Progress over two years .. what do you think?

All protein isn't absorbed into the muscle - bodybuilders tend to consume 3x the protein per lb of bodyweight and stay under 10% bodyfat.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP


All protein isn't absorbed into the muscle - bodybuilders tend to consume 3x the protein per lb of bodyweight and stay under 10% bodyfat.

I have never heard of a bodybuilder eating that much. And no.. protein (depends on what kind) does not go straight to repairing muscle tissue. It can be used as an energy source, to build hair, nails (keep body type functions up) and to filter bodily fluids.

But anyways;

If I am shooting for 6-7 meals a day then I should be looking at 25- 30 grams of protein per meal. This isn't too hard to accomplish, BUT it is the summer and I would like to stay or get more cut so perhaps bulking is not the best idea to go through with at the moment. Unless I do 45-60 minutes of cardio prior to workout out.. the only problem with that is that it will tire me out so I won't be able to lift as heavy.

HMM? Unless I do cardio on my rest days.

Yep - if you would like me to provide video proof of Milos Sarcev saying he recommends no less than 1g per lb of bodyweight and the person should aim for 2-3g per lb, I'll do so.

I find 300g of protein unnecessary for someone 100 lbs personally; but depended upon the person some people tend to need more than others.

1g per lb is the general guideline for optimal hypertrophy.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP


Deadlifts don't work the biceps, biceps are more stabilizers than anything else - the arms are fully extended canceling any flexsion of the biceps.

How's this program look?

Day 1
Squat
Bench
BB Row
Pullup
DB Curl

Day 3
Deadlift
OH Press
Incline Bench
Compound Row
Close grip bench press

Day 5
Power clean
Weighted Dips
BB Row
Pullup
DB Curls

Biceps are utilized with - barbell rows, dumbell curls and pullups
Triceps are utilized with - close grip benches, weighted dips, benches, oh presses

Plenty of arm work, you won't gain inches to your arms without gaining weight though, so that's in the diet. Nothing is more frustrating than progressing on a lift and not growing in the area the lift overloads.  

What would the sets be for these exercises? Would it be 4 sets of 8-10 for Curls (example).

5x5

4 sets of 10 I find to be just a bit too much volume, it can subtract from the intensity which is just as important and sometimes more important in building hypertrophy. You ideally want to compromise the intensity (weight) and volume (overall workload).

As stated in another thread - I've found the best approach is switching them up when you plateau. A plateau is your body trying to adapt to what it's given so which is why a chance is necessary in order to avoid the adaption and continue to progress.

3X10 --- use this weight until you plateau
3X8 ---use the 5lbs less than you plateau with @ 3X10 and increase weekly
3X5 --- same principle
3X3 --- same principle

Most people like to test their 1RM here but doing this or switching back to 3X10 with 5 lbs less than you plateau at is up to you.

It's the way I like to do things - doing things one way only is really unproductive IMPO.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Hm.. I got two different answers here.

It really depends on your training schedule. I do a monday high volume, wednesday recovery, and friday max effort.

Monday I do 4 sets of 4-8 reps

Wednesday 3 sets of 3

Friday I do triples into singles; max out.

But that's me. Work with your body. Becoming a stronger better well built person involves listening to your body instead of doing what's directly on paper

Moodster


Hm.. I got two different answers here.

Just listen to your body, that's the best advice that can be given to things like this.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I'd say 5x5 with 2 of those sets being ramping sets

V,
    You're the Clipart Photoshop GOD!

 

_Virtuoso_


I'd say 5x5 with 2 of those sets being ramping sets

Ramping sets

It means an increase in weight as you go.

I find them less overall effective as just 3X5 with higher weight for all 3 sets.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Hm, I am not sure how doing 5 sets of an exercise is more effective then doing 3 sets to build muscle? Though I explained that vaguely. I am sure you know what I mean..

5X5 with the same weight allows less weight than 3X5, the benefit 4-6 reps brings us is to lift heavier than medial reps like 8-12.

5X5 with ramping sets is decent, but really serves less purpose IMHO.

3X5 is a phenomenal way to gain mess, I prefer never to go lower than 8 reps for my own personal workouts, just a preference but I feel I respond better from 8-10 reps.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I really dont think 3x5 allows you to lift more weight.

your doing 2 more sets but at the same weight, while resting your going to recuperate and be able to lift it again or you wont. So if you can lift something 3x5, you can more then likely lift it 5x5 so why skimp on the work? You should recover enough to hit those extra 2 sets.

The only way I can see 3x5 being of better use is if you want to start at 3x5 and use that as a way to keep progression when weight stalls. Or if you want to fit in another exercise in the given 9-12 sets per muscle group...but really whats the point of that.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Nm0ney34


I really dont think 3x5 allows you to lift more weight.

your doing 2 more sets but at the same weight, while resting your going to recuperate and be able to lift it again or you wont. So if you can lift something 3x5, you can more then likely lift it 5x5 so why skimp on the work? You should recover enough to hit those extra 2 sets.

The only way I can see 3x5 being of better use is if you want to start at 3x5 and use that as a way to keep progression when weight stalls. Or if you want to fit in another exercise in the given 9-12 sets per muscle group...but really whats the point of that.

I think he means 3x5 wither heavier weight.

Nm0ney34


I really dont think 3x5 allows you to lift more weight.

your doing 2 more sets but at the same weight, while resting your going to recuperate and be able to lift it again or you wont. So if you can lift something 3x5, you can more then likely lift it 5x5 so why skimp on the work? You should recover enough to hit those extra 2 sets.

The only way I can see 3x5 being of better use is if you want to start at 3x5 and use that as a way to keep progression when weight stalls. Or if you want to fit in another exercise in the given 9-12 sets per muscle group...but really whats the point of that.

Adding more volume will always subtract the intensity.

3X5 does allow you to lift heavier.

I don't know about you - but when I'm finished with my 3X5 I can't even  begin to think about another two sets.

If I were to attempt 5X5 with the weight I do for 3X5 I'd end up not completing all the reps for 5X5.

It's way to much volume for heavy lifting - 5X5 = 25; 3X5 = 15. 10 reps is a lot when you're lifting heavy.

3X10 - 30; 5X5 = 25 << not much different in total volume there yet there is a significant difference in 3X5 and 5X5.

If you can do two more sets after 3X5, it's time to increase the intensity, you weren't lifting heavy enough.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I would just lift between 4-6 reps, and keep the sets at 3-5. Just make sure that whatever you choose, you can't get out another rep past 4-6.. See what I'm saying?

The 2 ramping sets imo are great to get the blood flowing into those areas before you hit your 3 main sets. That's the reason I do them.

V,
    You're the Clipart Photoshop GOD!

 

Usually it can count as ramping sets to do warm up sets..

Example: when I was repping 185 for 3 X 5, this was my workout.

135 X 5
170 X 5
185 X 3 X 5

All together it was 5 X 5 but the previous sets were to warm up and not overload.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP

Nm0ney34


I really dont think 3x5 allows you to lift more weight.

your doing 2 more sets but at the same weight, while resting your going to recuperate and be able to lift it again or you wont. So if you can lift something 3x5, you can more then likely lift it 5x5 so why skimp on the work? You should recover enough to hit those extra 2 sets.

The only way I can see 3x5 being of better use is if you want to start at 3x5 and use that as a way to keep progression when weight stalls. Or if you want to fit in another exercise in the given 9-12 sets per muscle group...but really whats the point of that.

Adding more volume will always subtract the intensity.

3X5 does allow you to lift heavier.

I don't know about you - but when I'm finished with my 3X5 I can't even  begin to think about another two sets.

If I were to attempt 5X5 with the weight I do for 3X5 I'd end up not completing all the reps for 5X5.

It's way to much volume for heavy lifting - 5X5 = 25; 3X5 = 15. 10 reps is a lot when you're lifting heavy.

Its not too much...its tried and proven... and I have no problem at all lifting heavy 5x5's. 3x5's are typically used as recovery sets. And its not 10 reps all at the same time, you rest and recover and then lift another set.

3X10 - 30; 5X5 = 25 << not much different in total volume there yet there is a significant difference in 3X5 and 5X5.

You just compared 3x10 vs 5x5 which is a 5 rep difference on each given set, reps make a MUCH bigger difference in the amount of weight your going to do much moreso than sets. But yes, there is a volume difference and your shorting yourself by just going 3x5.

If you can do two more sets after 3X5, it's time to increase the intensity, you weren't lifting heavy enough.

No its not, that doesnt mean that at all. I will agree with what your saying the more you get closer to your set/rep max. But I mean really, even if I agreed completely with you...

How much weight are you supposedly lifting heavier when comparing 3x5 and 5x5? Im curious because I feel 3x5 is just an excuse to not put in as much work, I want to know how much more weight it allows you to lift?

Like I said its tried and proven, im not about to go tell bill star and olympic lifters their doing it wrong.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Nm0ney34

Its not too much...its tried and proven... and I have no problem at all lifting heavy 5x5's. 3x5's are typically used as recovery sets. And its not 10 reps all at the same time, you rest and recover and then lift another set.

I never said it was ineffective. I said it's just too much volume for me personally. 3 X 5 is intended for much more than just "recovery".

3 X 5 is something I've used for the first two years of my training and gained about 60lbs of mass and 100lbs on the majority of my compound lifts from.

I've used 5 X 5 and had to decrease the weight.

You just compared 3x10 vs 5x5 which is a 5 rep difference on each given set, reps make a MUCH bigger difference in the amount of weight your going to do much moreso than sets. But yes, there is a volume difference and your shorting yourself by just going 3x5.

3 X 10 vs 5 X 5 was a good comparison; because there is less difference in 3 X 10 than 5 X 5 than 3 X 5 vs 5 X 5, which would mean according to volume you should be able to lift closer in weight with  3 X 10 & 5 X 5 than 3 X 5 & 5 X 5.

If you would load up on rest sets, rest 3 minutes between 3 X 5 and 5 minutes on 5 X 5, then you might be able to use the same weight, but if you would increase the rest between sets on 3 X 5, it's just that much more than you could be lifting.

Less sets = heavier weight, hence why you drop in volume usually when you plateau - to increase the intensity.

How much weight are you supposedly lifting heavier when comparing 3x5 and 5x5? Im curious because I feel 3x5 is just an excuse to not put in as much work, I want to know how much more weight it allows you to lift?

Depends on the person and I guess their endurance. I've had very low endurance over the past couple of years, when at the time when I was doing 5 X 5 on Monday and 3 X 5 on Friday I was doing this... it was like a summer ago

Bench press (Monday) - 5 x 5 with 170lbs

Bench Press (Friday) - 3 X 5 with 180lbs

Bench Press (Monday) - 3 X 3 with 190lbs

Then I would go back to 5 X 5 on Friday. So with me, it made about a 10lb difference. I wouldn't have progressed as quickly using 5 X 5 with the same weight.

Like I said its tried and proven, im not about to go tell bill star and olympic lifters their doing it wrong.

Me either, I never said 5 X 5 was wrong, I said I didn't like it as much as 3 X 5 and expressed why.

Mark Rippetoe prefers 3 X 5 in his starting strength routine and the goal of the routine is to progress in the intensit, wonder why he chose 3 X 5 over 5 X 5

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I agree, the only reason I see 3x5 being of any use compared to 5x5 is for progress

but were not talking about starting strength, im more focused on why you "prefer" 3x5 to 5x5. And i doubt rippetoe is going to tell intermediate to advanced guys to 3x5 opposed to 5x5.

As for you lifting heavier 3x5 as opposed to 5x5 I still dont think you have a valid argument to prove anything, you are an anomaly you said yourself your decline bench is far, far less then your flat bench...that alone just boggles my mind.

right now your 3x5 is just an excuse to skip 2 sets, thats how I see it. But if it works for you, then good.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Nm0ney34
I agree, the only reason I see 3x5 being of any use compared to 5x5 is for progress

Isn't that what we train for? Progression?

but were not talking about starting strength, im more focused on why you "prefer" 3x5 to 5x5. And i doubt rippetoe is going to tell intermediate to advanced guys to 3x5 opposed to 5x5.

We weren't talking about Bill Starr either. 5 X 5 contains more volume; 3 X 5 contains more intensity - volume and intensity builds size. I've seen some big dudes that use 3 X 3.

I stated already I prefer 3 X 5 over 5 X 5 because it allows me to progress in weight more, when using lower reps my prime goal is to progress in weight so I pick the rep/set scheme that allows me to advance quicker.

As for you lifting heavier 3x5 as opposed to 5x5 I still dont think you have a valid argument to prove anything, you are an anomaly you said yourself your decline bench is far, far less then your flat bench...that alone just boggles my mind.

I don't understand what you're saying; are you suggesting I'm lying about my own decline bench press? Pretending to be weaker?

135 X 8 is my decline max and it's a real struggle. 185 X 8 is my usual first set of flat benches, following by 210 X 5, 165 X 10, 135 X 15

Normally I don't say this - but I'd be more than happy to video tape my decline press and video my incline press and prove they're the exact same. I promise I won't pretend to strain

right now your 3x5 is just an excuse to skip 2 sets, thats how I see it. But if it works for you, then good.

No, I find those other two sets non beneficial to me, I respond much better with 10lbs and 10 less reps, I would prefer (when going low in reps) to sacrifice some reps for a little more weight.. it allows me to progress quicker. 

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Im not saying your lying, im saying it just boggles my mind.

Decline bench is basically flat bench (IT IS...lol) accept, for a shorter range of motion. This allows for a guy to decline bench more weight then flat benching because the weight travels a shorter distance.

That is the exact same reason I think the exercise is crap, but thats another argument.

anyway, I just feel the extra volume is essential to the work load. As a beginner I see nothing wrong with starting out with 3x5, linearly progressing, weight stops you can still bump up sets or any combination you want.

After that though, I see no reason to short yourself the 2 sets.

Oh well, guess well have to agree to disagree.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Nm0ney34
Oh well, guess well have to agree to disagree.

I like you nm0ney (no homo)

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Hm.. anyways..

5x5 builds muscle and strength I assume. I am much more focused on building muscle then getting stronger (although I know the two collide).

Why wouldn't 3 sets of 8-10 be better then 5 sets of 5 reps for building muscle?

Your not going to build any muscle without eating over caloric maintenance.

Some people will argue higher reps stimulate better hypertrophy, lower reps better strength...

Whether you believe that or not or think its all crap, the diet is whats going to matter.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Nm0ney34


Your not going to build any muscle without eating over caloric maintenance.

Some people will argue higher reps stimulate better hypertrophy, lower reps better strength...

Whether you believe that or not or think its all crap, the diet is whats going to matter.

Exactly, you won't gain muscle if you aren't eating properly. You can lift all day, 5x5, 3x10, whatever rep range or however many sets you would like.. but without sufficient calories, you'll get no where.


You say all you want to do is build muscle? Well, lift heavy and eat big. Thats all you really need. You haven't really made any gains in those 2 years, so you still have the potential to make massive gains, quick. Just eat 5-6 meals containing starchy carbs, fiberous carbs, fats, and a lean protein. If you cant do that, do what someone else said. 3 full meals and 2-3 shakes. That would be pretty good as well.

5'7" - 20 - 195lbs

The main keys to building size are simple- Eat, train and rest. You have to do each one of the three right for the best results, but the one most people seem to overlook or pay the least amount of attention to is their diet. Make sure you're getting enough calories from the right types of food, and you'll grow muscle whether you're lifting 4-6 reps or 8-10 or 10-12.

You'll hear a lot of people saying that lower reps don't build size, lower reps build strength- Simply not true. Lower reps do build strength, but they can also build size- Provided you're eating to gain mass, of course. If you were to train with heavy weights in lower rep ranges, you'd definitely get stronger, but if you stuck to a low calorie diet while doing so, your body wouldn't have anything to build the muscle from. Your body would instead learn to use the muscle it already has much more efficiently- Think of lightweight powerlifters here.

If, however, you're eating to grow muscle- Plenty of good calories- Your body would build more muscle to increase it's strength instead of trying to re-train the muscle it already has. I've put on about 60 pounds of muscle while lifting in the four to six rep range, and eating like an animal- So when people tell me you can't gain size on low reps and heavy weight, I know that's a false statement.

Edit:- The best time to change the rep range is when you plateau...don't change something if you're progressing.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant