On the topic of Over-reaching...

Oh noes...yes I brought it up...hey at least I didnt say "OVER TRAINING" RUNNNNNN!!!!

So I experimented with myself, and I am on the 20 rep squat program. And I just want to talk a little about it and what im feeling now physically and mentally.

I have pushed myself pretty hard with some programs through this past 17 or so months. I have experienced a good amount of fatigue and physical stress.

Im going into week 5. I skipped my last workout...and I am the kind of guy who never skips workouts. I go to the gym sick, terrible weather...I mean its just not in me to miss workouts deliberately. I play football on saturdays, and I just KNEW that if I got under the bar with my current mental and physical state, there was no way in hell I was going to complete or come close to completing 280x1x20. It just wasnt going to happen.

I really dug down, and completing 275x1x20 was absolute hell, Probably took me a good 4 minutes + to finsih the entire set, and my whole body was in a tremendous amount of pain. Worst I have ever felt. My legs, for the past few days...have felt awful along with the rest of my body. I feel worse then fatigued, I feel like im running at 50% most of the day.

I was playing football, and I got winded and fatigued WAY faster then I normally do. Granted I was guarding a CB who plays semi-pro...im just not in that kind of shape to be guarding someone that fast...lol. But I did well, interception...TD, few catches, tackles blah blah...The entire time I didnt even feel like I was 100% there.

All my body feels like doing is laying down and sleeping.

I mean its just things I have noticed.

I would always take note with this routine how I was feeling after squating 20x and how the rest of my workout goes with the other exercises.

week 3 is when the fatigue really started showing up more. start of week 4 was just devastating.

Now...i took this past worout off, even though I played ball to give myself some extra time to rest. Come Monday I am going to see how I feel and if things are a go I will be continuing with the program at 280x1x20. I mean all things considered I will be continuing, im just a little intrigued and confused because for the first time in my training career I really feel like I have reached an over-reaching state. The stress and fatigue have just been so much. The restlessness, I have very little appetite lately, and I just feel so damn tired.

It could be other things that factor in to have accelerated this, but it wouldnt be anything I could prove as definite.

I cant even say I have experienced any regression in performance either, but im sure I will find out. Maybe I might even drop the squats to 2x a week in order to keep progression going for the full 6 week duration. But whatever I decide to do, will be based on how monday goes.

Now that I have rambled on long enough, I was wondering if anyone else has felt like they truly reached and over-reaching phase with stress and fatigue.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

I believe you. 20 rep squats are brutal.

I myself feel like I've been to the early stages of overreaching before. Isonmia, depression, loss of appetite, loss of sleep/strength, etc.

I seem to reach it more when I've taken a break from training, and instead of starting back light come in trying to work with my old PR's, while the strength is almost there I push myself too hard and it just causes me to get worse and worse.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I mean I could be wrong, but I dont think I am.

Im sure the cardio doesnt help when trying to recover between workouts, and the full contact football has left me pretty sore a couple weekends.

It would be interesting to see how much further I can progress, without taking a hit in regression, my guess is another week...if that. Dude...I shudder about getting under 280 knowing what 275 did to me...but the thought of progressing further just sounds too nice.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Not overtraining or overreaching probably, but there was a time when I got so addicted to working out that I would go both before and after work, for two hours plus each workout.  Some Saturdays too if I recall.  I would just pound my muscles into submission with high reps, many many sets, and not so much weight.  I would leave pumped up like a balloon and barely able to stumble to the car.  I loved that feeling.  It was such an addiction, like a drug.

But now I don't put near that amount of time into it, and yet I have never looked better.  Back then I knew nothing about nutrition.  I had a high metabolism and thought I ate like a horse.  Now I know better.  I thought as long as you were eating and pumping iron in the gym, you would grow.  I didn't realize how much you have to eat.  And all that time under stress may have been holding me back, when I needed rest and conservation of energy to make gains.  I am happy that I now know the secret, and that even at my age, I can make very good progress!  :)

Try a CNS test to see if you're blown. It's good to keep track of your CNS to know when to push and when to back off. It sounds like you're tanked and need a week or 2 off.

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thats sounds worse than overreaching.  Overreaching is real easy to get to and doesnt really make you feel slow all day or cause you to lose appetite.

working on explosive phase
vertical: 35
weight: 206

Big 3: 300/440/515

Strength and growth come only through continuous effort and struggle.

Sounds like an injury waiting to happen, imo.  Do you think a week to decondition might be productive?

I would recommend you to just take a week off, then return to the 20 rep squat program or start back with Bill Starr's or the Texas method. Maybe even make a routine up of your own making squats the center of focus, 20 rep squats are brutal and hard on your nervous system. I can't imagine having 280lbs set on my back for 3 minutes, seriously.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Although the word "overtraining" is definately something that is thrown around way too much, it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

You sound like you are overtraining.

Squatting 3x/week for sets of 20 and constantly increasing the weight will definately beat the crap out of you.  All the symptoms you are experiencing should be a sign to listen to your body, and back off.  I'd deload for at least a week, possibly 2 weeks....

2 weeks off won't kill you.  Rather, it's probably the best thing you could possibly do for yourself right now. 

BTW, props on doing 20 reps w/ 275 lbs. That's bada**!!!!  But definately chill out for a bit, you deserve it.

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

you grow when you rest...ive been getting my best gains doing DC 1 day on 2-3 days off (with pushups and pullups on off days at home but i dont go to failure)

Personally i dont have the genetics to recover in 24 hours before lifting heavy again but im also taking 16 hours of school and its stressing my ass out

Hows your lifestyle outside the gym..stress free or what?

YOU GOTTA EAT BIG, TO BE BIG!!

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I'd say you're without a doubt overreaching, probably not overtraining but close to it. I'd just take a week off and come back and do something like the Texas Method or something else of your choice. Maybe even run a cycle of HST or DC. Not many people can last long on such a demanding program like the 20 rep squat.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

it blows my mind that this program is supposed to run for 6 weeks...

Well like I said, im going to be stubborn and see how I feel tomorrow. :P

I suppose having a never quit work ethic, can hurt you sometimes. Thanks for the input guys.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

i dont think its the result of a six week program, but more the result of 17months of training that happens to occur when you are in the middle of an extremely intense program.
i think that this sounds a bit more than over reaching.

over reaching can occur after a couple of months, and then a week of low weights (or a week off entirely) will set you going again. for your own well being, i would strongly advise that you take your next week lightly. if thease squats are as hard as you say they are, then the last thing you want to do is feel faint after 18 reps with 280lbs on your back.

Bench Press Max - 170kg @ 100kg
Squat Max - 220kg @100kg
Deadlift Max - 275kg @100kg

Weight - 90kg

N$,
    I know you're adding 5 lb per workout for the 20 rep squats, right?  How did you come up with the Week 1 Day 1 weight and the Week 6 final workout weight?  Could you have been "ambitious" in those early days when the weight seemed too light?  I found that with the HST:  Those early workout weights seemed ridiculously light but if they were too high (even though they seemed too light) by the time the end of the cycle rolled around I was blasting through to new PRs, which wasn't necessarily the point.  And in some cases, I had to abandon the progression and stall or form would suffer.  What's the point of your program?  Strength, size?

well theres a calculator I used. I basically took my 5rm and subtracted 5 lb's for every workout that is planned in the program, or 5x18. 5x18=90, so my 5rm was about 320-335 I think. I actually ended up starting lower then I should have just to ere on the safe side. even if I took 320, -90 would be 230.

I started at 225.

the entire point of this program is size. But I didnt even think about it and leeman brings up a great point in maybe it has been my training as a whole and it just caught up to me with this intense program. Or maybe I just wasnt as rested as I thought I was before I started this. I have never deloaded for 2 weeks before, so ill give it a shot here pretty soon. staying in the gym 2x a week with a decreased workload of course.

Perhaps deloading for 2 weeks this time is what I need to do.

Let me ask you guys this then... How often do you usually deload, and what do you do when you deload?

the only thing im sure of is if I take a week off completely no gym time, I come back weaker.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

So your 5RM is supposed to become your 20RM in 6 weeks?!!!  What sadistic SOB came up with this?  Do you get transported through some wormhole to a parallel universe where munchkins march on yellow brick roads and oompa loompas swim on chocolate rivers?

Srsly, what was your 20RM coming into the program?  And other people are able to accomplish this?!  Do you have spotters?  Do you expect to pack mass on your core or just legs?  Think you said your legs have grown (as if Quad God needed that to happen, imo!  j/k!)

Sure, I think your first few workouts after a deload are going to be weaker.  But the come-back ramp up should be quick and you'll be fresh as a daisy.  I don't really see the downside.

Good workin' out!  :)

It's Dr. Squat who came up with the program JMBS.

N$ I can't take a week off, if I do I either get lazy or lose all my strength so I just do a light week. Always train kind of "hard" during the light week...

For example if I was training benches originally at 3 x 8 with 205 or something... then the light week I'll do 3 x 15 with 145 or something. Just basically take it easy, don't take a complete week off. That's how I have to do it or else I just lose strength and have to deload the next week and add 5lbs until I was where I originally was.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP


It's Dr. Squat who came up with the program JMBS.

N$ I can't take a week off, if I do I either get lazy or lose all my strength so I just do a light week. Always train kind of "hard" during the light week...

For example if I was training benches originally at 3 x 8 with 205 or something... then the light week I'll do 3 x 15 with 145 or something. Just basically take it easy, don't take a complete week off. That's how I have to do it or else I just lose strength and have to deload the next week and add 5lbs until I was where I originally was.

And people actually make their 5RM their 20RM in 6 weeks?!  Sounds like alchemy to me!
MVP, check out my journal (don't want to jack!) regarding recoving from my back injury!  Thx!

I don't see how that would be possible really.

Rippetoe recommended 20 rep squats with your 10RM. With the exception of breathing squats, so maybe converting a 10RM to a 20RM is a more realistic goal.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

the calculator was used to take my 5rm and figure out my 10rm to start the program with.

thats what your doing, your converting your 10rm to your 20rm, but forcing yourself to add 5 lb's each workout...

dont get it confused the only thing 5rm was used for was to calculate my 10rm.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Nm0ney34


the calculator was used to take my 5rm and figure out my 10rm to start the program with.

thats what your doing, your converting your 10rm to your 20rm, but forcing yourself to add 5 lb's each workout...

dont get it confused the only thing 5rm was used for was to calculate my 10rm.

 

Ahhh, now I get it!  Sorry.
 
N$,  your ultimate goal is strength, right, for football?  You've probably mentioned this, but I forget a lot:  What position are you interested in and what abilities do you need for it (squat strength for push off the line, press strength to push guys away/down, speed, acceleration, jumping ability, throwing power/accuracy?
 
Also, some positions need mass even if it's fat, right?  For momentum and to squish guys like bugs?

Im mainly going for a skill position, so I need to be fast, powerful, agile and quick.

This program is being used to simply put on some more muscle, and to experiment on myself with it.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Skill positions?  Receiver, running back, that sort of thing?  Offense, right?
When you try out, do they test/ask what your lifts are?

Have you considered trying the conjugate method N$?

I know that most football camps/teams require a bench press 225lb rep test. Most of those guys are throwing it up for more than 20 reps and some of them weigh under 200lbs!

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Nm0ney34



Perhaps deloading for 2 weeks this time is what I need to do.

Let me ask you guys this then... How often do you usually deload, and what do you do when you deload?

the only thing im sure of is if I take a week off completely no gym time, I come back weaker.

normally once every 6 weeks for one week. i cut out cardio (apart from my weekly football/soccer match) and do the same weights routine with the same number of reps but only half of the weight; similarly to an article which was posted last week, but with longer cycles. if there is regression i will nip it in the bud and go light the following week.
 
 i only have a time out when im either on holiday abroad (normally two weeks per summer), christmas eve--->obxing day or when im injured, which, irritatinly, only seem to be football related.
 
i think that deloading for 2 weeks is a very good idea

Bench Press Max - 170kg @ 100kg
Squat Max - 220kg @100kg
Deadlift Max - 275kg @100kg

Weight - 90kg

I just started doing the 5/3/1 program about 2 months ago (f***ing loving it BTW), and I plan on running it for at least a year.  This program has a scheduled deload every 5 weeks.  I skipped the deload for the 1st cycle, but I won't be doing that anymore.

About the 20 rep squats....well 20 rep squats, IMO, are more then just a test of strength.  They are a test of will power and character.  See, squatting is unlike benching whereas if you hit "failure" for benching, you simply can not push out even one extra rep.  With squatting for reps, "failure" is hard to reach.  I mean, you could be shaking and gasping for air, but you can usually push out more reps as long as you have the will to do it.  With benching, you just can't do that, because you're muscles won't allow you to do it anymore.  Squatting uses your whole body, so "failure" doesn't usually happen.  The fact that with the 20-rep squat program, you start with your "10 RM" and force yourself to do 20 just goes to show that it's not really your "10 rep max", because if it was, you wouldn't even be able to do an 11th rep.  Those extra 10 reps come from some crazy driving force inside you that makes you keep going.

........And then you keep adding 5 lbs. and doing the same thing over and over 3x/week for 6 weeks.  Now THAT'S where indians sleep!

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358