Pro-Hormones?
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Logged in as: Guest
|
Login  | |
|
Pro-Hormones? - 6/3/2003 2:36:04 PM
|
|
|
RepsnSets
Posts: 10
Joined: 4/29/2003
Status: offline
|
Wow... killer forum topic. Interesting. Exactly what I was thinking about over the last few days. Sweet!
Over the past few days I' ve been racking my brain about this. To me it makes prefect sence. I' ve been researching, reading literature...asking questions and I think it may be worth a shot. And the most recent studies on andro products have been done on trained, young(20-30) men. After learning about how they work, I think that it would be a good addition to any supplement program.
I' m leaning to 19-Noradrostendione & 4-androstenDIOL(or 5-diol).
Here' s what they are, Nor andro, doesn' t convert into testosterone like Andro, it converts into Nortestoterone through a single enzym reaction. Nortestosterone isn' t as Androgenic as andro, but is Highly anabolic.
Androgenic is the masculinating effects that all androgenic hormones(testosteron) have, deepening of the voice, hair, increased muscularity.
Anabolic is the process by which complex structures are produced from simple once(protein from amino acids) and it also has a much higher affinity to androgenc receptors so that it transmits its signal longer than andro would. 6 hours vs. 2 hours.
Now, 4-diol is almost 3x as powerful as dione at raising testosterone leves, but it does have the advantage of transmiting its anabolic signal from its unconverted form. Thats a big plus, because the large majority of pro-hormones never get converted. They are limited by the amount and the rate at which the enzymes work. So 4-diol provides testotorone boosting and muscle building properties. And the diols can' t be converted to estrogen in its unconverted form. But Estrogen is a big peice of the testosterone puzzle, it just becomse a problem when there is TOO much. This is why I think 4-diol & nor-andro make a good choice.
The diols in general have the clear cut advantage, and I would opt for Nor-diol. But it seems that not one company has been able to prodce a pure product. Even then " Good" companies are comming up shor(85% pure) so, I' d rather not risk it.
So, I wanted to know what everyone else thought about pro-hormones...I know i' m probably going to get hammered for considering them, but I' ve done my homework. What do you guys think? Is it cheating, or taking advantage of the supplement world? Do you have any questions about pro-hormones?
Any advice is appreciated. The Big Cat article was a good read, but I' ll take the previous posts warnings about inaccuracies. Anything I can do to learn about this is great.
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-Hormones? - 6/3/2003 3:11:12 PM
|
|
|
Twin Peak
Posts: 1515
Joined: 5/9/2003
Status: offline
|
Some random thoughts.
Nor is a decent choice, though I have yet to try it. Will, likely, in a month.
It is less anabolic and less androgen then 4-diol. Its ratio however is superior, so you get more muscle for the sides, in a manner of speaking.
4-diol does convert to estrogen. Indeed, this is what makes it good for bulking (water retention is good here) and as well makes it a great stack for 1-testosterone.
1-test is clearly the most anabolic and androgen of all.
Let me know if I can clarify anything further.
_____________________________
http://www.designersupps.com
Email: steve @ designersupps.com
Peak Physiques™
INTELLIGENT DESIGN IS COMING, register now at
http://www.intelligentdesignmag.com
(in reply to RepsnSets)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-Hormones? - 6/3/2003 3:27:06 PM
|
|
|
juggernaut
Posts: 7
Joined: 4/30/2003
Status: offline
|
I guess the real issue is why is taking one thing wrong and another not? Is supplementing really natural, or any more so then steriods?
The real reason steroids are a problem is because of the damage they do to the people who take them. It does give you an advantage, but the cost is so high that it is unfair to allow them, seeing as many people are not willing to sacrifice themselves to get results.
The only reason these would be " cheating" is if they were harmful to your body. If they aren' t harmful, then it is really no different then taking whey protein or creatine. If it is harmful, but you think it is worth it, then it is cheating the same way steroids is cheating because it is just like using steroids. The people who use them just happen to think the effects are worth it.
Using creatine, hydrolized whey, and DemX isn' t natural. Eating chicken and eggs is. But it isn' t cheating if everyone can do it without fear. Then it is just smart. The only time it is a problem is if it is harmful to you.
I wasn' t able to tell from your synopsis if it is bad for you or not, so you will have to be the judge of that.
(in reply to RepsnSets)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-Hormones? - 6/3/2003 3:34:16 PM
|
|
|
zebrahead
Posts: 26
Joined: 4/29/2003
Status: offline
|
I am guessing you have done pretty well without it so why would you possibly jepordize your health with these so called supplements? I think that they are too powerful to mess with.
Ultimately, it is your choice but I would advise against it.
I just bought a copy of Muscular Development and they openly discuss the amount of steriod abuse there is in professional bodybuilding. It pretty disgusting! These guys are nearly dying to get into the shape they are. I have lost repect for these guys. That abuse will take it toll later in life
Stay clean. You can look at your self in the mirror and be proud that you didn' t cheat. 
(in reply to RepsnSets)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-Hormones? - 6/3/2003 3:39:33 PM
|
|
|
Twin Peak
Posts: 1515
Joined: 5/9/2003
Status: offline
|
Jug -- I do not meant to be offensive, but, your views on " cheating" are an odd twist of philosophy.
How is it that you equate danger with cheat? That makes no sense. It is, or can be, dangerous to do one rep max lifts. If you do them, and grow, is that cheating?
There is no way you, or anyone, can impose silly morals and call steroid use cheating. Who is being cheated? Someone must be, or are you suggesting he is cheating himself, or could be.
Now, if the person competes on " natural" shows, or is in a drug tested sport, THEN use of steroids would be, and should be, deemed cheating.
I do agree with your astute comment on what is " natural" . In todays world of supplementation, the line is so blurred that the term is meaningless to me.
I view myself as " legal" .
As to danger -- your misperception on the " danger" of steroids is quite common, but equally fallacious. Steroids, when used intelligently and not abused, are not very dangerous at all. If the potential sides are considered, and evaluated, and precautions are taken (and legality is not an issue), then steroid use is actually relatively danger free.
That said, each anabolic substance has potential sides, depending on the substance and depending on ones predisposition (for example, say to make pattern baldness), and this should be considered, and precautions taken. This is true with prohormone use as well.
_____________________________
http://www.designersupps.com
Email: steve @ designersupps.com
Peak Physiques™
INTELLIGENT DESIGN IS COMING, register now at
http://www.intelligentdesignmag.com
(in reply to RepsnSets)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-Hormones? - 6/3/2003 3:41:51 PM
|
|
|
Twin Peak
Posts: 1515
Joined: 5/9/2003
Status: offline
|
quote:
I am guessing you have done pretty well without it so why would you possibly jepordize your health with these so called supplements? I think that they are too powerful to mess with.
....
Stay clean. You can look at your self in the mirror and be proud that you didn' t cheat.
This was posted when I was typing.
These statements are retarded, to be blunt. For reasons why, see above.
_____________________________
http://www.designersupps.com
Email: steve @ designersupps.com
Peak Physiques™
INTELLIGENT DESIGN IS COMING, register now at
http://www.intelligentdesignmag.com
(in reply to RepsnSets)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-Hormones? - 6/3/2003 3:54:52 PM
|
|
|
RepsnSets
Posts: 10
Joined: 4/29/2003
Status: offline
|
Well that' s just it, pro-hormones aren' t even close to steroids. Steroids are Dose-dependant, the more you take the bigger you get.
Pro-hormones actually aren' t worth a damn in the form the come in. They are precursors to a hormone. Much like vitamin D, or in the same fashion aspirin works.
And because they are converted by your body, it is in-effect your own hormones. its like eating an essential fatty acid, or cholesterol, they will eventually become a hormone.
Pro-hormones are converted by a single and very specific enzyme. The amount of the enzyme limits the amount that can be converted and thus the effectiveness. You could suck down a bottle everyday, but it won' t do you any good.
And truthfully, there haven' t been any studies that have shown side effects, I' ve never seen anyone who' s had the all to famous womanizing effects of any andro product. Also, Androstendione is produced in our bodies naturally and is also in meat products....much like creatine. Is creatine Cheating?
And again unlike steroids, they can only supplement your hard work in the gym. Honestly, I wouldn' t consider it cheating, because they aren' t illegal, and won' t pack on slabs of muscle unless I bust my ass like I am now. And ill still be working as hard as i ever did, so cheating...no. And what negative health benefits are you thinking of?
Thanks TP for the info. I figured as much. Glad to know that I' m semi on the right path.
(in reply to RepsnSets)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-Hormones? - 6/3/2003 3:56:07 PM
|
|
|
RepsnSets
Posts: 10
Joined: 4/29/2003
Status: offline
|
Well the only side effects that have been repoted would be the one from levels of estorgen that exceed that which the body can handle. And then resulting in accumulated fat, and in the cas of androgens, things like baldness, and zits. But those are extreme cases, and I' ve never seen anyone whos ever gone " Gyno" from an andro supplement.
Other than that, no, there are no side effect that can be accounted for or that have been found in any studies.
Am I correct in this assumption?
(in reply to RepsnSets)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-Hormones? - 6/3/2003 4:08:12 PM
|
|
|
zebrahead
Posts: 26
Joined: 4/29/2003
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Twin Peak
These statements are retarded, to be blunt. For reasons why, see above.
TP,
I saw an article a year ago at healthcentral.com on Andro. It says that it can lower your good cholesterol and make you vulnerable for a stroke or heart attack. That is enough to scare me away.
Of course, this could be bogus.
Just wanted to see what you think.
(in reply to Twin Peak)
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-Hormones? - 6/3/2003 4:20:23 PM
|
|
|
Twin Peak
Posts: 1515
Joined: 5/9/2003
Status: offline
|
I think both of you are on the extremes with PHs.
PHs and most especially 1-T are indeed quite close to steroids. Likewise gains from them can be profound.
I am not sure what article which you are referring, but there are no studies showing as much. Also you used the word *could* any substance could show any effect. Big whoop. How significant is the effect? What results come therefrom? Is the effect transient or permanent? If transient, what does that mean on a short 2-6 week cycle? Can the effects be counteracted? How likely are they to occur? Does it only occur if you have a predisposition?
You see what I mean? It is not as simple as one may think.
That said, I have not seen a case of gyno from one of these products, but I have heard complaints of those predisposed to gyno, male pattern baldness, etc, have flare ups, or their situation heightened.
As well, do not fool yourself, these are exogenous hormones, and as such decrease endogenous testosterone, for example. This is why cycling them is important, and dosing is important, and post cycle recovery is important.
Don' t take them lightly.
Don' t yell they they are dangerous without discussing context and defining the purported danger either.
_____________________________
http://www.designersupps.com
Email: steve @ designersupps.com
Peak Physiques™
INTELLIGENT DESIGN IS COMING, register now at
http://www.intelligentdesignmag.com
(in reply to RepsnSets)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-Hormones? - 6/3/2003 4:22:26 PM
|
|
|
Twin Peak
Posts: 1515
Joined: 5/9/2003
Status: offline
|
quote:
TP,
I saw an article a year ago at healthcentral.com on Andro. It says that it can lower your good cholesterol and make you vulnerable for a stroke or heart attack. That is enough to scare me away.
Of course, this could be bogus.
Just wanted to see what you think.
I have heard the same allegations. There is no proof of this. And the effects, if true, would be transient.
_____________________________
http://www.designersupps.com
Email: steve @ designersupps.com
Peak Physiques™
INTELLIGENT DESIGN IS COMING, register now at
http://www.intelligentdesignmag.com
(in reply to RepsnSets)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-Hormones? - 6/3/2003 4:27:06 PM
|
|
|
RepsnSets
Posts: 10
Joined: 4/29/2003
Status: offline
|
I think its the health nuts just causing a ruckous because they' ve always told people that there is no " magic pill" that will do anything spectacular. And now that there is they are just searching for ways to shoot it down.
Even if it did, I take plenty of flax and CLA for my good fats.
Lastly, let' s remember that androgens are know for a fact to decrease LDL. Now a decrase in HDL isn' t what is bad, its when the two types are out of the desired ratio. So as most people in the health industry try to do with supplements, the took the parts of the data they wanted and put them in an article. Did the article say andything about the decrease in LDL? Did it even mention than the decrease in HDL was very minute at best. if the decrease in LDL is greater than HDL, the thats a good thing.
These are the same people that denied that anabolic steroids worked.
(in reply to zebrahead)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-Hormones? - 6/3/2003 4:34:53 PM
|
|
|
Twin Peak
Posts: 1515
Joined: 5/9/2003
Status: offline
|
quote:
Even if it did, I take plenty of flax and CLA for my good fats.
Fish oil is better. Much better.
quote:
These are the same people that denied that anabolic steroids worked.
True.
_____________________________
http://www.designersupps.com
Email: steve @ designersupps.com
Peak Physiques™
INTELLIGENT DESIGN IS COMING, register now at
http://www.intelligentdesignmag.com
(in reply to RepsnSets)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Advertisement
|
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Printable Version
