My Goal (First Draft) Open to suggestions

Hi again everyone!
 
I thought I'd present my dilemma and see what the group would do if it were me... they were me... it was me... ummm... whatever. 
 
As of this week, I weigh 177 (130 LBM) which is about 28% body fat as indicated by the bioelectro measurement gizmo.  I enjoy bicycling and over the previous summer I lost a lot of weight and improved my wind.  During the winter, I utilized the fitness center at work and have been adding plates as I lost weight, maintaining my same lean mass.
 
Spring is coming (I hope), and I'd like to get down to 12% body fat by early summer.  At 2 pounds a week loss, I think that's a realistic goal in itself, but I'm not sure how attractive I'd be at 12% bf with my frame.  So, should I:
 
A.  Try to bulk up a few pounds knowing that I may put on too much fat given that I'm already at 28 percent bf, then "cut" to 12% with cycling/weights? or
 
B.  Continue a low calorie diet to reach 12 % by summer and run the risk of looking a bit 'sickly?'
 
I've been told numerous times that I actually look better fat than thin, even though the health charts will count me as a few pounds heavier than I should be.
 
Any advice would be very welcome.  Thanks!
 

Well, first of all, Joe, welcome to DBB! 

Since you asked, if I were you, the first thing I'd do is ditch that bio-impedance BF analyzer.  I've seen your MySpace photos, and there's NO WAY you're hauling 28%  In my experience, those devices are about as accurate as an exit poll.  And, ironically, they become even less accurate the lower your BF% drops and the more athletic you become

I see no reason why you can't pull a complete trade-off of body fat for lean mass -bulking only has to be a fat-gaining escapade if you get really reckless with the calories.  The good news is, you don't have to binge on calories to support clean, consistent hypertrophy.  Now, having said that, I've been blasting away with the calories in a mad dash to wrap up my current short-term goal by Feb 3 after a few months of goofing off.  That has cost me in terms of the quality of the mass I'm gaining.  If I had stuck with my plan, kept the calories consistent, and hit the iron with the same intensity and passion I'm hitting it with now, there's no reason I couldn't have closed this phase with a clean 10 lb gain.

I'll let folks like Cursor and DanMirage speak to the clean bulking specifics, cause they can do it way better than I can.  But step one is to get the most accurate picture of where you are starting from.

As to your more general question: A lower bodyfat percentage and more lean mass looks buku attractive on any frame.  Go for it!

[Edit] (oops!  I didn't realize that this was in the "over 35" forum!  This is no place for whippersnappers like me... Back in 9 days, he he he)

Firstly, I agree with are tomato juiced whippersnapper friend, and ditch the electronic gizmo.  It's best for seeing trends--if you can take the measurements under the exact same conditions each and every time (good luck with that!).  Invest in the cheapo body calipers and get back to us--even the one-pinch test will be better!

Second, while I agree that--for at least some people--you can gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously, my observation is that the muscle gained isn't all that much, and the fat loss isn't stupendous, either.  I'd pick either.

Third, having said that, I'd recommend, based on my own experience, that I'd aim first for putting on some significant mass, which should help in the fat loss department, at least at a later date.  You WILL lose some fat if you don't over-eat (say 300-500 calories over maintenance), but don't rely on it as a fat loss time.

You might not get to your 12% this summer, and that's ok.  Any positive change will look good on you, as it does on all of us!

Welcome!

"If there's nothing else that's relevant, I'll be leaving now"

"Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground"

Thanks for the welcome Veggeep :)
 
I think I'm starting to agree with you about the bio-impedance analyzer, but then again, I've been on a few websites that have methods for measuring bf% using a tape measure.  Taking neck, wrist, waist, chest, etc., measurements; the two methods matched up pretty well.
 
Now... having said that:  The calipers are on order.  Does anyone want to pinch my back? haha
 
 

ORIGINAL: gzinkl

Firstly, I agree with are tomato juiced whippersnapper friend, and ditch the electronic gizmo.  It's best for seeing trends--if you can take the measurements under the exact same conditions each and every time (good luck with that!).  Invest in the cheapo body calipers and get back to us--even the one-pinch test will be better!

 
See post to the "whippersnapper-" they're on order.  I think I got a good deal on them too, even with two day delivery to my PO Box.
 
Thanks for the welcome gzinkl!  It's a pleasure meeting you-- and everyone else here in this forum.  Feels like a nice place.
 
I'll consider what you and veggeep have said, as well as others as the thread continues.  Once I get the calipers figured out, I'll post again and we'll take it from there.
 
Have a great day y'all!
 
 
 
 

It was suggested by veggeep that your (current?) photos are viewable online. Can you point to them with a link? That would certainly help.

¯
"Push your limits — define aggressive goals"
_________.P R O G R E S S___P I C S

Hi Cursor:
 
My photos are at http://www.myspace.com/joe6635.  I also have a yahoo360 page under the profile joe6635.  If neither of those work for you, let me know and I'll set up a directory somewhere. 
 
See ya!

Damn ... I'm a scorpio too! What are the chances?
From what I can see, it doesn't look like it would take you very long (that's relative, of course) to get into pretty darn good shape. Unless you're hoping to get really big, you should be able to add some serious pounds of LBM without loading on the fat. The keys lie in 1) getting the adequate, but not too much fuel, 2) consume it at times when your body is ready to pack it away into the right places, and 3) doing enough resistance training to stimulate your muscles (and supporting connective tissue) for growth.

¯
"Push your limits — define aggressive goals"
_________.P R O G R E S S___P I C S

Thanks for the advice Scorpio... er... umm... I mean.. Cursor :)
 
I guess the trick is going to be a subtle balance between calories consumed and workout.  As I've said in other posts, I've never been one to be able to put on lean mass- then again, I've never tried seriously.  I've lifted off and on over the years, especially when I was younger but that was more for general conditioning and not "building."  I improve my strength easily enough, but don't seem to gain the inches in lean mass.
 
As soon as the calipers come in, we'll see where I am and with help from the forum, I'll tailor my initial routine.

ORIGINAL: veggeep


Since you asked, if I were you, the first thing I'd do is ditch that bio-impedance BF analyzer.  I've seen your MySpace photos, and there's NO WAY you're hauling 28% 

 
Ok, so my calipers have finally arrived!  Now I'm more confused than ever lol
 
These are the "one site" calipers that measure in mm, so per the instructions I measured the "one site."  29.5% which is consistent with the bio-impedance BF analyzer.  Then I remembered veggeep's quote above, and found a website that has a "three site" method (stomach, chest, thigh) and came up with 19%.
 
Now, taking the 19% BF number as the more accurate one for the moment, and knowing that in order to lose belly I have to lose all over (can't spot train the stomach to lose fat), do I really want to do that knowing that it's difficult for me to gain lean mass.
 
So, the data is in.  Constructive criticism is welcome, and all advice will be considered before I move forward.  Thanks y'all!
 
 

1-site methods are not as effective as 3-site.
 
What's key in measuring your body fat (regardless of the method: hydrostatic weighing, caliper skin-fold measurements, etc.) is in accurately measuring change. For example, if you decide that you're going to use the FatTrack II digital calipers (this is what I use), then the calculated body fat percentage will be in accordance with the Jackson-Pollack 3-site measuring system. For men, this involves pinching the skin, then measuring the thickness of that fold, three specific points in your body:

• chest - Pinch and measure skin-fold thickness (diagonally) at one half the distance between the anterior auxiliary line and the nipple. The digital readout is given in millimeters.
  
• abdominal - Pinch and measure skin-fold thickness (vertically) at 2 cm (20 mm, 3/4 inch) lateral to the umbilicus (navel, bellybutton). Again, the digital readout is given in millimeters.
  
• thigh - Pinch and measure the skin-fold thickness (vertically) on the front-middle of the thigh. The digital readout is given in millimeters.

The sum of these numbers, along with one's age, is used to calculate a percentage body-fat.
 
Over the course of my transition through improved personal fitness, I have used this skin-fold measurement technique to track my progress. Frankly, I really don't care what percent body fat the device calculates for me. What is meaningful to me is how the pinch measurements change.

¯
"Push your limits — define aggressive goals"
_________.P R O G R E S S___P I C S

Do you divide your nutrient intake across 5-7 meals per day?
What about your workouts -- when and what?

¯
"Push your limits — define aggressive goals"
_________.P R O G R E S S___P I C S

do I really want to do that knowing that it's difficult for me to gain lean mass.

Sorry.  I can't answer that question for two more days, LOL!

Just kidding, Bro.  Sounds good.  19% is a boatload more believable.  I have a website that uses 3, 4, and 7 site measurement methods (the same formulas I use in my calculations), but it's bookmarked on my other PC.

Yes, I'd recommend you go ahead with your fat-reduction plans.  Just make sure you're getting adequate protein, and you should be able to fend off any serious catabolism.  Make sure you incorporate a good, heaping dollop of strength training to keep the muscle fibers challenged and growing.

Think of fat loss like swinging a pick-axe.  You don't have to put 110% force into every swing -you use your strength to hoist it over head, then guide it as gravity takes care of the down-stroke (there's a reason it weighs 20 lbs ).  In this analogy, muscle takes the place of gravity.  Use your energy to get your metabolism up and increase your muscle mass, and the increased muscle mass will continue to burn the fat even when you're sitting around compiling PowerPoint decks for The Man.

I am wondering who will be first to sing Happy Birthday to you :)
 
Cursor left me a message as well, and because I get confused easily I'll try to address both of your replies in THIS post.
 
I also have the 3, 4, and 7 site calculator bookmarked http://www.dietandfitnesstoday.com/skinfold3Site.php not sure if it's the same one you use or not.  I should find a place to post my progress, starting with today's measurements as a baseline.  I've kept a very sloppy log of my workouts and diet but I should become more disciplined about it.
 
As for my previous workouts... I started out at 199 lbs and focused on cardio using elliptic machines, recumbent bicycle machines, and old fashioned bicycling until I got down to 180.  From there, I gradually started some circuit training at the company's fitness center.  I got to a point in my workout where I thought it was time to change up, but reached the following (usually MWF):
 
Modest calesthentics to warm up
 
Then, using 3 sets: first set 10 reps, second set usually 10 reps, third set to failure.
Seated Bench Press
Lat Pulldown
Leg Extensions (two sets only at 10 rep max)
Leg Press (two sets only at 10 rep max)
Seated Row, Close Grip
One Hand Crossover
Seated Press (machine is temporarily broken)
Preacher Curls
Assisted Dip
 
Cool down with 15 minutes on elliptical machine at moderate intensity.
 
I'm gaining strength and adding more weight to each exercise, but not seeing any muscle increase, nor fat loss so I thought the change up was due.  I'm thinking Tues/Thurs high rep, low weight free weights in the garage; cardio on MWF for 30-40 minutes.
 
My original goal was to reduce body fat to 12 percent, so in keeping with the goal, I'll use the three site measurement.  But to Cursor's point, I'll also track the measurement in mm, especially my over-45 belly fat.
 
I need to get a PowerPoint presentation put together.... thanks for the replies :)
 
Joe