PH use at my age
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PH use at my age - 1/23/2004 7:25:55 AM
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phreakbr666
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From: Miami,FL baby!! Represent
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I have a question, I am currently 18 I want to take pro hormones for example Animal Stack, something from VPX or Andro Nitrate3 from Twinlab. Do you recommed me taking PH now at my age or should I take something else that is not PH. If so which product is good
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RE: PH use at my age - 1/23/2004 9:47:55 AM
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Powerhaus
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IMHO, prohormones don't work. Tests on DHEA and Andro showed a higher estrogen level in the blood, but the same testosterone level.
There's a lot about what they actually do that's not known yet. However at 18 at least you are done growing, if you were 14 I'd say NO. But at 18 I have to say maybe, although I don't believe they do what they claim.
(in reply to phreakbr666)
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RE: PH use at my age - 1/25/2004 10:07:26 AM
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djduhon
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From: Louisiana, originally
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I don't think there's any doubt that they work, the point here is that you probably shouldn't be using them at 18. Your natural levels are high enough that a diet change will put weight on you without any help. Taking them now at could lower your test levels for a significant amout of time; why take that chance when you can make the same gains without by being disciplined???
D
(in reply to Powerhaus)
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RE: PH use at my age - 1/26/2004 10:01:39 AM
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Powerhaus
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First of all, there is NO study cited here. This is basically a compilation of claims.
Secondly:
quote:
Typical claims made for 1-Androstenediol
(1) Orally active, naturally occurring prohormone
(2) Oral bioavailability about 30%
(3) No conversion to estrogens in the body
(4) Won’t cause breast enlargement
(5) Minimal water retention side effects
(6) Low conversion to DHT
(7) Won’t cause scalp hair loss
(8) Extremely potent anabolic (154% as potent as testosterone)
(9) Liver activates it, rather than inactivating it
(10) Non-toxic
(11) Hardens muscles, increases muscle strength
These don't add up. for #3 and #4 (#3 causes #4), it may be true the prohormone doesn't covert to estrogen, but if it converts to testosterone, then some of the testosterone WILL convert to estrogen.
#6 and #7 (again #6 would cause #7), again, 1-AD may not convert to DHT, but 1-testosterone would.
#9 and #10 don't jive, any time you have to process it through the liver, you have at least some liver toxicity. That's why oral steroids are "dirtier" than injected ones (or the skin gel).
It's impossible to claim that it raises testostone without having any of the side effects of testosterone.
quote:
Typical claims made against 1-Androstenediol
(12) Low anabolic potency (40% the potency of testosterone)
(13) No intrinsic anabolic activity on its own
(14) Extremely androgenic
(15) Causes loss of libido
(16) Makes urethra sting when you urinate
(17) Is dangerous
(18) Causes acne, body/facial hair growth, scalp hair loss
(19) Causes breast enlargement
(20) Causes heart problems
(21) Causes mood changes
(22) Causes testicle shrinkage and male infertility
There is no evidence to support any of the claims 12-22 against 1-AD. The source of claims 12-16 are companies with products competing with 1-AD. Claims 17-22 come from government and sports officials eager to ban athletic performance enhancers and willing to say anything to further this aim. In the absence of long-term studies, we have only short-term studies and anecdotal reports to go on, and these support none of the negative claims.
I'm not seeing any evidence here to support the basic premise that taking 1-AD raises blood testosterone levels.
quote:
Would you like me to get more studies?
Yes. Or rather, I would like you to get A study, as opposed to a list of claims.
(in reply to Misanthropy)
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RE: PH use at my age - 1/26/2004 10:09:57 AM
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Marc David
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So let me get involved..
Powerhaus.. are you saying that PHs don't work? Or that there is no actual studies that they do? Or are you saying they work but not as good as the real stuff?
I'm confused. The claims listed and side effects are typical and well reported from people taking such things as 1-AD.
I don't need a study to tell me creatine helps me. And PHs are barbaric compared to real "juice" but they do work.. and the biological advancements over the last 5 years have made them even better.
quote:
It's impossible to claim that it raises testosterone without having any of the side effects of testosterone.
Did I miss somebody's post on that? Or a particular claim #? Raising test.. no matter what product has the side effects. I don't think the mass majority has seen the side effects yet but my DR friend has told me that more and more younger men in their 30's are coming in with issues related to high test.. and my current DR also said that having a high test level will speed along anything that needs test to grow (prostate cancer comes to mind).
If you want A study on 1-AD, I'm sure I can find one.
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RE: PH use at my age - 1/26/2004 11:40:01 AM
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Misanthropy
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Perhaps you missed the other Known Facts about 1-AD.
quote:
The known facts about 1-Androstenediol
* It is an orally active, naturally occurring prohormone.
* Oral bioavailability appears to be higher than most anabolic prohormones, but has not yet been measured quantitatively.
* Does not convert to estrogens in the body — hence, won't cause breast enlargement or estrogen-related water retention.
* Conversion to DHT is low or zero. Therefore, 1-AD is not likely to cause acne, scalp hair loss, or body/facial hair growth.
* The liver converts 1-AD to 1-Testosterone, which is a very potent anabolic steroid. This conversion could be called “activation†(see claim 9 above), but 1-AD also has anabolic action of its own. The figure of 154% (claim 8) refers to this action. The inactivation of both 1-AD and 1-Testosterone, prior to their elimination from the body, also takes place in the liver, so claim 9 is not entirely accurate.
* 1-AD is non-toxic with short-term use — long-term studies have not been done.
* 1-AD, both on its own and through its metabolite 1-Testosterone, increases muscle mass and strength without causing significant water retention in the muscles. In this sense it “hardens musclesâ€.
As those you listed and on the report are typical claims and not the known facts.
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(in reply to Powerhaus)
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RE: PH use at my age - 1/26/2004 12:59:57 PM
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Powerhaus
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I am saying that in the actual studies that I have seen about SOME PH's, they didn't result in increased testosterone levels in the blood. Based on the actual studies that I have seen, and what I know about human biochemisty, and what I know about the FDA and how fast they clamp down on anything that DOES raise testosterone, I don't belive they work.
There ARE pleanty of double-blind studies showing that creatine results in more muscle strength and bulk.
Shortly after I joined the board I got into a bit of a flame war over "Everyone knows that red meat has to be cooked to be digestable". I didn't accept that everyone knew that, it didn't make logical sense to me, and the research I did showed that cooking meat makes it a bit LESS digestible.
I'm not convinced by "Known Facts" that aren't supported by scientific testing. It turns out the "Known Fact" that you should drink at least 8 glasses of water a day is based on, well, nothing. Even the scientist who wrote the original paper about it said his work had been misinterpreted.
The health and fitness industry runs on fads and hype, and I don't believe anything that's not backed up by good sound science, as in actual, double-blind studies. Anything else is witch doctor medicine.
(in reply to Misanthropy)
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RE: PH use at my age - 1/26/2004 1:04:28 PM
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Twin Peak
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Powerhaus
quote:
I don't think there's any doubt that they work
Is too! 
Not by those knowledgable on the subject.
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(in reply to Powerhaus)
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RE: PH use at my age - 1/26/2004 1:12:42 PM
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Twin Peak
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Take 600 mg of 1-AD daily, for 6 week, and you too will KNOW that it is an anabolic hormone. No ifs ands or buts.
Take a good oral 4-androstendiol, or 1, 4 andro, or straight 1-testosterone product, and you will KNOW they "work".
Do they meet all the claims made? Of course not. Are they highly anabolic? Of course.
Is the FDA trying to do something about it? Damn sure there are, there is even a proposed bill in congress to bad them.
Most of your other statements are hyperbole, like the "FDA would do something", argument.
Must it cause liver damage? No. You are comparing it to normal mthylated or oral steriods like d-bol. The methylation increases the bioavailability by making the steroid able to survive the liver (this is what causes liver damage). 1-AD is an inactive hormone that is activated by the enyzmes in the liver.
Oh, BTW, since you are so behind the times, you should know that there are various companies who have methylated 1-testosterone increasinging its oral bioavailability and likely converting it into an entirely new anabolic compound.
This are VERY potent. Legal or not, they are being sold as supplements.
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(in reply to Twin Peak)
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RE: PH use at my age - 1/26/2004 1:37:55 PM
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Powerhaus
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Testimonials aren't proof. Double-blind studies by people who aren't financially vested in the outcome are.
I may be "behind the times" in what's the latest thing being hyped, but one thing that never changes is all these amazing claims, and a constant changing of the subject when you ask for hard science studies to back up the claims. No, I don't pour over "Muscle Media" to see what Bill Phillip's latest sceme for making money is, I've been at this too long to care.
However, if you can show me good solid studies that AD-1 is really all that, my opinion is open to change.
<rant = on>
Prohormones are steroid substitutes. Even if they do what they claim (big if in my book), they still don't work as well as steroids. Putting chemicals RELATED to steroids in your body in the hope that it will kinda sorta do the same thing as steroids is misguided. The only reason there is a market for prohormones is because the hormones are illegal for most people, and people want a legal way to juice up. They also represent a VERY profitable segment of the supplement market, and there are PLEANTY of "professionals" who make a lot of money selling them and (therefore) swear by them. I've seen whole PH "packages" that cost as much or more than buying steroids on the black market would.
I've tried PHs, it was really hard to tell if I felt any different than I would have without them. I only took them when I was already working out a lot and eating right, so I felt great anyway.
I've also had the opportunity to try the real thing, prescribed by my doctor. There is no comparison, no comparison at all. I used to be REALLY anti-steroid because of the long term health risks, but now I honestly have to say I am indifferent at worst, because real testosterone has signifigant quality of life benfeits. I think a lot of men would chose to take supplemental testosterone and accept the long term healh risks.
Considering this board is sponsored by a supplement site, what I am about to say is very NOT PC. I am just sick and tired of the whole supplement industry scam. I hate how at some gyms every personal trainer is a salesman, loading up their trusting clients with stuff that just doesn't work. I hate how "horny goat weed" is being bought up by middle aged men. I hate how pro bodybuilders juice up, win titles, then endorse products they have never used. It's all about MONEY, it's not about the truth.
I don't work for a supplement company. I suspect I might know a little more about human biochemistry, energy metabolism, and endocrine function than most people who DO. Don't try insulting me just because I don't agree with you.
<rant = off>
(in reply to Twin Peak)
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RE: PH use at my age - 1/26/2004 1:57:40 PM
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Marc David
Posts: 6742
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1) Will you buy my e-book
2) Horny goat weed is the bizom!
3) quote:
Prohormones are steroid substitutes. Even if they do what they claim (big if in my book), they still don't work as well as steroids.
Who can argue that?
(4) quote:
I hate how pro bodybuilders juice up, win titles, then endorse products they have never used.
I hate the first two.. but we all know if you and me got on-stage.. nobody would come to see us. People demand FREAKS. They wanna see ripped abs, tanned, HUGE.. so..
And endorsing products. That is crap. But you gotta pay the mortgage. It's just a job. There's very few bodybuilders/pros that don't. A few do.. but they don't get the publicity either.
If somebody said.. hey.. $20K for posting with my Optimum Whey.. you'd pass that up on principal? You have kids. You do what ya gotta do.
It's up to the consumer, and forums like this to say... hey.. 1-AD is a better prohormone then X brand. Our testimonials should be the truth. The studies. The words of reason. Not some pro who's gotta job to do.
5) quote:
Testimonials aren't proof. Why not? I don't need anybody's study to tell me when I take creatine I feel stronger and more muscular. Not everything needs a study behind it if 99% of the population says they get benefits. Compare that to NO2, where 90% of the population says they don't. I don't need any study to know that Creatine works for me and NO2 is just a feel good kinda thing. Testimonials are as much proof as some study paid for by a supplement company or one that is done (ZMA study comes to mind and Glutamine) based on activities not related to what I do.
This is an industry that moves faster then any hardcore, scientific, neutral based organization can move. Every week there's some new fat burner. Do they work? Some do, some don't. By the time you get your study, it will be a long wait.
Creatine doesn't' even have long term studies behind it. That kind of research takes 10+ years. Are you going to wait 10 years to make a choice? No. But if 90% of people on forums say.. holy crap man.. 1-AD is the bomb.. after 2 months.. that's all the proof most need.
Kids don't need studies to tell them onions are nasty. They only need other kids to say "testimonials" to tell them.
6) quote:
I suspect I might know a little more about human biochemistry, energy metabolism, and endocrine function than most people who DO.
I agree. Your posts prove that. And when people read posts like this, they begin to think for themselves a bit more. They can either look for these studies and hold back, or search for more testimony from people not affiliated in any way with the company.
Maybe what I'm saying is..
Studies are over-rated and not really possible in this industry. Moves too fast. Everybody wants one. Nobody is getting one.
And testimonials can be just as good of proof. Unless everybody on this forum who posts has a reason to falsify, most people will give their honest opinions. There's no reason for them to do otherwise.
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(in reply to Powerhaus)
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RE: PH use at my age - 1/26/2004 2:10:04 PM
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Powerhaus
Posts: 1065
Joined: 12/17/2003
From: Oakland, CA
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quote:
Studies are over-rated and not really possible in this industry. Moves too fast. Everybody wants one. Nobody is getting one.
And testimonials can be just as good of proof. Unless everybody on this forum who posts has a reason to falsify, most people will give their honest opinions. There's no reason for them to do otherwise.
It's all about money. They could have studies if they were willing to pay for them. This why we have the FDA, because too many people were dying from snake-oil salemen's potions. And believe me, those snake-oil salesmen had PLEANTY of testimonials.
In court, eyewitness testimony is both the most convincing to a jury and the least accurate. Companies can pick and choose their testimonials too.
And if I was offered $20,000 to endorse something? Well, you only get endorsements by being a FREAKING FREAK anymore, and I wouldn't want to have my livelihood depend on pumping myself full of steroids. I make my living off using my head, and it'll last longer than my pecs...probably. I'm glad I don't NEED to endorse something to take care of my kids.
Maybe I should go work for these people
*NOTE: This statement has not been evaluated by the FDA. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.
< Message edited by Powerhaus -- 1/26/2004 2:11:20 PM >
(in reply to Marc David)
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RE: PH use at my age - 1/26/2004 2:25:38 PM
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Marc David
Posts: 6742
Joined: 4/6/2003
From: Bay Area -CA
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quote:
This why we have the FDA, because too many people were dying from snake-oil salemen's potions.
And also why we have forums. Where we can all chat, give our testimonials and other proof that things work.
I would agree that on a site or in court.. you can get people to side with you.
But I don't think the 90% of people who say creatine works, are being paid or endorsed by anybody. They are giving independent opinions. And while opinions are not facts, sometimes you don't need facts to be right. Or to make a good choice.
quote:
And believe me, those snake-oil salesmen had PLEANTY of testimonials.
On their site.. On their product pages.. materials.. yes.
But forums? Unless it's paid for by a company.. and regulated to censor any negativity.. the testimonials may go either way.
Take AvantLabs..
Their forum.. sponsored by them. They have taken testimonials from people who use their products. According to your thoughts.. yeah.. but they might only take the good ones. Making the testimonials invalid.
Okay. So say that's true.
Go to Cutting Edge Muscle forums or BB.com.. or IM.. and you'll find plenty of others giving good, positive feedback about the staff and the products.
These people cannot all be paid nor have a vested interest.
And yes, Avant could "pick and choose their testimonials too. " It would be stupid to put feedback that says.. OMG, this sucks.. But forums have that feedback. They are your testimonials that are not always paid for by anybody.
I give feedback at Amazon.com on books. Nobody paid me to write those.
Point being, if you get your testimonials from a wide variety of sources, you are better off then if you just view the ones at a company website.
I agree with that.
quote:
and I wouldn't want to have my livelihood depend on pumping myself full of steroids.
And I wouldn't wanna have my livelihood depend on my "actually" working 10 hrs a day missing my family or posting on this forum. People gotta do what drives them. I don't want that either. But then again, I don't want to collect trash or do other things either. We all have jobs. Or careers. I don't want to be a lawyer either and have my life depend on my reasoning abilities.
quote:
I'm glad I don't NEED to endorse something to take care of my kids.
True. But you could still endorse my signature! 
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(in reply to Powerhaus)
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RE: PH use at my age - 1/26/2004 2:57:50 PM
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Twin Peak
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Insult your intelligence? Please, you are insulting all of our collective intelligence when you claim that Substance X, Y and Z doesn't work, because you have seen studies regarding the lack of efficacy regarding related substances A and B. Your lack of hubrious is even greater when you "opinion stated as fact" flys in
the face of THOUSANDS of testimonials.
This is particularly true when speaking of various pro-hormones and pro-steroids where you can literally see changes (good and bad) as they happen.
Taking a basic (or even in-depth) understanding of human endocrinology and applying to that which you know nothing about is not impressive.
Now, let me address your Rant about the supplement industry. You are correct. It sucks. Claims are absurd, many products are worthless, and many companies are fraudulent. Bullshit before and after pics about, and useless endorsements are the norm. I couldn't agree more.
Now, let me address your Rant about studies. You obviously have not one iota at the cost of these. It was way about and medium to small company to be able to afford them. Also there is little value, in terms of sales.
P.S. Actually, Avant Labs collects good and bad feedback, and both are posted with a link from the product page.
P.P.S Avant Labs does not sell anything hormonal.
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(in reply to Marc David)
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