Need Opinion on 2 day split routine from starting strength

Hi,

My main goal is to lose some wait and gain some muscle. I'm doing a 2 day alternating routine. Let me know if this routine is not making any sense or is perfectly fine for my goal or if I should add anything.

Day A:

DeadLift 5X5
Press   5X5
Squat w/ Alternating PowerClean       5X5
Abs                         

Day B:
Deadlift  5X5                                       
Bench Press 5X5
Back Extensions 3X5
Chins 3X5 
Abs

Thank you

why are you deadlifting every workout? You need to be squating every workout, the squat is the basis of all your strength training. While the deadlift is extremely important and you can lift more weight doing deads. The mechanics of the squat are important for overall strength gains and sports performance.

let alone your doing 5x5...

Is there a reason why your not sticking to the original program?...

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Nm0ney34


why are you deadlifting every workout? You need to be squating every workout, the squat is the basis of all your strength training. While the deadlift is extremely important and you can lift more weight doing deads. The mechanics of the squat are important for overall strength gains and sports performance.

let alone your doing 5x5...

Is there a reason why your not sticking to the original program?...

The reason I wanted to do deadlifts is to improve my upper body strength. Why is the squat more important than the dead lift for strength gains and sports performance?

Mostly mechanical reasons and the growth hormone response.

Dont worry about your upper body with the original program, and squats may not involve the upper body the way you want, but neither does the deadlift.

Doing squats will help your bench, OH press, arms...basically everything improve.

Stick with the original program...You will be glad later.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Do you think the routine by itself is fine or should anythign be added to it?

No, follow SS the way it is designed without changing it at all, and your upper body strength will greatly improve.

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

Thank you all for clarifying on my question

If you're going to add anything to the original SS program, have it be chin-ups, pull-ups, and some direct ab work.

I did chinups at the end of workout A, and pullups at the end of workout B, and just kept alternating....

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

adding assistance exercises is fine at the end. But dont change anything with the core workout itself unless its absolutely necessary.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

haha why would you ever change the workout thats just not smart

YOU GOTTA EAT BIG, TO BE BIG!!

NASM certified trainer
NFPT certified trainer

Winter Bulk goal:245-250 by dec 31
Current weight: 235

Guys,
   Hate to jack, but, errr, my new title!  ;)

Getting the SS book in mail today, but while I wait impatiently, SS is good for hypertrophy too (my goal) and not just strength (desirable but lower priority than size for me)?  Thx!  :)

JMBS,

Think about this: If you are squatting 3 times a week, deadlifting, bench pressing, overhead pressing, power cleaning, and doing pullups, and you are increasing the weight every single workout, and you are doing this all while eating in a caloric excess, do you think your muscles will get bigger?

If you don't know the answer, then I will answer it for you.  Yes, lifting heavy weights and eating a lot will promote "hypertrophy".

Please read this:

http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/My-own-personal-philosophy-on-why-it-is-necessary-to-get-stronger-to-get-bigger-m435778.aspx

And then go on to read this, which was written by someone more reputable then myself:

http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128189

Then go read Rippetoe's forum for a while:

http://strengthmill.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=36

Then if you still don't believe that heavy weights + a lot of food is the way to get big (aka "hypertrophy"), then go ahead and do a bodybuilding routine that you find in a muscle magazine.

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

Thanks Bri!  I read through your article which was amazing!  Will look at the other links later!  Thx again!  :)

Muscle grows from food and progressive overload. A routine focused on increments of resistance each workout (a linear method) is overload, which results (with food) in hypertrophy.

Beginners respond better from a progressive resistance style approach, focusing on strength progression until they then start needing microdamage, although it differs from each individual.

JMBS I'd focus on a compound movement routine at the moment, isolated style training is only better for bodybuilders that are juiced up. Did you try the light/heavy push, light/heavy pull routine?

At this point, the only movements necessary for hypertrophy are barbell rows, pullups/chinups, bench presses, overhead presses, maybe even some weighted dips, barbell curls, skull crushers, if you're a bodybuilder you'll need to pay close attention to your arms.

Calves and stuff like that are mainly genetic. My calves are huge, from hunting and squats. Traps are the same way, mine are huge from every other exercise, I don't know what a shoulder shrug feels like. Some people need shrugs though, so it's entirely individual.

I'd focus on a 3 day split or something. I just wrote one on another board, a lower/upper body split. You might enjoy it.

Workout A: Lower Dominant
**Squat
**GHR
**Deadlift
**Chins, Pulls, or Pulldowns
**Hanging Leg Raises

Workout B: Upper Body Dominant
**Bench Press
**BB Row
**OHP
**Pullup
**Weighted Dips

I don't like recommending stuff like that to guys are your level of experience though because you may need certain accessories. Incline presses are useful for bodybuilders to may the chest appear more full, I certainly need them. It's just where everyone is so different with accessory movements.

List the body-parts you feel are lagging in relation to the rest and I'll throw something together for you.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Edit: Nevermind, focus on this program.

http://www.discussbodyb...Y-FULL-BODY-m303404.aspx

Include the movements you need, smoundzou is highly intelligent. He listed some accessories that may be necessary. But as mentioned, accessories are dictated by genetic response to stimuli, usually a deficit at that, so it's individual.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP


Edit: Nevermind, focus on this program.

http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/3-DAY-FULL-BODY-m303404.aspx

Include the movements you need, smoundzou is highly intelligent. He listed some accessories that may be necessary. But as mentioned, accessories are dictated by genetic response to stimuli, usually a deficit at that, so it's individual.

MVP,
   Thx!   Tomorrow is my last HST workout, then a week off for Strategic Deconditioning.  I just got Starting Strength in the mail today.  It's going to take a while to soak that big book up!  I liked the four day heavy/light push/pull routine you gave me, MVP.  After I read the book for a while, I'll come to a conclusion for what to do.  If Rip has a routine in the book, perhaps I should just follow that.  Thoughts?
 
Questions:  What are "Arnolds"?  And for power cleans, are you dropping the bar to the floor from the top?  That won't fly at my Y, I'm certain!

I wouldn't worry about power cleans, they are a focused power movement. They're not a movement focused on strength and your posterior chain should get plenty of work with squats, deadlifts, and even to an extent rows and overhead presses (isometrically).

Rippetoe's routine is for beginners. Mainly those that can progress using linear methods. From the looks of you and your statistics, you're not a beginner. If you were to look into a routine like his, Bill Starr's 5 X 5 and / or the Texas Method should suit you good.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

On another note, have you considered DC J?

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP


On another note, have you considered DC J?

First off:  mriggy, sorry for jacking!
 
MVP,
   Posted this in my journal.  One thought I had was a 3 day full body alternating a/b/a b/a/b as follows:
 
I'm thinking of an alternating A/B program sort of as follows, perhaps 2 working sets of each:

Pullups
BO BB Rows
Squats/Deadlifts (alternate)
Flat bench/Incline bench (alternate)
Dips
S OH Presses
BB Curls

if time permits:
Crushers/Pullovers (alternate)
Standing/Seated Calves (alternate)
Abs (isometric and isotonic)
Following HST principles:  progressive resistance, 15 rep, 10, 5, 5RM 2-wk minicycles.
 
Any good?

You'll need to work the opposing exercise to the barbell curl, which can be a tricep extension or skull crusher, it's needed to balance the elbow.

You have all your opposing movements, vertical/horizontal pushes and pulls, squats, deadlifts (no hamstring work though). Remember that the best way to overload a muscle is by working it's primary function. I see you have both standing and seated calf raises, which is good... one will work predominantly the gastrocnemius, the other the soleus..

I'm a bit confused on the alternate, you're going to do those every single day? It seems like a lot of exercises and volume. I'd still recommend trying smoundzou's program and alternate with movement variations. Remember that with testosterone elevation, cortisol is often elevated too and if your workouts are longer than an hour, cortisol (the catabolic hormone) will dominate.

Good to see you're following HST principles. Progressive resistance rocks! If you're going to use those principles later on too, you'd want to avoid Bill Starr's, the Texas Method, the conjugate method, or starting strength, which are based off their own principles.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP,
   When I say "alternate," for instance Squats/Deads, that would mean squats on A days and deads on B days.  Actually worried that't not enough squatting.  No problem w/crushers.  I love them and my tri's are taking off!  When you say no hamstring, you mean no knee flexion, right?  Because the squats and deads do get hammie action, no?  I could always throw in some SLDLs or leg curls.  Yeah, I hear you on keeping w/o's to under 60 min.  They've been creeping to 90 min lately.  Thx!
 
Oh, and why don't dips balance out the curls?

Danmirage answered it better in a previous thread with a better explanation than myself.

Hamstrings respond as the primary concentric mover to 2 movements:
Flexion at the knee (Leg curl type movements) and extention at the hip (Stiff leg deadlift type movement.)
 
During deadlift and squat they are eccentric stabilizers of the two movements.  While the stimulus is there...it is not equal to the stimulus on the other site of the joint.

It was taken from here: http://www.discussbodyb...e-please-m227743-p8.aspx

Hamstring stimulus comes from a whole other side of the joint and is needed, as mentioned, to balance out the stimulus that comes from extension. Flexsion balances at extension, and it's not just about working the hamstrings directly but balancing the joints.

I get what you're saying as far as alternating, and your legs will grow from once per week or twice per week squatting. If they're creeping up to 90 minutes, definitely cut it down into shorter sessions.

Workout 1:
**Squat
**GHR
**Bench Press
**BB Row

Workout B:
**Deadlift
**OHP
**Pullup
**Calf Raises (standing)

Workout C:
This day is based on individual accessory movements. Just throw stuff in there and maybe even include another exercise on the previous days. That with HST or DC principles should definitely get you going.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP's routine suggestions are definately great ones.  Any routine consisting of primarily compound lifts and progressive overload is going to work excellently as long as you give it your 100% effort.

SS is just another example of an excellent routine, and I personally like it the best of out any of the suggested full body routines that I've ever heard of simply because of the 3x/week squatting and the simplicity (yet very effective).  I am a firm believer that full squats are, by far the #1 best lift you can do no matter what you are going for - strength, size, endurance, etc...

Now the fact that it is sometimes called a "beginner routine" is a misconception.  It is not a beginner routine at all, it is a NOVICE routine.  Novice just simply means that the lifter is able to make 5 - 10 lb. linear increases in weight every single workout.  Once that isn't possible anymore (after a few resets of course), then the lifter is no longer considered a novice.  Someone could be lifting for 10 years and still be considered "novice" according to that definition.  Novice gains are, by far, the fastest and most efficient gains one can make.  I mean, how much more can you ask for then an increase in weight every single workout?

So no matter which routine you decide to go with, aim for getting the most out of the "novice gains".  Personally, my favorite is starting strength, but that's just because I love squatting more then I love my girlfriend, so a routine based around squats is obviously going to be my favorite choice

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

Yeah, you're right brihead. Novice is a much better word to use.

Reason being for the linear progression and it doesn't matter how long you've been training, is that when the muscle is new to correct overload then the nervous system demands previously inactive motor units in the fibers be recruited. So you'll gain strength each workout or at least every other workout.

You can go into linear programs like that beginning with a 95lb bench press, 135lb squat, 185lb deadlift and come out with a 225lb bench press, 255lb squat, 285lb deadlift (and I mean for reps). Linear methods are often the most challenging. << I've saw it done. 30lbs of mass easy (if you eat right).

I agree a back squat is the most useful exercise in the world. The only thing with SS is I believe rows and chins should be a staple with any program personally.

Edit:-- I think squatting every workout should always be a staple with any routine. You work your upper body each workout, why not the lower body too?

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

you can add assistance exercises to the starting strength routine, you can do it with just the compounds...or you can add in some extra assist's at the end.

I know we differ on this because I think in that program with cleans and deadlifts, your back is seeing plenty of work. But adding in the chins/rows is fine, just keep the volume low.

I dont really see a difference in using the term novice or beginner. They essentially mean the same thing. Novice just sounds a little nicer. I mean your definition is correct but whether you term it as beginner/novice gains is really subject to ones preference on how to say it.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"