Shoulder Exercises

Hey everyone, I've been browsing the forum for a few weeks now and have even started using MAX-OT to some extent. I was wondering what the "best" or most popular shoulder exercises are. Currently I've been using a military style press machine because I tweaked my left shoulder somehow and have been trying to take it easy to get back into the game. Lots of people have recommended doing military presses with dumbells but I don't always have a workout partner, which makes going heavy very difficult. Thanks in advance-


Also wanted to say this site has been very helpful for me so far, thanks a lot!

There's quite alot of different shoulder exercises.......don't eliminate the shoulder press though, as it is a staple shoulder movement.
With shoulder work, one must ensure that all heads of the deltoid are being hit. That means using movements that will target the front, back and middle delts. This all can't be done in one exercise/movement.
Medial delt: lateral raise,s shrugs (behind the back and in front of) and so on
Anterior delt: forward raises, pushups.....
Posterior delt: bent over lateral raises.......
...just to name a few.

Why bother with shoulder exercises? If you are doing a complete chest, back and leg routine, your shoulders will get a great workout and will grow.
It is the same with bicep and tricep workouts. I see people spending a lot of time with those muscles and for me, it is not worth it. After a complete chest workout, i will do one excercise for tri's. Thats all that is needed since they are blasted from doing chest. Same with Bi's, after doing back, i do 1 bicep exercise. It works great for me. If you concentrait on the bigger muscles, the smaller ones will follow.

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I'd argue but I'd have no ground to stand on. I do all muscle groups but shoulders as well. They are plenty sore after my chest and back workouts. So I know I'm stimulating them.

I'm not shabby when it comes to shoulders either.

However, it's still a major muscle group (legs, chest, back, arms, shoulders)

I do believe that if you concentrate on the bigger muscles with compound heavy movements the smaller ones will follow. But I don't think you will achieve the maximum amount of potential by not focusing in on what most would consider to be a major muscle group.

Hey.. I'm guilty as well. I'm just playing devil's advocate until TreeTrunks or Twin Peak make an appearance.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

I have to disagree... working out your shoulders is important. Sure, doing your chest and back will hit your shoulders... but they will also hit your arms as well... so would you stop working out your arms? Not working out your shoulders will likely lead to injuries in future years of lifting. As you increase weight for chest and back your shoulders will not be built enough to accommodate the extra weight.

If there were a muscle that could be excluded from a workout it's the bicep. That is the most least used muscle on our body yet many of us hit that muscle like crazy. The only thing I use my bicep for is opening doors for ladies and grabbing my beer off the table. But I'm starting to get sidetracked here.

With shoulders I recommend free weights. Barbell shoulder press is the best followed by dumbbell shoulder press, dumbbell lateral raises, and dumbbell forward raises and bent over lateral raises. Pick 3 and do 2-3 sets of each.

Kris Anderson
Have you ordered from Supplements101.com yet?

I can see why you don't work your shoulders mda. If you do BB bench, chins etc. they get a workout. Thats why if you look in my journal my MP is so weak. After chest my shoulders have nothing left in them. Although a couple sets of direct shouder work would be benefical IMHO.

I don't think that much direct shoulder work is necessary. A couple sets should suffice. I would recommend getting in some rear delt work, it's one of the most neglected areas IMO.

some rear delt work

I know dgee does some rear delt stuff on his back day.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

>> so would you stop working out your arms?

yeah, in fact i dont include arms as a separate workout day. After chest, i do one exercise (1 set) for tri's and after back, only 1 exercise (1 set) for bi's.

>> Not working out your shoulders will likely lead to injuries in future years of lifting.

I disagree with this statement. I havent heard of any shoulder injuries due to not doing an insolated shoulder workout. Or have i had any problems in the past with moving heavy chest or back weight.

I do agree that the bicep could be excluded since it covers only 25% of the upper arm with the tri at 75%. But the bicep and Ego seem to be connected.

I don't want to discourage anyone from doing certain routines, i feel certain muscle groups dont need 100% concentration to grow, ie (forearms, bi's tri's & shoulders) The groups get excellent builds from legs, chest and back routines.

Im a firm believer that getting big starts with Legs then chest/back with a few smaller muscle group exercises in between.

But to help answer his question, any shoulder work i feel should be done with free weights. For me, machine weights seem to awkward and uncomfortable. So db shoulder press, front, side and back db raises are good as well.

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Just my two cents here- I have seen great gains in my shoulders since I started the Max OT routine, giving them a day of their own and all. I can see the logic behind the statements that your shoulders get worked out during other exercises, such as bench press, but let's face it- The shoulders perform a wide variety of movements, and my own personal opinion is to make each area of the shoulders as strong as possible in order to prevent possible injury due to underdevelopment.

>> Not working out your shoulders will likely lead to injuries in future years of lifting.

I disagree with this statement. I haven't heard of any shoulder injuries due to not doing an isolated shoulder workout. Or have i had any problems in the past with moving heavy chest or back weight.

Well you can disagree, but it's a true statement. Back in my early years of lifting when I first started I had the same attitude about shoulders that you have. I felt my shoulders were sore after my chest and back workouts so I decided they were already being hit and didn't need anymore abuse from me. How wrong I was.

I ended up damaging my rotator cuff from months of abusing my shoulders. Increasing weight on my chest and back but not building up my shoulders tore them apart. Basically, it got so bad I could not press 15lbs above my head. My sports dr. informed me (as well as the physical therapist who helped me recuperate), that my shoulders were underdeveloped for the weight I was lifting. If you don't want to hit your shoulders that's fine.. to each his own. But for those of you reading this thread, I HIGHLY recommend hitting your shoulders and giving them their own workout.

Now back to inexperience. Like I said, when I did my chest and back workouts back in my early years my shoulders were often sore. This was because of 2 things. The first was because they were underdeveloped and I was putting a lot of stress on them during my back and chest workouts. The second, and most important, was that I was lifting incorrectly. I won't get into this here because I'd have to see your workout to before saying if you're lifting correctly or not... but if your shoulders are sore after a chest workout, you are lifting incorrectly.

A buddy of mine made a comment last week that reminded me of this thread. He said "It doesn't matter how much protein you eat, it's all about calories. You can eat nothing but fat and still gain just as much muscle as a high protein diet." In theory that sounds correct... as calories do determine whether we will gain or lose weight. But we also know that the breakdown of your calories consumed is extremely important to optimize muscle growth (protein/carbs/fats).

Same goes with working out your shoulders. If you want to believe that not dedicating a workout to your shoulders will lead to muscle growth then you can... and you will most likely make some gains in the course of a year just from working out other body parts. But the fact is, you need to workout your shoulders just like every other muscle in your body to see the greatest gains and to help combat future injuries.

Kris Anderson
Have you ordered from Supplements101.com yet?

Now back to inexperience. Like I said, when I did my chest and back workouts back in my early years my shoulders were often sore. This was because of 2 things. The first was because they were underdeveloped and I was putting a lot of stress on them during my back and chest workouts.

I'd like to second this. When I first started lifting back in June, I did no shoulder work, and I ended up straining my left shoulder while doing my other lifts -- it didn't help me any that my shoulders were astonishingly weak. Even after resting the shoulder for about two weeks, I still had pain in it on any exercise that would bring the shoulder into play. Anyway, now that I've been strengtening my shoulders by working them specifically, the pain is (finally) pretty much gone, and I can get a better chest or arm workout now that my shoulders aren't failing early.

ORIGINAL: Kris

>> Not working out your shoulders will likely lead to injuries in future years of lifting.

I disagree with this statement. I haven't heard of any shoulder injuries due to not doing an isolated shoulder workout. Or have i had any problems in the past with moving heavy chest or back weight.

Well you can disagree, but it's a true statement. Back in my early years of lifting when I first started I had the same attitude about shoulders that you have. I felt my shoulders were sore after my chest and back workouts so I decided they were already being hit and didn't need anymore abuse from me. How wrong I was.

I ended up damaging my rotator cuff from months of abusing my shoulders. Increasing weight on my chest and back but not building up my shoulders tore them apart. Basically, it got so bad I could not press 15lbs above my head. My sports dr. informed me (as well as the physical therapist who helped me recuperate), that my shoulders were underdeveloped for the weight I was lifting. If you don't want to hit your shoulders that's fine.. to each his own. But for those of you reading this thread, I HIGHLY recommend hitting your shoulders and giving them their own workout.

Now back to inexperience. Like I said, when I did my chest and back workouts back in my early years my shoulders were often sore. This was because of 2 things. The first was because they were underdeveloped and I was putting a lot of stress on them during my back and chest workouts. The second, and most important, was that I was lifting incorrectly. I won't get into this here because I'd have to see your workout to before saying if you're lifting correctly or not... but if your shoulders are sore after a chest workout, you are lifting incorrectly.

A buddy of mine made a comment last week that reminded me of this thread. He said "It doesn't matter how much protein you eat, it's all about calories. You can eat nothing but fat and still gain just as much muscle as a high protein diet." In theory that sounds correct... as calories do determine whether we will gain or lose weight. But we also know that the breakdown of your calories consumed is extremely important to optimize muscle growth (protein/carbs/fats).

Same goes with working out your shoulders. If you want to believe that not dedicating a workout to your shoulders will lead to muscle growth then you can... and you will most likely make some gains in the course of a year just from working out other body parts. But the fact is, you need to workout your shoulders just like every other muscle in your body to see the greatest gains and to help combat future injuries.

I disagree. The reason you probably injured your shoulder was from the improper form. Some rotator cuff work would have also benefited. One of the reasons you see such massive shoulders and traps on pro bodybuilders is because the anabolics they take give them a chance to recover from all the work they get. You don't see this in natural lifters because a lot of direct shoulder, combined with the compound chest and back work, leads to overtraining. If you want to keep your shoulders healthy I would recommend some rotator cuff work and a thorough warm up before training. Direct shoulder work is not a necessity IMO if you are doing compound chest and back work in proper form.

I disagree. The reason you probably injured your shoulder was from the improper form.

Didn't I already say this?

Now back to inexperience. Like I said, when I did my chest and back workouts back in my early years my shoulders were often sore. This was because of 2 things. The first was because they were underdeveloped and I was putting a lot of stress on them during my back and chest workouts. The second, and most important, was that I was lifting incorrectly.

And IMO, if you are getting a complete shoulder workout from your chest and back workouts, you are definitely not lifting correctly. It's too often I see people using way too much weight and then being forced to use their shoulders to "cheat" in order to complete a rep.

It's like those people who arm curls while standing. They do way too much weight and are forced to swing their body uncontrollably. Now a little swinging is ok if it's controlled... but most people don't do this in a controlled manner. When it's uncontrolled it puts stress on the lower back. So would you then say that they could rule out lower back exercises because it's already being hit by this compound movement (please don't say yes)?

What I'm saying, and what WDNinABQ is saying as well, is that we used to not workout our shoulders and that led to injuries. Now that we do workout our shoulders the pain is starting to go away. If we were lifting incorrectly wouldn't the pain be increasing??? I've also seen far better gains after working out my shoulders. I can't even believe this has become a topic of not working out a body part.

Kris Anderson
Have you ordered from Supplements101.com yet?

Great post so far, im gonna ahve tog o with kris on this one.
Firstly picture yourself with huge arm great triceps and a weak deltoid? You do not build great deltoids without isolation. Im not sure how serious you take bodybuilding but if youa re trying to sculpt your body you wont skip your shoulder workout. Secondly, okay yes they get worked during secondary exercises, so are you claiming you ahve great deltoids at the moment? Bulk up and never work shoulders and you'll see how undefined and small they will remain. PEace dont be lazy work your deltoids

Eat Make Love
Train Make Protein
Sleep Make Muscle
Repeat.........

To keep it short.. and hopefully people will agree and let it be with this:

As a whole, in general, for most everybody, shoulder isolation work is a must and highly recommended. It's a major muscle group and part of a complete routine. However, some people may have reasons not to work them (they respond well, they have an injury that prevents it, they get enough growth from compound movements).

In general though, for any newbie reading this thread, I would not ever recommend skipping shoulders any more then I would say skip calves because doing squats stimulates them enough. Or skip lunch because you ate a good breakfast.

If you want a complete workout for your entire body, then you need to workout your whole body and not skip places that are crucial.

At least do some shoulder presses that will hit all the heads of the area for a complete development.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

fight, fight, fight.........

Well im satisified with "what works for some people, might not work for others." For the newbies, do some shoulder work and decide for yourself if it will benefit you. In general, always pay attention to your form and stay true to it. Cheating or improper form could cause future injury. Find a routine that works for you and go from there.

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If the poster asked "Should I workout my shoulders?" Then I probably wouldn't have posted on this thread as many times as I have... but he asked what exercises he should do. Obviously he is pretty new to the sport of bodybuilding and I think we can all agree that when you're new you should hit everything. Once you have some experience under your belt you can decide what your body needs and can omit certain workouts. That's fine, doesn't bother me what others do... only encourages me to workout harder. I just did not want one of our members to be given incorrect information in that he should not workout his shoulders. He should, unless he decides himself he doesn't want to.

I found this posted on our forum by CPL:

http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/Why_every_muscle_group_should_be_worked_out/m_3540/tm.htm

Kris Anderson
Have you ordered from Supplements101.com yet?

I think we should give all of the major muscel groups a workout anything else is half assed.

Tis my opion anyways

J

NO HURT NO BIG SHIRT

ORIGINAL: Kris

I disagree. The reason you probably injured your shoulder was from the improper form.

Didn't I already say this?

Now back to inexperience. Like I said, when I did my chest and back workouts back in my early years my shoulders were often sore. This was because of 2 things. The first was because they were underdeveloped and I was putting a lot of stress on them during my back and chest workouts. The second, and most important, was that I was lifting incorrectly.

And IMO, if you are getting a complete shoulder workout from your chest and back workouts, you are definitely not lifting correctly. It's too often I see people using way too much weight and then being forced to use their shoulders to "cheat" in order to complete a rep.

It's like those people who arm curls while standing. They do way too much weight and are forced to swing their body uncontrollably. Now a little swinging is ok if it's controlled... but most people don't do this in a controlled manner. When it's uncontrolled it puts stress on the lower back. So would you then say that they could rule out lower back exercises because it's already being hit by this compound movement (please don't say yes)?

What I'm saying, and what WDNinABQ is saying as well, is that we used to not workout our shoulders and that led to injuries. Now that we do workout our shoulders the pain is starting to go away. If we were lifting incorrectly wouldn't the pain be increasing??? I've also seen far better gains after working out my shoulders. I can't even believe this has become a topic of not working out a body part.

I do very infrequent direct shoulder work and I have had very good shoulder development. They are healthy too. I am not the exception. If you want to work your shoulders do some militaries, or a DB overhead press. Direct work, ie laterral raises, is absolutely NOT necessary. Many strength coaches from all schools of thought agree with me on this. This is nothing new, it has been preached by many people for a long time.

Wow, I didn't quite expect this from my question:) However, thanks a lot for the information I'll try and put it to good use, oh and I think I'll designate a day for just shoulders. One final question, what order should I do my sets in if I do these as a seperate day. I mean I don't want to be doing them the day before or after my chest right.. Just curious maybe a day or two after chest? Thanks again all

I end up doing mine two days after my chest day. My split is:

Tuesday: Back & Triceps
Friday: Chest & Biceps
Saturday: Quads & Hammies
Sunday: Shoulders & Calves

I don't know if this is ideal, but it's what I do.

/Squats in T minus 10 minutes...

-30-

In six months, what will your t-shirt say?

My training journal: Sweating with the toadies
My scattered thoughts: The Bramble

Wow, I didn't quite expect this from my question:)

I'm not sure any of us did..but it did induce a lot of thought. In fact, I'm throwing in some sets for shoulders after my back today. A muscle group that I know gets indirect work with the various exercises, but gets no real attention specifically. Especially when it comes to military presses.

We'll see how it goes. I think after a back workout my shoulders will be sufficiently warmed up. Hopefully not burned out.

Then I do chest on Monday. Sunday is rest.. 1 day recovery.. we'll see just how sore they are and what my chest day is like. If that's the case.. I may have to switch up the routine a bit depending on my recovery times.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

I suspect that if any of you who don't workout shoulders seperately tried it seriously for four months, you might be surprised.
A friend of mine had serious problems when it came to gaining any mass in his chest- His bench weight would creep upwards, but for some reason, the muscle never appeared to gain in size visibly. He decided to work the hell out of his shoulders and traps to compensate, and let me tell you- It worked. All the ladies comment on how big he is all the time now, even though his chest is lacking. If nice looking shoulders attract more female attention, expect me to give my shoulders the attention they deserve.

Ahh.. I knew it! That is why Kris is so on the "work the shoulders" soap box.

Not because it's the right thing to do.. because it's about chicks.. Always about chicks..

Thanks cpl.. I mean.. you are right.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com