P R O G R E S S___P I C S

No, if your eating a high protein diet your probably getting enough carbohydrates, and nutrients to cover more than your workload.

If your a skinny guy, superskinnyman, then you have veins, bones, ribs, etc showing and not a great deal of body fat. Sure, carbs will convert into fat, but not on your metabolism level.

From what you just said and your energy levels are depleted and you feel the need to recharge by eating heaps of carbohydrates, then its obvious your not resting enough. You probably drink far too much caffiene, have too many stimulants in your diets, and your energy is probably being spent or stored in other factors.

There is absolutely nothing new about the high protein diets, and nothing new about people deleting carbs from their diets.

Before you start debating the idea of carbs / protein / fats you need to start thinking short or long term.

An example.. short term, drink alkaseltza (I think it is) and lots of fluids and you will swell up like a balloon. But it won't last, will be gone in a week, the water retention will deplete and your hard work gone.

Carbohydrates are simliar.. you can store them or not store them in fat form. Now that depends upon you and your diet, how many meals per day to your ernergy output. Heck a muesli bar may be enough to give you enough energy, but its not going to build mass.

Are you wanting to put on muscle mass or just throw weights around and look like your doing something?

You have to start asking yourself questions, why are you training? why are you drinking 13 cups of coffee a day or maybe another caffiene source (tea, coke, chocolate, etc)? why is your energy being depleted?

Most people turn to protein diets to lose body fat and maintain muscle mass. You on the other hand don't have either, but need to grow your muscle mass and that is protein... protein... protein, muscle mass is protein. Carbohydrates will not build muscle mass.

At your level of training, rest will provide enough energy.