Max-Ot Complete Routine

ok i try to stimulate my mind:)
Now few other questions:
1. Everybody in my gym and i think 90% of bodybuilders don't do like max ot says that negative phase have to be 2 times longer than positive. Now i'am doing negative ant positive phase equal. So if i began to do negative pahse 2times longer, than my weights will decrease 20%~, and i think that if i do negative pahse 2times longer, i my increase will be more in weight, nor in streght. So what is your opinion about this question?
2. And i didn't see in max ot training program what are the barbell take width. I think u understand what i mean. Let's talk about bech press if u take barbell narrow u will train your chest inner side and also your trips, if your barbell take will be flat, than u train your chest sides.. So what are barbell take width? We can also talk about biceps, shoulders and etc. barbell take width..

I have positive failure question.

Lets say I really struggle with my 5th rep. Do I attempt a 6th rep even though I know I can't do it?

If I do attempt the 6th rep, do I have a spotter help me finish the lift or do I just stop the lift when I can no longer proceed on my own?

Thanks

waterdog5...

No. Once you reach positive failure, that's it. Don't have a spotter help you with rep 6. If you need help with rep 5 to finish it off, that is what they are there for. But doing rep 6 would be a forced rep. That's not part of the program.

You stop the lift when you can no longer proceed on your own, unless you are right in the middle of the lift and need a spotter to give you a little help to finish the rep. But once they touch the bar and help, you've reached positive failure. Which means you can no longer complete a rep under your own power.

lopas...

Not sure I understand the questions. I just do a good 4 second negative phase. It does wonders for maxing out the intensity. As far as "width" in concerned, the old standard of shoulder width apart is good. Putting your hands closer in on the bench press will just work more triceps. And the wider grip on biceps would put a lot of stress on the elbows and tendons. Again, should width is a good grip. Maybe a tiny bit wider for a bench if that is comfortable.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

Hey all...

I'm doing my first back workout in my 2nd 8-week cycle of Max-OT (i.e. weeks 10-13). So, I'm actually on Week#1 according to chapter/lesson 12. Looking ahead to Week-2 (week 14-17 for me) the first back exercise is pull-ups. They specify 50 reps, using as many sets it takes to get there. I can barely do a single set of 4 reps. That would take me 12 sets to get to 50 reps! With 2-minute rest, that would take almost 2-hours. This seems somewhat out of line with the rest of the Max-OT workouts (not the time, but the way they specify these reps). Any suggestions as to how I might tackle these using a substitution, etc? Thanks in advance!

=Macka

A success is one who decided to succeed - and worked.
A failure is one who decided to succeed - and wished. (Ward)
There is no tomorrow, Rock!
There is no tomorrow! (Mickey Goldmill)

Assisted pull-up machine would be one option.

I did this routine. It's way out of the norm of Max-OT but damn it was awesome. I got it down to nearly 4 sets. Probably one of the most mentally tough things to do.

It's a great change up to the "lift heavy" every workout.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

ORIGINAL: mda1125
Assisted pull-up machine would be one option.
I did this routine. It's way out of the norm of Max-OT but damn it was awesome. I got it down to nearly 4 sets. Probably one of the most mentally tough things to do.
It's a great change up to the "lift heavy" every workout.

Hey MDA...great suggestion.....I really like that idea. Problem is that I work out at home and don't have one of those. I have a bench with incline, decline, squat rack and a separate lat machine that supports all kinds of pulldowns and seated rows. Could I just do pull-downs instead? It's the same basic motion as pull-ups? As long as I stay in the parameters of Max-OT, I should be ok, right?

A success is one who decided to succeed - and worked.
A failure is one who decided to succeed - and wished. (Ward)
There is no tomorrow, Rock!
There is no tomorrow! (Mickey Goldmill)

You work with what you have.

A pull-down simulates a pull-up in a sense. Considering what you have to work with, I'd say go for it. Try and do 50 of those.

Just don't do wide-grip pulldowns are the next heavy exercise!

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

WOW!!! That was a quick response!! Perhaps I'll load the machine with close to my body weight. I can back it down enough that I can do 50 in a reasonable amount of sets. How many sets is reasonable with a 2 minute rest? Perhaps 5 sets of 10? Oh, the next exercise is close grip v-bar pull-dwons. THANKS!!!
-Mack

A success is one who decided to succeed - and worked.
A failure is one who decided to succeed - and wished. (Ward)
There is no tomorrow, Rock!
There is no tomorrow! (Mickey Goldmill)

Sounds about right.

I didn't rest that long. I just waited until I felt I could go again. I didn't make it a 2 minute rest per set to 50 reps. I just kept going until I got 50 reps.

Then I waited after I was done with 50 reps and moved into the heavy stuff.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

So, are these 50 reps of pull-ups are supposed to be warm-up sets or work sets? The way they are presented, they look like work sets.

A success is one who decided to succeed - and worked.
A failure is one who decided to succeed - and wished. (Ward)
There is no tomorrow, Rock!
There is no tomorrow! (Mickey Goldmill)

Working sets.

I did a couple of light lat pulldowns... then I did the pull-ups as working sets.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

Hello everyone. First of all thanks for all this info. The Max-OT method is appealing, but I still have a few questions after reading all 162 pages of it.

If he says train each muscle group once every 5-7 days, why are there two abs days three days apart?

If he says that you should train between 4-6 reps, why does he list various exercises that have up to 10-12 reps?

If he says you should work one, maybe two, body parts per day, why are there various times when you're supposed to work three or four?

Also, how have the increases been in your one rep maxs in bench, squats, and deadlifts?

Welcome to DB dmitri...

1) Abs are different. They can be trained more often the most of the other muscle groups. I believe calves are the same. And you are not training abs to the same overload techniques.

2) I would guess the 10-12 reps that you saw is something of a warm-up. Working sets are 4-6 reps.

3) The 3-4 muscle groups in a day...hummmm... not sure. You'd have to point me to a page. But my guess is that they are smaller muscle groups. I honestly do not remember working any more then 2 muscle groups in a Max-OT session.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

1) Why are abs different? He doesn't explain why. It's not because they are stronger of weaker than any other muscle group. I don't see how they are any different from any other muscles--they're made of the same stuff.

2) The 10-12 reps is definitely no warm-up. He says right before he gives the workouts that they "do not include warm-up sets." Wrist curls are 8-10 on page 134. Leg lifts with added weight are 12-15 and cable crunches are 8-10 on page 137. There is no shortage of these work sets that are outside of the rep range that he says is best.

3) The workout on page 12 is rediculous. And there are multiple times when he has stiff-leg dead lifts as a leg exercise. He says it works hamstrings. It's not a good workout on a certain muscle when that muscle doesn't even move--and they are STIFF-LEG, meaning your legs and hamstrings don't move. So he lists stiff-leg deadlifts as primarily a hamstring exercise and then good mornings as a low-back exercise. They are both low back exercises; in fact they are both almost exactly the same exercise. To see this, look in the mirror and do a good morning with no weight, then do a s-l deadlift. The only difference is where you hold the weight.

I don't want to make it seem like I'm close-minded on Max-OT, but you can see it's full on inconsistencies, not to mention that he really doesn't explain why it works and doesn't cite any studies or have any data--he basically just says that he knows what's best and that you need intensity and overload and 4-6 reps is best. This is fine for the average person who isn't very smart, and that's who he's after and who he's going to sell his supplements to. (And did anyone else notice that he says that all that magazines say is wrong, and that they're all tied to supplement companies, while half of the PDF is him pushing the supplements from the company that he owns? Unbelievable.) I think the program works only because you and friends of mine have said that it worked for them, but after reading all 162 pages, I still don't know why it works. He spends too much time saying how great it is and how big and strong you'll be and how intensity is key, but he never gives a decent explanation or any real data that supports what he's saying. Even though it works, I think it could be modified to be even more successful.

He also needs to learn how to bench.

For certain muscles, it seems as though the author did decide to go with higher reps- Perhaps because low reps with heavier weight is a lot harder to do with those exercises, or perhaps he just prefers it- I don't think that was clarified. I'm talking about abs and forearms here, and my best guess is that these two muscle groups are heavily depended on in a whole bunch of other movements all week long, so perhaps the author thought it best to go with a lighter workload for them.

When it comes to how Max OT works, I believe it IS explained within the manual- I haven't read it in some time, but you should probably re-read pages 22, 25 and 26- I just got done skimming through and found a decent amount of explanation there- And there's more throughout the manual. The basic theory behind lifting heavier weight with lower reps than a lot of programs out there is this- The body tries its best to adapt to what it's confronted with. If you don't lift weights, you won't get bigger, right? So lifting weight is the trigger to get the body to build muscle- Lifting heavier amounts of weight will push the body to try to adapt to heavier weights- The more weight the body needs to move, the more muscle it needs to build. Overloading the muscle with four to six rep sets is an excellent way to get the body to build more muscle because of the way the body tries to adapt.

When it comes to the big sales pitch for supps- Ignore it if you're not interested. The manual is free, given to you for nothing, and yes, the author is affiliated with AST and I see nothing wrong with him throwing in some detailed ads. Hell, he sat down and wrote the whole thing. Let him push his brand.

When it comes to stiff leg deadlifts, they actually ARE an excellent hamstring exercise- Believe it or not, the hamstrings play a vital role in straightening the body to a standing position. The movement you said was missing is the movement at your waist- Yes, the lower back is involved, but the hams take a pounding also- A lot of beginners think the hams basically curl the lower leg up towards the glutes, because this is the movement you do on a leg curl attatchment- Sure, this does work the hams, but you generally can't use as much weight with that exercise as you can with stiff leg deads. Different movement, but it does work the same muscle. Good mornings are a pretty dangerous exercise because of the placement of the weight- You can use a lot more weight when you're doing stiff leg deads, which means better results according to the principles of Max OT. The fact that it hits the lower back as well as the hamstrings makes it an excellent compound exercise.

Why is it that he needs to learn how to bench?

This is fine for the average person who isn't very smart, and that's who he's after

I think you've just managed to insult a large portion of our membership there- Nice work. I, for one, thought that his explanation of how the program works was clear and well written- I would copy and paste examples here, but I'm not sure about the copyright issues- I'll just ask that you re-read the pages I listed above, and maybe re-read the whole manual. Others have done the same and have not had the same complaints- Perhaps some questions here and there when it comes to clarification, but I've never heard someone say the whole thing was targeted towards stupid people. I do remember some other people complaining about HOW it was written- Sort of repetitive, etc. etc- I can agree with that, but anyone looking for literary masterpieces on bodybuilding websites are looking in the wrong place.

Sure you use forearms and abs in a lot of movements, but this is true of lots of muscles. You can't have a good leg workout without using lower back and some upper back, nor a shoulder workout without triceps and back and biceps, etc. It's not that abs are being pounded more and they deserve less overload. You're right when you say he doesn't explain it.

I re-read those pages, and they say what the keys are to muscle building and that Max-OT uses them. But why are they the keys? He doesn't say; he just assumes people will take him at his word like they'll believe him when he says his supplements are the best. And you say that the more weight the body needs to move, the more muscle it needs to build to adapt. Then why don't you do one rep at the most possible weight? He never gives a decent reason why 4-6 is the best range. It's surely not as intense as a one rep max. This is one of the few basic tenets of the system, and he manages to write 165 pages and I still have no idea why 4-6 reps is better than 2 reps or 1. And all you told me is just exactly what you read from the manual.

And I'm sure all you guys want to defend this method because you use it--I'll probably end up using it too--but you have to admit that it has countless holes and inconsistencies.

As for knowing what stiff-leg deadlifts are for, I've been powerlifting for three years, and at 21 I can deadlift 625, squat 655, and bench 425, all drug free. And let me tell you that if you're doing a stiff-leg deadlift, you will have some good work done on your hamstrings, but your limiting factor is always going to be your low back. You still haven't said how a good morning is going to primarily work an entirely different muscle than a s-l deadlift. It's basically the same exercise except the wieghts are being held differently. You have to see that. The point was that he lists s-l deadlifts and good mornings as working different body parts. As for using a lot more weight with a s-l deadlift, there are plenty of people who can good morning well over 700.

He needs to learn how to bench because he doesn't know how to. And I'm guessing you don't either if you're asking me that. Read how he describes how to bench. If you are doing over 400 that way, you're going to rip a pectoral or ruin your shoulder pretty soon. And if you ever want to bench 5 or 6, it's almost guaranteed. Also, you can do more if you bench correctly, even if you can't immediately, you have more potential. And since this is all about using more weight to stimulate more muscle growth, that seems pretty important.

That's fine if I insulted a lot of people, but that wasn't my intent. I'd like people to think about what's wrong with this program so we can make it better. The tendency when you want to believe something is great and you're putting in the effort to read it is that you do all you can to convince yourself that the information is solid, and it's hard to look at it objectively. I think that the lack of empirical data is inexcusable. It's all theoretical, and even then I've brought up a bunch of points that go unanswered in the 165 pages. That's a lot of pages, and too many of them are sales pitch, repetition, and touting the method. If you write that much, the basic questions I'm asking shouldn't go unanswered--it makes it seem like he has a primary agenda other than making the most effective lifting system.

I have plenty more objections as to why Max-OT is still inefficient, but I'll let this absorb and hopefully get some answers that will show me what I'm missing.

Well, those are impressive numbers that you post there Dmitri.

As to Good Mornings versus SL DLs. Well if you if take a moment to actually look at the movement itself you will notice that the prime movers for BOTH exercises are the Biceps Femoris and the Gluteus Maximus, plus the Adductor Magnus. The difference between the 2 (and the reason why 90+% of lifters should AVOID GMs) is that with GMs you rely HEAVILY on the Erector Spinae as a stabilizer. Additionally, it's a lot easier to round your shoulders with performing SLDLs to help to ease the pressure on the Erector Spinae. So in a way you are correct, GMs will also cause your low back (Erector Spinae) to have to work more than with SLDLs.

As to the 'proper' way to bench, could you elaborate? I didn't know there was a single right way to bench? I'm not sure you have a very deep understanding of Kinesiology if you think that there is only one 'way' to bench. I guarantee you that the way that I performed my benches when I was lifting 450 15 years ago is a lot different than how I do it now. Totally different goals. Therefore 2 totally different movements. With powerlifting it's about shortening the movement as much as possible so instead of bringing the bar to the upper chest, you brought it to the lower portion of the ribcage which helped to shorten the distance that the bar had to travel. Then it was all about moving the most weight period. Now, I'm trying to increase strength and overall muscle mass.

Maybe you need to realize that MAX-OT is NOT a powerlifting workout routine but instead a routine that is targeted to help a large percentage of folks looking to try to gain mass while following a relatively short (in terms of workout time) routine. As with all things, one size does not fit all and if you have been following such an ardent powerlifting regimen then I doubt that MAX-OT would help you much.

Paul

A friend helps you move, a true friend helps you move bodies.

It is but one program of many I've tried. It was the first program I did that was structured. It was the first program that really got my strength gains soaring. And it made sense (at least by reading but not with empirical evidence). Overloading the muscle to force it to grow. I can believe that without much data. However, the rep ranges are always a subject of controversy on every major bodybuilding site. 1-2, 4-6- 8-10.. what's better? Maybe a combination of all of them? Although personally I never got much size out of 1-3 reps. A whole lot of strength gains but my size, general appearance always stayed the same.

Max-OT has worked for many. But again, it's just A program not THE only program. For many beginners, it covers the basic movements. And it makes them push themselves. For advanced people, it's a short, intense workout that I've personally used to reach new bests.

This is fine for the average person who isn't very smart, and that's who he's after and who he's going to sell his supplements to.

Disagree

And did anyone else notice that he says that all that magazines say is wrong, and that they're all tied to supplement companies, while half of the PDF is him pushing the supplements from the company that he owns? Unbelievable

I noticed. I skipped all the supplement stuff but I took the program for what it was worth and gained a lot. I mean, it's a free 165 page program. So to me, it's pretty much expected there will be some motive. I just liked the theory and the principles.

As far as explaining why something works, it doesn't matter that much to me. Because what works for Person A may not work for Person B.

Some people love super-setting, others love long, 4 hours workouts in the gym <in fact we had some 5 hour bench press program pop-up here not long ago>.

I have no doubts if I were to re-read the PDF, there would be holes. And I agree that the evidence is lacking. But it's meant as a publication for people to follow <cult like>, and do it simply without question. And there's the whole supplement thing. It is meant for the general masses. Not the super advanced powerlifter. Nor the super-newbie who's never picked up a weight.

You have to take pretty much every program as a guide. I've never found 1 program yet that answered all my questions, proved them with logical evidence, was simple to read and follow and didn't push a line of supplements. There just isn't a golden program for everybody.

Many people have found Max-OT to be the bomb when starting out and wanting to push themselves. And later, they find other programs, and try new things and make great gains.

And I'm sure all you guys want to defend this method because you use it

Again, doesn't really mater to me.

1- I make no money off it
2- I gained with it, and working out is for me, not somebody else

Just simply promoting one of many programs out there. Variety is the greatest thing about this sport.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

First of all, thanks for all the replies.

pwolf, I'm not saying there is one way to bench, I'm saying that the powerlifting style of taking it low with your elbows tucked, reducing shoulder rotation, is the safest and the one where you can lift the most. I'm sure the Max-OT author would want a safer method, and he stresses that lifting more weight is the key, so the powerlifting style makes better sense for the program.

You also say you changed how you bench so you could build strength and muscle mass. This brings me to another point about Max-OT that, from reading this, I think you'll agree with me. Why is he more concerned with putting up high numbers than using good form and targeting the right muscle? He's admittedly opposed to isolation, and would rather have you cheat on exercises so you could lift more weight. This makes no sense. He says to cheat on bicep curls and to lean forward when doing tricep cable push-downs. If you do this, it's not making your biceps or triceps any stronger, it's just working your low-back or chest/abs in addition to bis and tris--the bis and tris aren't suddenly stronger because you're lifting more weight. Does anyone know what this is about?

You're right, its not a powerlifting routine, that's why I'm doing it--to get more size and strength (especially strength) in the areas that powerlifting doesn't target.

Anyway, I've submitted a few of these questions to the max-ot website and the response is pending, so hopefully I'll get to the bottom of some of this with help straight from the source and tell you what he says. As for now, I'm making my own training program using basic Max-OT principles and some powerlifting training principles, so I'll tell you how it all turns out.

the bis and tris aren't suddenly stronger because you're lifting more weight. Does anyone know what this is about?

I think the point of this type of cheating is similar to negatives- Sure, the target muscle won't be doing all the work on the way up, but when you're lowering the weight, the muscle handles more than it could normally lift. Besides, you're also giving the stabilizers a nice workout.

I was wondering if you could add one or two supersets into the max-ot program..

Hi, I just started on the Max-OT, and i have a few easy to answer ?'s that i am kind of lost on:
1. You do your 5 warm up sets, and then go into 6-9 heavy sets after that? I am confused because on the first week schedule it tells you how many sets to do, saying 2 or 3, etc. I just think i am reading it wrong.

2. Also, for example today i did chest, and on my last two sets, i needed a spotter around the 4th rep, but on the previous 3 or so sets, i could get the 5 or so reps on my own, do i need to decrease the weight? do i need to rest more?

3. Should the warm ups fatigue you in anyway? Towards the end of the warmup should it be getting harder, or do i have to much weight on?

Thanks alot in advance!

Toward the end of the warmup, the weight should be heavy- But not tiring, if you know what I mean. Make sure you get plenty of rest between each set, even the warmups. Basically, it sounds to me like you need to decrease the weight a little- Like the program says, if you can't perform four reps by yourself before going to positive failure, the weight's too heavy. The first few weeks of the program, you should really pay attention to stuff like this to make sure you get the amount of weight right- Don't try to go all out at first, just try to nail the right amount of weight.

thanks for the help but im still lost on one aspect:
It says do 6-9 sets heavy per muscle group, so that means if i do bench, dumbell flys, and incline, each excersize should have 2 or 3 heavy sets? (which would equal about 9 or so). Also on the workout routine i saw it gave 2-3 sets for a certain workout, and the sets added up to be about 11 altogether. Are 9 of those heavy? Can someone please explain, thanks.

Yes, each exercise should have two or three heavy sets. And yes, even when the sets add up to eleven in the program, all of them are heavy sets- You count the warmup seperately. The whole six to nine heavy sets is a basic rule of Max OT, but in certain weeks they do throw in stuff that doesn't stick to that rule completely, such as the back workout where you're doing 50 pullups in as many sets as it takes to get it done- Definitely against the basic principles, but it's still part of the workout.

When i do let's say bench press 3 sets, that the first set must be to failure? I have to do 6 reps and nothing more? If i can do on my own 7 reps, on the first set, than i have to inrease weights?
Or just last set must be to failure?

and another question. How we know best exercises are basic, they increases strenght and mass. But if i train like maxot says there will be just one basic exercise for muscle group per workout, it will be better if i train by his principles but using just basic exercises, no dumbel flyes, no biceps with dumbels and etc..?
Or it will be better to follow all his instructions?
Let's say know my routine is for chest:
bench press
incline bench press
chest on parallel bars

for shoulders
barbell press from back
barbell press from front
and chin ups
and etc.

How we see my routine is set up just from basic exercises and if i start to train maxot there will be less basic exercises and maybe it is bad if i want to gain strenght and mass?

Maybe u people don't understand what i want to ask? Or why u don't help me?

There's 8 pages of Max-OT discussions! I think people have HELPED plenty.

1) Follow the directions---> To the letter.

2) Don't try and switch out exercises, sets, reps and such and then wonder if it's Max-OT.

3) After the warm-ups, all sets are between 4-6 reps to FAILURE. All sets. If you can't do 3 reps, it's too heavy. If you do more then 6, it's too light.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

I've been in the Max-OT routine for about 7 weeks now and I can certainly say that I have seen some awesome gains! I haven't followed the routine precisely though I have stuck to the "Idea" of Max-Ot and it works for me.

I have made at-least 5lb gains per week in every exercise in the last 4 weeks and I'm positive that the gains will keep on coming. Not only in strength have I seen gains but I have noticed size gains especially in my shoulders, chest and legs.

I have stuck to the warm-ups, acclimation, and then the three heavy sets very strictly for EVERYTHING. The first two weeks were basically me trying to find were I stand as far as what weight I need for the warm-ups and acclimations. I have taken a huge notice to my form and I am very strict with myself. I'm eating like a horse too.

I've been pushing the intensity very hard and my workouts just get better and better. As for the exercises and such, I have switched them around a lot and have even changed my entire routine at random to see what else would work out for me. I will be switching everything around again next week and I am excited about a new routine. I feel in doing it this way, at Random, My muscles will not know what to remember and will keep trying to adapt and grow to push more weight.

So I haven't followed what the dude says about Max-Ot as far as the exercises but, I have stuck to the idea of short INTENSE work-outs with PROPER warm-ups, acclimation, and then performing perfect form during three heavy sets. Maybe a little cheating on the last set, but this is permissible to me to increase intensity.

If you want to see how intense they are talking about just watch "Pumping Iron" with Arnold. That's intensity!

I hope this helps...