Unfortunately, there can never be any "evidence" seeing that I don't believe there's ever been a squat VS deadlift study.

On the contrary, the two movements work together.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I think we should contact a university and DEMAND a study done...

If I shake my fist hard enough at them...I think they may just do it...

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

LOL it would do very good. It'd be interesting to see results on studies like that.

I've always wondered the percentage of testosterone released during exercise, what testosterone exactly does when associated with muscle tissue.

I guess if enough people requested it somewhere, they'd do a test.

It'd be difficult to find someone to be the source of the program though. For example, two twin brothers that are the exact same strength starting out, have one brother deadlift 3X per week for 6 weeks then the other brother squat 3X per week for six weeks. Then at the end of the six weeks see who's bench press went up higher and etc. it'd be an interesting study and I'm sure everyone could learn from it.

I found the study I was referring to while arguing with another guy on another board. He's against compound only training saying it's horribly wrong and refuses to listen otherwise. He's one of those "strict bodybuilder" type of guys who refuses to compromise beliefs. I said something about squats releasing testosterone and that having assistance with adding mass to your arms if you would work your arms and then he sent me some study saying squats and deadlifts release testosterone and then before you can rack the weight they dissipate back to normal levels.

I researched the study, and it concluded that squats and deadlifts release testosterone and depended upon the volume and intensity of the movements, most people had an increase of testosterone that dissipated back to normal or slightly above normal levels anywhere from a few hours or a few days post-squatting/deadlifting. So he pretty much just posted a study without even reading what it said LOL.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP


I agree, smoundzou.

Even if the squatter developed a strong enough posterior chain via squatting to keep him up with the deadlifter, his grip would probably fail before his legs would preventing him from deadlifting on the same level as the other guy.

Deadlifts working the triceps, pretty much the whole entire (upper and lower) back, traps, etc. he would definitely have the advantage over the squatter with bench pressing. Lats being eccentric stabilizers, triceps being synergists and traps being worked those are all advantages the deadlifts have over the squatter.

I just find most people that say squats are overall better have usually been on a routine that squats 3X per week. This neglects deadlifting 3X per week (usually) and if you're doing 15 total sets of squats per week VS 5 sets of deadlifts that isn't a fair comparison.

 
Not trying to argue anything. Just want to ask, how do deadlifts work triceps muscle?

5'8.1"
Age = 20 
started in February 16th 2007: 58kg (127.6lbs)
current : around 79-80kg (173.8lb-176lb)

When I said synergist in the thread you quoted though, I was referring to synergists during the bench press, but since the elbows are extended they are put into a position of flexsion during the range of motion of a deadlift. 

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I had a little more time to think about why squats possibly release more GH as opposed to the deadlift.

So this may be a crack pot theory, but here goes.

The squat places the weight on the body, not the ground like the deadlift. This Places a huge amount of pressure on your spine. The pituitary gland releases so much more GH as opposed to other movements including the deadlifts to protect the body. As in if your in a calorie surpluse, the GH is meant to put on mass everywhere on your body to protect for the next bombardment of squats. Because the squats do work the entire body.

So thats my crack pot theory, its basically a primitive instinct thing perhaps. The weight on the back presents much more of a threat to the body as opposed to picking something up. So the GH is released in bigger amounts for protecting.

Perhaps the body views it as squating has the potential to crush the spine and body, as opposed to the deadlift where your just trying to pick something up.

I dunno, im basing this on the few studies I have read being squats as #1 on the GH release.

:P

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

You don't give up, do you? ...lol

I'm really unsure but the voting I believe ends in a few hours, so people that didn't vote and have an opinion on this - get your vote in!

On the contrary, I think a possible e-mail to a University to do a test on mass production in squats VS deadlifts would be great... then share the results, it'd be a great experience.

I mean it's not just something discussbodybuilding has considered, I saw on other forums (T-Nation included) that it's been going on for years...

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I really think Squats produce more GH than Deads. So yeah im going to keep going with it ;D

Besides it needed to be bumped and I was thinking a little about it.

Whether my theory is way off or not, im still going off the studies I have read. I wonder who and where we could get ahold of that would take this question seriously. The results from this poll show deadlifts being ahead, but I already posted why that is probably the case.

As your right im sure this topic has been around before, I cant believe we were the first ones who thought about doing some type of a test to compare the two lifts, so maybe its already been done somewhere.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

MVP not only T antion or DBB but every Body building forum site has had this discussion..and guess what theyve all ended up as the same way as we have,,,
around a 2:1 ratio to deadlifts but ofcourse without any proof...
One major reason i feel this ratio is skewed towards deadlifts is because they are relatively easier to do hence more people end up doing heavy ass dlifts as compared to heavy ass squats thus loving dlifts more..
plus because it seems and probably does use more muscles than the squat...
But i still feel what a squat does is far more superior
p.s:may be because i find it VERY VERY tough :P

Well the only person I know that would know about a definite study being done is Dan.

Every time I yahoo squats VS deadlifts it's never a real comparison.

Perhaps I can do a yahoo search on weightlifting science forums or University science forums.

(Int J Sports Med. 1991 Apr;12(2):228-35) << Here's a similar study.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Here is a quote I found from this source... feel free to search it to see if it's legit.

(Int J Sports Med. 1991 Apr;12(2):228-35)

"Resistance training in general, increases testosterone and growth hormone, during and immediately after post excercise. It has been shown in many studies, including a published study Int J Sports Med. 1991 Apr;12(2):228-35 done on both men and women during resistance excercise. and deadlifts increase GH and Testosterone, more than other compound excercises during excercise."

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

what other compound exercises?

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Any other compound exercise.

If you search the study, you'll find it's been brought up in a lot of discussions. The study said "even dumbell curls and triceps extensions release testosterone and GH... just not as significantly".

Type that in under yahoo or Google and you'll get a lot of sites about it.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Another poll were a group of people where asked which movement they would perform if they could only do one...

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/pollresults.php

Of course they would choose the one they felt they gained the most mass with..

To be fair, deadlifts won this by double the votes, it won on that poll, it won on the T-Nation discussion and we've concluded it overloads more muscles and according to that study it releases more testosterone.

With all of these factors in mind, it's probably safe to say it's the biggest mass builder.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

i beg to differ...
if one deadlifts alone ull gain very negligible mass on ur legs....i did so for a long time as i did my workouts at home and hence did not squat...
its hardly been 2 mnths that ive squatted an i can see MASSIVE differences in my legs...
Now Im 6 feet tall outta which i have 40" legs and a 23" torso
approx ..that makes my legs 66% of the actual body i can work out...
and as squat builds legs undoubtedly much mucg more than deadlifts i believe they are the ultimare mass builder....
and deadlifts are the ultimate strength builders...

How can you label one movement as a "mass builder" and another as a "strength builder"?

Mass is determined by calories...

Squats are quad dominant unlike the deadlift that is posterior chain dominant.

No one is says not to do squats... just like no one is saying not to do deadlifts.

If one exercise overloads more muscle, increases more testosterone and double the people that have had great gains say that deadlifts helped them in adding more mass than squats, what else is there to contemplate?

Bench presses have done more for my chest than deadlifts, does that mean benches are a better mass builder? No.

Also if you want to talk about leg development.. for specific hamstring development a hamstring curl would be better in that case than a squat and deadlift. Squats and deadlifts the hamstrings are eccentric stabilizers and nothing more, while the stimulus is there... it cannot be compared to the stimulus of a hamstring curl where the hamstrings would be the concentric movers.. hamstring stimulus directly comes from extension of the hip (stiff-leg deadlift type movement) or flexsion at the knee (hamstring curl)... so if you're talking about leg specific development being the determining factor - then you'd need to be more specific on the area of the leg.. squats, IMO, are the best movement for quad development... but quad development is not the only factor determining leg development. Glutes (deadlifts), hamstrings (hamstring curls/stiff-leg deadlifts), calves (calf raises).

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I'd say squats put more emphasis on the legs, and deads put more emphasis on the back.  Now both squats and deads do it all, but I'm going to choose squats as the better exercise because.....well the legs are the biggest and strongest muscles in your entire body, and FULL squats work the legs more then deads do.  This is apparent because of the legs' range of motion is not as much in the dead as in the squat.

Now lets compare the two lifts:

1.) Squat

Due to the loading of the bar on the back, which is basically trying to push the bar towards the ground because of gravity, you're whole body is being used to opposed that force.  The entire torso is used to stablize the bar/upper body system from falling over.  The legs are the driving force moving the system down and then up.  So the torso (or the "core") is stabilizing, and the legs are acting as both a solid base and the driving force moving the system.

From the time the bar is removed from the rack, the entire body is loaded, and the work has begun.  There is both an eccentric and a concentric portion of this lift, and the entire body is used throughout the whole thing.

2.) Deadlift

This is basically the ultimate "pulling" movement.  The bar starts on the ground, and the body is at rest.  The body goes from 0% to 100% the instant the pull is started.  There is no eccentric portion of the lift prior to the concentric portion (as in a squat or a bench press).   In other lifts, the eccentric portion of the lift aids the concentric via the stretch reflex.  This is a unique factor of this particular lift.  But the body is at rest at all times that the lift is not taking place, unlike the squat, which is constantly loading the body until the bar is placed back in the rack.
 
The actual muscles being used in each lift were already discussed, but as I said, the deadlift targets the back more then the squat, and the range of motion in the legs in only partial to that of the squat.  The deadlift definately works the grip too, whereas the squat doesn't at all. 

The distance of travel of the bar is slightly less for a deadlift then that of a squat too. 

Typically people can use more weight for a deadlift then a squat (many elite powerlifters, on the other hand, don't follow this rule), but again, the body is under stress for a much shorter time period in a deadlift. 

All that being said, I'm still going to have to go with squats as the "better" lift.  Your body is loaded for a much longer time period, the legs are involved much more (both hamstrings and quads, not just quads.....oh, and all the other muscles in the legs too), there is both and eccentric and concetric portion in a squat.  Basically the squat creates a "system" which is the bar + the body.  Hundreds of muscles are involved in stabilizing and moving the "system" in a squat.

I do like deads better, probably because they are easier to do properly, and I can lift more weight, which strokes my ego.  And deads are an EXCELLENT exercise, which should absolutely not be neglected ever.  But my vote still goes for squats.

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

I'll agree squats do more for the legs.

But as stated, hamstrings are only eccentric stabilizers during a squat... during the concentric contraction it involves extension of the knee which is quads.. you hamstrings do not stimulate unless they are extension of the hips where you would be remaining up right (like a stiff leg deadlift)... or knee flexsion which is the opposite of knee extension.

During a triceps extension, your biceps are not worked during the concentric contraction because it's triceps extension and not flexsion... quads/hams are no different.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Squats, the grandfather of all lifts.   

Height 5' 8" Weight  200 lbs Body Fat 16%
Bench 315-Squat 365-Dead 405
Chest-46"/Bicep-16.5"/Waist-37"...UGGH
Thigh-24.5"/Calves 16"

    

MVP


I'll agree squats do more for the legs.

But as stated, hamstrings are only eccentric stabilizers during a squat... during the concentric contraction it involves extension of the knee which is quads.. you hamstrings do not stimulate unless they are extension of the hips where you would be remaining up right (like a stiff leg deadlift)... or knee flexsion which is the opposite of knee extension.

During a triceps extension, your biceps are not worked during the concentric contraction because it's triceps extension and not flexsion... quads/hams are no different.

Eh, I wouldn't compare a squat to a tricep extension.  Nor would I compare the legs to the arms either.
 
The hamstrings play much more of a role in a full, low-bar squat, then simply just as an eccentric stabilizer.  I'd go as far as to say that a low-bar squat is more hamstring dominant then quad dominant.   I don't know the science behind it, but I'm just going by how I feel when I squat heavy.  It's all posterier stuff when I squat.  I don't even feel it in my quads.

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

Target
Quadriceps
Synergists
Gluteus Maximus
Adductor Magnus
Soleus
Dynamic Stabilizers
Hamstrings
Gastrocnemius
Stabilizers
Erector Spinae
Antagonist Stabilizers
Rectus Abdominis
Obliques

http://www.exrx.net/Wei.../Quadriceps/BBSquat.html

That's the link again, they're listed under dynamic stabilizers, easily identified under the eccentric contraction.

During the concentric contraction you're extending the knee therefore it's the quads, that's science. As far as hamstrings VS triceps go... joints are joints, while the leg is extending it's the quads... while the knee is flexing (reverse) it's the hamstrings, therefore you can conclude it's quad dominant and the hamstrings are eccentric stabilizers (seeing that it involves a somewhat flexsion at the knee coming down, but not quite).

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

You guys are funny...I didn't read this all because it's a pure waste of time.

You can discuss or debate as much as you want but you are no gurus, you are no bodybuilders nor powerlifters.
You just have a decent shape and different point of views...what is the meaning of all this.
You never agree on anything...
MVP says something ( I usually agree with him ) and N$ doesn't...then all the arguments are flying.

Can't you just agree that there is more than one way to workout ???
Yous can work, his can also...mine also can work...there is NO PERFECT WAY.

Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

It's called "discuss bodybuilding".  It wouldn't be very much fun if there wasn't anything to debate or discuss.  In fact, the forum wouldn't even exist.

Anyway, just because http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/BBSquat.html
says it, doesn't necessarily mean it's 100% accurate.

If you read starting strength, his opinion says that the hamstrings are dominant in the squat.  Then again, that's only one source too, so it may not be 100% accurate.

Besides, in a deadlift it is knee extension which drives the weight up. Does that mean that a deadlift is quad dominant also?

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

Good point, Bri.

But I've read starting strength, I like somethings and dislike others... I like his squatting advice and deadlifting advice that includes hip drive and I never understood how to execute a deadlift until I watched his videos...

But if the hamstrings are stimulated during knee flexsion, then you can't say hamstrings are the prime movers. Hip drive would utilize a big more of the posterior chain than pushing up from your feet, but the quads would still be the concentric movers.

As far as the deadlift goes, it's pulling from the ground (pulling brings dominant stimulus to the back).

Also, I believe when it said not always accurate it meant other things... like saying anterior delts are synergists during a bench press, aren't they antagonists? As far as the direct muscles targeted though, I believe they're pretty accurate.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Nic


You guys are funny...I didn't read this all because it's a pure waste of time.

You can discuss or debate as much as you want but you are no gurus, you are no bodybuilders nor powerlifters.
You just have a decent shape and different point of views...what is the meaning of all this.
You never agree on anything...
MVP says something ( I usually agree with him ) and N$ doesn't...then all the arguments are flying.

Can't you just agree that there is more than one way to workout ???
Yous can work, his can also...mine also can work...there is NO PERFECT WAY.

Nic, why in the world does it bother you so much when people disagree on a subject?  Like Bri said, the site is discussbodybuilding.com   Isn't it? 
 
And why would you say no one here is a bodybuilder or powerlifter?  To be considered a BBer or PLer all you have to do is practice that method of training?  And as far as Guru goes.. I can't ever remember anyone here proclaiming to be a guru.. at least not being serious.. LOL..
 
There may not be a perfect way to train, but there are optimal ways to train depending on your goal.  Besides, this thread isn't even about right or wrong.. it's about which lift you think is the best overall lift.. Although there may not be an answer.. it's certainly educational and entertaining to hear everyone's point of view.. If you took the time to read through some of the threads here you might even learn a few things.. As we all do.
 
maybe you should take a break from the forums for a while if it bothers you that much..that's what I do.

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

smoundzou

Nic


You guys are funny...I didn't read this all because it's a pure waste of time.

You can discuss or debate as much as you want but you are no gurus, you are no bodybuilders nor powerlifters.
You just have a decent shape and different point of views...what is the meaning of all this.
You never agree on anything...
MVP says something ( I usually agree with him ) and N$ doesn't...then all the arguments are flying.

Can't you just agree that there is more than one way to workout ???
Yous can work, his can also...mine also can work...there is NO PERFECT WAY.

Nic, why in the world does it bother you so much when people disagree on a subject?  Like Bri said, the site is discussbodybuilding.com   Isn't it? 
 
And why would you say no one here is a bodybuilder or powerlifter?  To be considered a BBer or PLer all you have to do is practice that method of training?  And as far as Guru goes.. I can't ever remember anyone here proclaiming to be a guru.. at least not being serious.. LOL..
 
There may not be a perfect way to train, but there are optimal ways to train depending on your goal.  Besides, this thread isn't even about right or wrong.. it's about which lift you think is the best overall lift.. Although there may not be an answer.. it's certainly educational and entertaining to hear everyone's point of view.. If you took the time to read through some of the threads here you might even learn a few things.. As we all do.
 
maybe you should take a break from the forums for a while if it bothers you that much..that's what I do.

 
 
Agreed. At least he didn't lock it.

jlp

smoundzou

Nic


You guys are funny...I didn't read this all because it's a pure waste of time.

You can discuss or debate as much as you want but you are no gurus, you are no bodybuilders nor powerlifters.
You just have a decent shape and different point of views...what is the meaning of all this.
You never agree on anything...
MVP says something ( I usually agree with him ) and N$ doesn't...then all the arguments are flying.

Can't you just agree that there is more than one way to workout ???
Yous can work, his can also...mine also can work...there is NO PERFECT WAY.

Nic, why in the world does it bother you so much when people disagree on a subject?  Like Bri said, the site is discussbodybuilding.com   Isn't it? 
 
And why would you say no one here is a bodybuilder or powerlifter?  To be considered a BBer or PLer all you have to do is practice that method of training?  And as far as Guru goes.. I can't ever remember anyone here proclaiming to be a guru.. at least not being serious.. LOL..
 
There may not be a perfect way to train, but there are optimal ways to train depending on your goal.  Besides, this thread isn't even about right or wrong.. it's about which lift you think is the best overall lift.. Although there may not be an answer.. it's certainly educational and entertaining to hear everyone's point of view.. If you took the time to read through some of the threads here you might even learn a few things.. As we all do.
 
maybe you should take a break from the forums for a while if it bothers you that much..that's what I do.

 
 
Agreed. At least he didn't lock it.

True... but it aint over till the fat lady sings.. LOL... i'm joking Nic

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

There wouldn't be any reason for this topic to be locked, it's been civil and has contained good information on both parties. There's been no flaming at all, just exchange of ideas in a civilized manner.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Nm0ney34


Just because it lists 9;13 does not mean those are the only things worked in the lift, we both know that.

The full clean involves more muscles then both lifts...part of the full clean is a front squat...the beginning of the clean is a deadlift...

so with your logic, why is it not number one in the mass building department?

*I was referring to the arms/shoulders being stabilizers, which is what they are performing. I would like to see someone squat without using their arms to stabilize the bar.

Your legs and core stabilize the weight much more than anything in your arms/shoulders. The weight is resting on your back/shoulders and therefore requires very little effort from the arms/shoulders. Their involvement in terms of moving the weight is insignificant since very little stress is placed on them.

brihead301

MVP


I'll agree squats do more for the legs.

But as stated, hamstrings are only eccentric stabilizers during a squat... during the concentric contraction it involves extension of the knee which is quads.. you hamstrings do not stimulate unless they are extension of the hips where you would be remaining up right (like a stiff leg deadlift)... or knee flexsion which is the opposite of knee extension.

During a triceps extension, your biceps are not worked during the concentric contraction because it's triceps extension and not flexsion... quads/hams are no different.

Eh, I wouldn't compare a squat to a tricep extension.  Nor would I compare the legs to the arms either.
 
The hamstrings play much more of a role in a full, low-bar squat, then simply just as an eccentric stabilizer.  I'd go as far as to say that a low-bar squat is more hamstring dominant then quad dominant.   I don't know the science behind it, but I'm just going by how I feel when I squat heavy.  It's all posterier stuff when I squat.  I don't even feel it in my quads.

I would have to say that is incorrect.  Main groups utilized would be the quadriceps, gluteal and adductor muscles (inner thighs).

His tricep comparison was a good example. During a squat one set of muscles has to be the synergist, and one the antagonist. At the bottom of the squat, these switch. Your "hamstrings" are not that big of muscles (there are 3 that make up this group) in comparison to the muscles that make up your quads. The hardest part of the lift is moving the weight against gravity (up), not with gravity (down). Your quads are responsible for extension or moving the weight up.

Your hamstrings are very important in squats but they are not the dominant muscles in the squat.

The reason you may feel your posterior side is utilized more is because those are probably the weakest part of your legs (hence why squats are quad dominant).