Overtraining?

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Overtraining? - Monday, June 01, 2009 11:52 PM ( #1 )
Am I overtraining???

HAHA, JK!

Since joining DB, I've learned that's something plastered around a lot.

Every time you view another discussion board, people are telling other people they're overtraining.

I've heard from one of the more knowledgeable members of this board - smoundzou that overtraining is such a bad thing it cannot go unnoticed and most of us are not even capable of fatiguing our Central Nervous Systems to the point of injury.

Well, I wanted to learn more on the subject because I used to be one of those guys that told people they were overtraining when I saw biceps getting worked 2X per week... whenever I do a yahoo search I get things like "WHY ARE YOU OVER TRAINING?"... the on Wikipedia it says "overtraining is a very common condition for athletes".. goes against what I've read from the knowledgeable members of this forum - Marc David, smoundzou, coldfire..

So does anyone have any links they can share with me so I can learn about CNS fatigue to the point of injury? I've read over reaching and understand it but overtraining tends to be something that is over hyped and can take months to recover from.

So can someone enlighten me on a few details about this? Perhaps a written message or an article?

I'd highly appreciate it.

Thanks guys.
<message edited by MVP on Monday, June 01, 2009 11:56 PM>
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Re:Overtraining? - Tuesday, June 02, 2009 12:37 AM ( #2 )
you know they let yahoo's write wikapedia entree's right?

Ill try to find a few of the articles I have read. Ill tell you what though, this question is probably better asked over at strengthmill, and maybe even ask rippetoe if your that serious about it.
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Re:Overtraining? - Tuesday, June 02, 2009 12:51 AM ( #3 )
I figured guys on here could probably give me some good information on it but if I don't find what I'm looking for on here I'll make an account on strength mill and see what Mark says, I have starting strength - just haven't read the whole thing... perhaps I can find something in there.
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:20 AM ( #4 )
Say whatever you want but your body is not a machine. It needs to recover from a huge demand of energy.
We never rest and eat perfectly...but we do ask our body to train hard.
Most of you guys reply like you were gurus but you're not...same for me....I am not.

But I do know from experience and knowledge that overtaining is real and can happen to the best of us. You can have a professional burnout...why can't you have a physical one ?

Just take a look at the pros, the don't train everyday, they try to eat the best possible food there is, they are followed by known specialist from all science, nutrition, physiotherapist, ergonomist, doctors, massage therapist....

Now, make sure you understand my point, not saying you will all have one overtaining moment in your life, just saying you can if you don't give your body some chance.

Working your legs 4 times a weeks with heavy as hell squats will lead to overtraining...periodization is one way to avoid this but still...having a week or 2 to rest is never a bad thing when you fell your gains are not growing as fast as you wish.

This is no perfect science, this is me belief and knowledge.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 11:01 AM ( #5 )
Nic
Working your legs 4 times a weeks with heavy as hell squats will lead to overtraining...periodization is one way to avoid this but still...having a week or 2 to rest is never a bad thing when you fell your gains are not growing as fast as you wish.


I agree. But I don't squat 3X per week I squat 1X per week and  my legs are growing just fine and getting stronger each workout.
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 11:19 AM ( #6 )
My thoughts on overtraining are that it does exist, but your body is capable of handling much more then we tend to believe.  Our bodies are very strong and adaptable.  IOW, we can really take quite a beating and still recover.

Basically it comes down to not being a p***y.  If you are not seriously injured, there really is no reason not to train.  When you reach the point where you are simply exhausted to no end, just go to sleep.  Then when you wake up the next day, continue not being a p***y and get back to training.

See, this whole "overtraining" thing is bodybuilders' excuse to be p***ys.  So we lift some weights, and it gets us tired.  Big deal.  Unless I can't move one of my limbs I'm still gonna train, and I'm gonna train hard.   When I get done, I plan on feeling tired and beat the hell up.  I will then go to sleep.  If I'm still feeling tired, unrecovered, and beat up the next day, too bad.  I'll still train anyway.  I'll catch up on my sleep when I get a chance, but until then I will train hard.

Look at guys in the Marines and stuff.  Those guys are true warriors.  Look at professional football players and boxers even.  They constantly are beating the hell out of themselves.  

It basically comes down to just stop being a whiny little girl.  Lift f***ing heavy a** weights.  Eat a s***load of good food.  Go to sleep when you need it. 

You're not overtraining, you're just being a b*tch.
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 11:38 AM ( #7 )
This is where you are wrong.

Military don't workout, they do hard cardio routines and fighting strategies.
Football players don't workout too much during the season, they try to keep the body to a state of health. They only practice routine and they add cardio to it.

By your understanding we are pussies and you are too cool...I will be more healthy than you at 35 because I listen to my body and know there is more important than being strong and huge...
I have one life to live and I intend to live it old and healthy.

Not resting enough is the #1 reason people get injured.

But I am a pussy...what do I know about being cool.
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 11:42 AM ( #8 )
Overtraining is so hard to get to, thats what most people dont understand, most will never even reach that point. Usually what happens to people is they over-reach. I would go as far as say the only people possible of pushing themselves this far is olympic athletes and elite lifters.

I highly doubt you have experienced over training, it would take months of recuperation and your body would feel horrid. Like I said you would be able to notice befor eyou even got to this point.

A burnout or over reaching is one thing, over training is another.

Most pros train 5-7 days a week, so yes some do. But they are also on things I dont even want to think about, its never a good idea to compare natural guys like you and me to professional body builders...

Im not sure why you said squating heavy weight 4x a week... no sane person would do heavy squats 4x a week. Guys do and myself squat 3x a week, but it is laid out into a low internsity/high volume, low/low, high intensity/low volume days. Its never 3 days of consistant heavy squats.

And im not really sure why you brought periodization into the discussion...

As for the guru comment...Thanks! I do try ;)

Nic


Say whatever you want but your body is not a machine. It needs to recover from a huge demand of energy.
We never rest and eat perfectly...but we do ask our body to train hard.
Most of you guys reply like you were gurus but you're not...same for me....I am not.

But I do know from experience and knowledge that overtaining is real and can happen to the best of us. You can have a professional burnout...why can't you have a physical one ?

Just take a look at the pros, the don't train everyday, they try to eat the best possible food there is, they are followed by known specialist from all science, nutrition, physiotherapist, ergonomist, doctors, massage therapist....

Now, make sure you understand my point, not saying you will all have one overtaining moment in your life, just saying you can if you don't give your body some chance.

Working your legs 4 times a weeks with heavy as hell squats will lead to overtraining...periodization is one way to avoid this but still...having a week or 2 to rest is never a bad thing when you fell your gains are not growing as fast as you wish.

This is no perfect science, this is me belief and knowledge.



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Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 11:50 AM ( #9 )
nice undies tho...

This will do the same thing than Splits and Fullbody

Some pros and cons...
Some do take a break just in case...some don't...time will tell.
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 11:53 AM ( #10 )
There are some good periodization squatting cycles for powerlifting that use squats 4x a week.  Not something you can do week in and week out though.

I think overreaching is commonly confused with overtraining.  It makes enough sense, if you are feeling beat up and your lifts are going down, many people would say that theyre overtraining when the term is actually overreaching.

Overtraining is a serious problem and one must continually overreach to get themselves to that point.

I think honestly people just need to know their terms.
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 12:13 PM ( #11 )
Thank you kindly sir.

But I dont think there is a debate here, I think you have over reaching confused with over training.


Nic


nice undies tho...

This will do the same thing than Splits and Fullbody

Some pros and cons...
Some do take a break just in case...some don't...time will tell.



6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"








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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 12:34 PM ( #12 )
RollingStone


There are some good periodization squatting cycles for powerlifting that use squats 4x a week.  Not something you can do week in and week out though.

I think overreaching is commonly confused with overtraining.  It makes enough sense, if you are feeling beat up and your lifts are going down, many people would say that theyre overtraining when the term is actually overreaching.

Overtraining is a serious problem and one must continually overreach to get themselves to that point.

I think honestly people just need to know their terms.


Yes!  I do think that this is a common misunderstanding.  When someone is feeling rundown from hard training, it probably is due to overreaching, which can easily be fixed by catching up on some sleep.  "Overtraining" is very hard to do (at least from descriptions of it that I've read.  And no, I've never experienced any of the symptoms, therefore I don't believe I've ever overtraining)
 
@ Nic, yes I am cool.  You are right.  I wasn't directing anything at you so don't get offended.  I was just saying that no one has the right to be a p***y.  Working out hard and feeling beat up because of it is a good thing.   Listen to your body of course, but don't be a b***h about lifting due to fear of "overtraining" that's all.
 
BTW, I've been feeling more beat the hell up from this MMA stuff then the gym, and that's all cardio stuff, bodyweight circuits, etc...(similar to stuff they would do in the military).  IMO, if I were to fear overtraining it would be from that as opposed to my gym training sessions.
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 1:12 PM ( #13 )
Guys I wasn't confusing with overreaching and overtraining.

I appreciate the debate that went entirely against anything I asked for directly but I was just curious to some articles explaining common overtraining  rehabilitation requirements such as how long it took to recover, side effects, how long the person was training, the volume and intensity they were using.. frequency of their workouts.. etc.

Most articles I'm finding is contrary to everything I've learned about overtraining on discuss bodybuilding as with the forum I used to post on the only smart person on there is coldfire and although I'm unfamiliar with a lot of his posts on here I learned more about it from him in his 150 posts  before I was banned than the admin and mods that made a combined +10,000 posts...they were really the one that yelled overtraining every 15 seconds.

I'm just looking for maybe a couple articles that determines overtraining refers to the nervous system and not the endocrine system as another administrator claimed and not the muscular system as Madcow and Marc David said something about it was a history of psychological demand from the nervous system.

Nic never said 4X per week squatting was overtraining...he implied that it could lead to overtraining and depending upon the volume, intensity, years of fatigue it could do so IMO.

But anyway if someone could post an article or something regarding overtraining or maybe someone that has had experience with it let me know...I mean surely since everyone in the world claims overtraining when they see 3 movements for biceps someone has had some or even a little experience with it?

I mean everyone in the world is overtraining yet no one has experience with it? It's proving my point.
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 1:22 PM ( #14 )
he said it would lead to over training... its the same thing. and yeah squating nothing but heavy weight that many times a week will get you to over reaching fast.

I was just saying no one here has ever advocated that, but RS made a comment about some power lifters utilizing 4x a week, which I have never heard of, and im interested about now. I would like to know how many of those days are indeed "heavy"

No one on here is really going against your point... we have had the general consensus of that around here for awhile now, just sometimes the occasional new member will drop an overtraining thread.

But you still seem to be throwing around over training like it is easy to achieve. And you act like everyone here yells over training all the time.

DO what I suggested earlier and go ask rippetoe/strengthmill guys if you want to know more about it that bad.
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 1:30 PM ( #15 )
Nm0ney34


he said it would lead to over training... its the same thing. and yeah squating nothing but heavy weight that many times a week will get you to over reaching fast.

I was just saying no one here has ever advocated that, but RS made a comment about some power lifters utilizing 4x a week, which I have never heard of, and im interested about now. I would like to know how many of those days are indeed "heavy"

No one on here is really going against your point... we have had the general consensus of that around here for awhile now, just sometimes the occasional new member will drop an overtraining thread.

But you still seem to be throwing around over training like it is easy to achieve. And you act like everyone here yells over training all the time.

DO what I suggested earlier and go ask rippetoe/strengthmill guys if you want to know more about it that bad.


I'm not throwing overtraining around - I'm reading about it a lot and interested in learning more about it. And I'm not saying it's easy to achieve, I'm saying it's very difficult to achieve but most people of the world tend to believe it's the easiest thing on earth.

I don't have an account on strength mill and wouldn't really want to make an account just to make one post but if I have to I will...I could just go over there and use the search option though and see if any previous posters have asked about it .
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 1:33 PM ( #16 )
Alright so I just went over to strength mill and was looking around for posts that delt with overtraining in the ask Rippetoe thread and the only thing I found was someone was asking about grip training and Rippetoe said it's very easy to overtrain the grip.

It says I already have an account on there as MVP but I forgot the password, it sure be easy to get my password - I'll let you know the feedback I get.
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 1:39 PM ( #17 )
I was actually tempted to go over and ask your question and see what he said.

thats funny though, I have an account over there, but I rarely visit due to lack of activity of the regular forums. Not really rippetoes
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 1:42 PM ( #18 )
Ah, I would have appreciated N$...thanks.

I'm going to try to get my password and see what he says, I'll bring it back over here with quote to the thread.
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 1:59 PM ( #19 )
I typed up a post about how I squat, bench, deadlift, OH press, run 3-4 miles and do spread out sets of DH pullups six days a week, but this is about overtraining, not lifting.
Based on my insignificant experience, I think the average lifter is going to have a hard time overtraining or even overreaching, it requires much work and you would probably have to purposefully try to get there.

I have to agree with Brihead, Drugs or no drugs, the human body can do a lot more work than what most people seem to think possible. I also have to say that "not being a p***y" is no excuse to run yourself into the ground and walk away excessively tired, repeatedly. I think "lifting within your reasonable means" and walking away from the weights feeling empowered and able to do more is a much better method, still tired at the end but not burnt out.

I'm 1.5 weeks into a 2 week cycle of heavy lifting and I feel great, I think this kind of lifting can be done daily if you build up to it but its not for me to test. I will be going back to 2 weeks of calisthenics when the lifting cycle is over. I'm not sure if I should blame my strength gains on GTG training or retraining squats and going ATG, both seem to be beneficial.

Nic, from what I understand, the US military does do a lot of strength training mixed in with a **** ton of cardio, at least that is what this book under my display tells me, "The United States Marine Corps workout". Not exactly a very helpful book but then again it was given to me at Christmas with a lot of weights.
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:56 PM ( #20 )
Nmoney, here is the smolov russian squatting cycle.  Its designed around peaking for a contest and from what Ive read of people who followed it exactly, it worked amazingly well.  Ive never tried it though.

http://www.ontariostron...ing/smolovsquatcycle.htm

the volume is unreal.

edit:  it would help to read the whole article but if you are just trying to skim through it real quick, realize that the set/rep lists are backwards in their country so 3 x 10 which we would interpret as 3 sets of 10 actually means 10 sets of 3
<message edited by RollingStone on Wednesday, June 03, 2009 3:59 PM>
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 4:06 PM ( #21 )
o ****. yea, the smolov is a literal big daddy of all squat routines. it requires squatting daily somewhere in the end of the routine if i rem correctly.
im not able to chk the link though.. at work it's blocked.
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 4:53 PM ( #22 )
MVP


Nic
Working your legs 4 times a weeks with heavy as hell squats will lead to overtraining...periodization is one way to avoid this but still...having a week or 2 to rest is never a bad thing when you fell your gains are not growing as fast as you wish.


I agree. But I don't squat 3X per week I squat 1X per week and  my legs are growing just fine and getting stronger each workout.


Just saying a personal opinion here..for people with little experience squatting 3x a week can be great..just saying. I prefer 2 times a week myelf but it all depends on the situation.
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 5:00 PM ( #23 )
The one thing that can lead to true overtraining is lextreme lack of calories, but none of us have that problem so we are cool!
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:09 PM ( #24 )
brihead301


The one thing that can lead to true overtraining is lextreme lack of calories, but none of us have that problem so we are cool!


Brihead I have to disagree on this one...that's under nourishing a muscle - catabolism.

I've never heard of a case of someone that truly overtrained, people just overreach in the studies I've read. I've been searching since I got home and just can't find anything dealing with someone that's actually overtrained.
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:13 PM ( #25 )
http://www.deepsquatter...gth/archives/hanna19.htm

I found this. Pretty good read.
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:15 PM ( #26 )
Thibaudeau:

"Misunderstanding 'Overtraining'

If you ask me, "overtraining" is the most abused and misunderstood concept in the entire strength training community! Perform more than twelve sets for a muscle during a workout and you'll undoubtedly be accused of overtraining. Train a muscle group more often than two times per week? Overtraining! Relying on set extending methods such as drop sets, pre or post-fatigue, or rest-pause? What are you doing? Don't you know that's overtraining and you'll shrink faster than your masculine pride on a snowy Canadian winter night?!

Yes, overtraining can eventually become a problem when it comes to your training performance, injury risks, and growth. However, it's far from being as common as most people would have you believe.

The problem stems from the term itself, which is composed of "over" and "training." Because of that term, individuals are quick to equate it to "training too much." So every time someone thinks that a routine has too much volume, frequency, or advanced methods, they're quick to pull the "overtraining" trigger. When someone is tired and has a few bad workouts he'll also automatically assume that he's "overtraining." In both cases this shows a misunderstanding of what overtraining really is.

Overtraining is a physiological state caused by an excess accumulation of physiological, psychological, emotional, environmental, and chemical stress that leads to a sustained decrease in physical and mental performance, and that requires a relatively long recovery period. There are four important elements in that scientific definition:

"Physiological state:" Overtraining isn't an action (i.e. training too much) but a state in which your body can be put through. In that regard, it's similar to a burnout, a medical depression, or an illness.

"Caused by an excess accumulation of physiological, psychological, emotional, environmental, and chemical stress:" Stress has both a localized and a systemic effect. Every type of stress has a systemic impact on the body; this impact isn't limited to the structures involved directly in the "stressful event." This systemic impact is caused by the release of stress hormones (glucocorticoids like cortisol for example) and an overexertion of the adrenal glands.

So every single type of stressor out there can contribute to the onset of an overtraining state. Job troubles, tension in a relationship, death in the family, pollutants and chemicals in the air we breathe, the food we eat or the water we drink, etc. can all contribute to overtraining. Training too much is obviously another stress factor that can facilitate the onset of the overtraining state, but it's far from being the sole murder suspect.

"Leads to a sustained decrease in physical and mental performance:" The key term here is sustained. Some people will have a few sub par workouts and will automatically assume they're overtraining. Not the case. It could simply be acute or accumulated fatigue due to poor recovery management or a deficient dietary approach.

A real overtraining state/syndrome takes months of excessive stress to build up. And when someone reaches that state, it'll take several weeks (even several months) of rest and recovery measures to get back to a "normal" physiological state. If a few days of rest or active rest can get your performance back up to par, you weren't overtraining. You probably suffered from some fatigue accumulation, that's all.

Worst case scenario, you might enter an overreaching state (a transient form of overtraining). Reaching that point will normally take 10-14 days of rest and active rest to get back up to normal. Overreaching can actually be used as a training tool since the body normally surcompensates (with rest) following overreaching. Elite athletes often include periods of drastic training stress increases followed by a 10-14 day taper to reach a peak performance level on a certain date.

"That requires a relatively long recovery period:" As we already mentioned, reaching a true overtraining state takes a long period of excessive stress and requires a long period of recovery. The following graphic illustrates the various steps toward the onset of an overtraining state as well as the recovery period needed to get out of these different levels.

The spectrum goes from acute fatigue, which is the normal fatigue caused by a very intense/demanding workout, right up to a true overtraining state. In all my life, I've seen two cases of real overtraining. In both cases this happened to two high level athletes right after the Olympic Games (accumulation of the super intense training, the stress of qualifying for the Olympics, and the stress of the Olympics themselves).

Understand that most international level athletes will train close to 30-40 hours per week. Obviously not all of that is spent in the gym; they also have their sport practice, speed and agility work, conditioning work, etc., but these still represent a physiological stress. Yet rarely will these athletes reach a true overtraining state.

How could training for a total of five or six hours per week cause overtraining? Fatigue, yes, mostly due to improper recovery management, a very low level of general physical preparation (conditioning level), or a mediocre work capacity.

To paraphrase Louie Simmons, North American athletes are out of shape. Being out of shape (low level of general preparedness or conditioning) means you can't recover well from a high volume of work. But the more work you can perform, without going beyond your capacity to recover, the more you'll progress. So in that regard, poor work capacity can be the real problem behind lack of gains from a program.

By continually avoiding performing a high level of physical work, you'll never increase your work capacity and will suffer from accumulated fatigue as soon as you increase your training stress ever so slightly. Obviously, the solution isn't to jump into mega-volume training, but to gradually include more GPP work as well as periods of increased training stress that will increase in duration and frequency over time.

Ask any of my clients �?? they must all go through four-week phases of very high volume work interlaced between phases of "normal" volume training (or even phases of low volume). And as they progress through the system, the high volume phases will become more frequent (as their work capacity improves) or last longer."

^ Even better!

Source:- http://www.tmuscle.com/...le.do?id=1442461&cr=
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Nm0ney34

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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:35 PM ( #27 )
very nice read
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:38 PM ( #28 )
Thanks N$.

Supports everything I've learned about it...I was beginning to think I confused myself, I told a kid on the dungeon he wasn't overtraining and was attacked by like 60 different people! LOL
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 11:28 PM ( #29 )
I'm not too sure about over training in the sense of working out too much to injury, but i have heard from a "reputable" source lol that the initial work out tears the muscles, the first day is recovery, and the third is repair, and that if you work out the same muscle groups on the recovery or repair days you are just causing yourself unescessary pain because you will not get any additional benefit from it...
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Re:Overtraining? - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 11:33 PM ( #30 )
That source is incorrect. It takes weeks for muscle tissue remodeling (full recuperation).

Your body doesn't have to be fully repaired to workout again, you just have to adjust the volume and intensity as necessary. You can train the same movement/muscle again 48 hours later.

Overtraining refers to, as the article states, psychological and nervous system. It takes months of ignoring overreaching and can take up to months to recuperate.
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