Loose change - 9/11
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Loose change - 9/11 - 4/28/2008 9:06:48 PM
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Nm0ney34
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loose_Change_(video)
You can also search for it on youtube.
A documentary about the events leading up too, and occurring on 9/11. Presents several facts, video's, quotes and interviews...stating the conspiracy behind everything. Now im no conspiracy nut, I did however for a very long time question a lot of the explanations about what happened.
An extremely eye opening video on just how grave, distrustful, and downright horrible our government can be...or r they?
check it out, if you are interested.
< Message edited by Nm0ney34 -- 4/28/2008 9:30:15 PM >
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 4/28/2008 9:16:35 PM
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DA
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Oh god. Don't believe this stupid bullshit. It's just fear mongering and has been debunked enormously, in fact even on the page you just quoted.
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 4/28/2008 9:28:52 PM
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Nm0ney34
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lol, well everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs.
But would you be so kind as to back up any kind of remarks with facts?
Debunking? its wiki, I would expect no less for them to show both sides to everything. Which is how arguments should be.
Like I said before, everything seemed extremely questionable that day, which is also my birthday =/. That was just me.
Common sense comes into play with a lot of the things in the movie, I never believed most of those BS story's the government tried to use. Gold, oil, politics...they certainly had some motive.
Regardless of what I or anyone thinks, it is a very interesting documentary worth watching imo.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DA
Oh god. Don't believe this stupid bullshit. It's just fear mongering and has been debunked enormously, in fact even on the page you just quoted.
< Message edited by Nm0ney34 -- 4/28/2008 9:30:36 PM >
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 4/28/2008 10:31:05 PM
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Nm0ney34
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I will give it a look.
However, I am not looking to start any venom spewing arguments, because that is sadly what usually happens.
I made this post because I saw the dvd with loose change as well as many other documentary's. I found them rather interesting and it does raise questions. Maybe it will raise a few for people who haven't seen it, maybe not but like I said its worth watching IMO.
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 4/28/2008 11:35:20 PM
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twistedlink
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It's a conspiracy saying the government killed thousands of people just to gain oil in iraq (despite blaming afghans)
Of course it was debunked, if you was the president and it was true, youd debunk it as well
Im not saying i believe loose change, TBH i have an open mind about this because, the FBI did pay arabs in 1991 to car bomb the basement, and thats no conspiracy thats common knowledge nowadays (though im sure someone will post its a myth or something)
To be fair most of loose changes evidence relies on tiny flashes and grainy shadows under planes, that personaly bored me to death, what did interest me is the pentagon footage.
Plane crash, 1 hole, no wing marks, NO debris, and then workers come out to pick up tiny pieces of metal big enough to fit in your pocket.
Come on, weve all seen other plane crash footage, theres a giant plane carcass with **** everywhere, not at the pentagon, thats the only nice bit of evidence that ever made me interested in the theory, and even then its not great evidence.
It is funny though that the americans air force was practicing terror plots and they were emulating the situation of the two towers being blown up, and apparently this is why jets took so long to counter attack the later planes because they didnt know whether it was "real or a mission"
sorry but either arabs got into air forces timetable or...
And then the english buses, police that day were practicing also for a terror attack, not on any buses and trains, on the EXACT buses and trains numbers ID's registration plates and the rest.
Now thats just way too damn suspicious, and the head of police simply said that on live news with quite a concerned voice
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 4/29/2008 12:25:33 AM
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AdamScott
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Sometimes i think to myself the London bombings were a great way for Blair to justify that extremist terrorism was just as strong a national threat as an international threat. Shame our terrorists are born here though and often funded by tax payers like myself. Nice intrinsically retarded system there *cough*.
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 4/29/2008 12:43:28 AM
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Nm0ney34
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Yeah the pentagon footage was very interesting. How they say it hit the lawn and then the wall, no dirt trail, the only plane pieces you could pick up, one circular hole. I liked the part about how the fbi took the footage of the nearby buildings.
The WTC is more trickier with some of the things they are trying to prove. but come on, they really expect people to beileve that frame and steal went down from the the fire? thats BS. jet fuel? that burns up instantly. Building number 7? thats the biggest joke of all. That one was obviously demolished.
Ill admit there are a lot of things in that video that incline me to beileve even more that there was faull play going on.
Some things you can argue about all day but there really are parts where common sense just kicks in and its like wow wtf?
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 4/29/2008 2:04:49 AM
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DA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nm0ney34
Yeah the pentagon footage was very interesting. How they say it hit the lawn and then the wall, no dirt trail, the only plane pieces you could pick up, one circular hole. I liked the part about how the fbi took the footage of the nearby buildings.
The WTC is more trickier with some of the things they are trying to prove. but come on, they really expect people to beileve that frame and steal went down from the the fire? thats BS. jet fuel? that burns up instantly. Building number 7? thats the biggest joke of all. That one was obviously demolished.
Ill admit there are a lot of things in that video that incline me to beileve even more that there was faull play going on.
Some things you can argue about all day but there really are parts where common sense just kicks in and its like wow wtf?
Jet fuel doesn't burn instantly and burns at something like 800 degrees. Steel loses its stability at around there and becomes heavily mallueble.
quote:
Plane crash, 1 hole, no wing marks, NO debris, and then workers come out to pick up tiny pieces of metal big enough to fit in your pocket.
Not true. Photos are all over the internet of huge pieces.
Want to know the largest source of information that contributed to Loose Change? A F ****ing P, an anti-zionist biweekly magazine.
What do I think happened? Honestly, I THINK AMERICA PERPETRATED 9/11 AND IT WAS ALL PIECED TOGETHER USING FREELY AVAILABLE STOCK FOOTAGE. But seriously, I believe that 9/11 is interlinked with the U.S.' relationship with Israel. Extremeist-Muslims and even moderate Muslims are pissed off, angry people who have said time and time again that their desire is to push Israel into the ocean. What better way to **** with Israel's economy then to damage the infastructure of our economy and politics?
Of course, this was a ****ing godsend for the U.S. and Israel because we now can move in on middle eastern oil simulatenously quelling the masses under some "Patriot Act". I believe the U.S. knew about a threat but saw it as an empty one.
Any reasonable person with any sort of knowledge about the media can reason that the 9/11 attacks were a horrible atrocity committed by religous extremists but I believe that the stripping of the rights of millions of people is a far bigger one. Look at what 9/11 did to us. The U.S. economy is in the worst shape it has been in since the 1970s, "freedom" means you can do whatever you want unless it could possibly be seen as suspicious then your life is ruined.
I'm done rambling.
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 4/29/2008 2:35:34 AM
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David1991
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yea i saw it, its really believeable but of course its going to be.
btw my teacher is retarded and keeps saying "the only reason it happened is because we didnt translate an arab document saying it was going to happen" (or some language like that).
so what can i say to prove her wrong? i dont know all that much about it but she really pisses me off sometimes with her dumbass comments about nutrition while she's been fat since i've known her.
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 4/29/2008 7:49:00 AM
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chrisshepherd
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I wrote this a long time ago, debunking most of loose change. Dae Light was the dude believing this then so some of it may be geared a little towards him but the facts reamin. Watch loose change and the read what I found, sitting in my room. It took me about 4 hours but I pretty much shot loose change to the ground.
Wow where do I start? First you’re not from America. Second you’re from Europe. Third from MY experience Europe doesn't really like America and whatever opportunity it has to make it look bad they will. Forth everyone of these videos has subtitles in other languages, the makers of the "documentary" are not really aiming their message at Americans, America is the world most hated country so this idiot is helping project America in a negative light he probably is a Muslim extremist. Fifth I had some time to kill and I broke down the video logically and did a very small amount of research . . .here's what I got.
1963
in reading these documents 1.those options are horrible and should not have been suggested. However at the time they may have been thought as justifiable because of the pressure Castro was placing on other countries at the time. 2.it states in the doc itself that those were no more than ideas for something the might do. 3.they were rejected.
1984
NASA studied how fuel would act in a plane crash. Did London ever do a study to find out how a disruption on its underground rail systems would affect everything? If they didn't that should be considered irresponsible.
1997
What a 13-year layoff in major world changing planning and research? I didn't think so either. But his big deal for 1997 was a Fema book cover. Yeah. So. I don’t understand the big deal. Oh wait. You’re not from America. So the 1993 WTC bombings wouldn't ring a bell. As they wouldn't ring a bell to many other people these videos are actually aimed at.
So the worst terrorist act the US has had since 1941 managed to make the cover of a pamphlet on terrorism, you know your right . . . it all makes sense now . . .wtf?
Oh and for the record this happened in 1997 BUSH was not in office. The first WTC bombings happened in 1993 Clinton was in office then. Blame Clinton. But wait its insane to blame either one. You cant just say bush and his buddies because even the president the rest of the world loved was pres at the time most of this crap took place.
1998
The government flew an unmanned aircraft at 33,000 feet. So. I really fail to see any correlation between this and 9/11. The planes that hit the WTC were clearly manned.
What’s his point? This is weak.
2000
The department of justice used the same picture that fema used on its own pamphlet. Again . . .1941 . . .1993 . . .only terror attacks. Why would anyone tell the entire world what they were planning to do on the cover of a pamphlet if they were trying to "pull the the wool over our eyes”?!?! Another WTF moment brought to you by poor film makers Inc. a Michael Moore company
2000
So a "neo conservative" board found that Americas defense against attacks was weak . . . wow startling. I mean with a board that probably meet for hours if not days to tell you something that any idiot with a shot gun could have told you (if that idiot would have really thought about it) your right these amazingly intelligent men planned out this incredibly detailed attack on their own country in a the times that they meet. It's all making sense now.
Another WTF momn . . .never mind you get it.
2000
MASCAL. His big deal with MASCAL was that they staged an airborne attack on the pentagon. Go figure. Planning for something that might happen. That’s like building a 3 bedroom house directly after getting married. we might have kids one day lets planned for it. it sounds like they should have been planning how to stop it (condoms if you will) instead. But whatever the case this does not prove they planned it. Oh I almost for got the big one. Go to wiki and search for MASCAL you'll see the picture. It shows a plane in the massive courtyard. The plane hit the building . . . "well maybe it meant to hit the courtyard but missed" you might ask. Well that could be but the tie in this guy was making with retired Air Force official Charles Burlingame it would not have been possible. The video made it sound like sir Charles flew the plane himself into the building. Well I'll ask you this, if a man who has been landing jets on aircraft carriers for over half his life were piloting this plane, don’t you think he would have hit the target that was (according to this clown) discussed in 2000? I did too.
Oh and NORAD Suggested a demo in which a plane actually hits the pentagon. that was shot down as unrealistic. So supposedly the government is planning these things out but when it comes to what actually happened the government never imagined.
NO DATE GIVEN
Ashcroft decided to take chartered flights rather than fly first class. Yeah so. he was in a position where he could fly privately wouldn't you? But the reason given for him no longer using public airways was safety. Since the maker of this film failed to give a date as to when Mr. Ashcroft stopped flying amongst the public for "security" reasons, you have to look at his record of service. from 2001 to 2005. that’s it not before not after. And since there was no date offered couldn't this guy could just have taken something that happened on oh say September 29, 2001 and make it look like it belonged there. very Michael Moore, nice. IDK when it happened but wouldn't you fly on a private jet and when asked why you are spending tax money on say "security." I know would.
Again another point with out a date.
A Newsweek report stated that Government officials canceled their flights for the next morning. Point one- Was a summit canceled? Or a meeting canceled. Well IDK because I didn't read the article but that could have been the reason they all canceled their flights. IDK if those were the reasons they canceled their flights where's my proof? Point 2- (the good one) what is "the next morning"? What the morning of September 12? IDK.
July 4th
I looked it up there isn't any actual proof from a creditable source that Osama was at the hospital. and it has never been confirmed that a CIA agent was there.
July 24th
True Larry Silverstien owned the ground the towers were on he didn't own the buildings. He won a bidding war on a 99-year lease. So insurance on a building he was in possession of? Really I wouldn't expect that from a very successful land and real estate developer . . . wiki it.
September 6th
American airline stock did something funny. They were preparing them to fall sharply. well if I remember correctly, which I do. gas pricing were the highest i had ever seen them and it takes fuel to fly a plane. makes sense that you know someone might realize stock prices could drop. Especially those experts that write all of those columns like everyday.
NO DATE GIVEN
Bomb sniffing dogs and 12-hour guard shifts were stopped. But without dates given it could have happened in say 1995?
9/11
The military was training that morning leaving only a few planes do "defend the country." Defend from what? we weren't in a war there weren't any well known threats but yeah it amazed me too that our military trained on the morning of 9/11 astounding. even if there had been 100 jets in and around NYC that morning they would have hit anyways, what other options would the jets have had? Blow up a jet over NYC? Good plan. Lets kill people over a stretch of like 10 miles instead of seeing what their motives are. They didn't know what the planes were going to do so they would have tried to escort them and it probably wouldn't have worked.
Well that’s all I got. Basically this movie was worthless. it was even more illogical than F911. Please people think about what your watching before you declare these "facts" as actual facts.
Oh and Dae please show me where the insurance scam and the government tie into each other. did this guy hire the government to blow up his building in 1984? did they say hey how about we do it in say 26 years give or take? I don’t think so. Yeah so Osama just said he did it. Just like the London train bombings were claimed by some terrorist group. So how long did it take . . .
· Ken Livingstone - Chair
· Nicky Gavron AM - Spatial development and strategic planning
· Toby Harris – Policing and Community Safety (Former Assembly Member and Chair of MPA)
· Graham Tope AM - Human rights and equalities
· Val Shawcross AM - Fire and Emergency Planning Authority (LFEPA)
· Judith Mayhew - City and business
· Glenda Jackson MP - Homelessness
· Honor Chapman CBE - London Development Agency
· Lee Jasper - Race relations
· Diane Abbott MP - Women and equality
· Richard Stone - Community partnerships
· Caroline Gooding - Disability rights
· Victor Anderson - Environment (Former Assembly Member)
· Jennette Arnold AM - Culture
· Richard Rogers - Urban strategy
· Sue Atkinson - Health issues
· Rod Robertson - Trade union issues
· Lynne Featherstone - Liberal Democrat representative (Former Assembly Member)
· Graeme Matthews - Older people
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 4/29/2008 7:58:55 AM
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_Virtuoso_
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I have read quite a lot into the 9/11 incidents, and I am on the conspiracy bandwagon. Everything that happened on that day was organised by the goverment imo.
Also I'm not going to bother arguing every point, but just a quick thing that DA mentioned, although steel may melt at that temperature, as the WTC collapses you can see a certain type of smoke and dust matter being expelled which is only seen when demolition charges are used.
< Message edited by _Virtuoso_ -- 4/29/2008 8:04:54 AM >
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 4/29/2008 8:33:24 AM
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Yet
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I think MANY of you are missing the most important part of this.
How many people would it take to pull this type of thing off?
At LEAST 100, if not into the thousands. Do you really believe that 100 people would be able to keep this quiet?
No.
Also, the maker of this video, I forget his name, but he donates to a dummy corporation that funds Al-Quedia.
So this guy is in essence, a terrorist, why wouldn't he want to pit us against our government?
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 4/29/2008 8:41:53 AM
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David1991
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i'll have to read up on this when i have some free time. well actually im doing nothing now. but it seems like an interesting topic. when i first saw the video it seemed so convincing but i guess thats the whole point. they have a good debate between the makers of the movie and people debunking it on some show but they didnt get to finish
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 4/29/2008 9:10:49 AM
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_Virtuoso_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chrisshepherd
Steel weakens alot before it melts. And how do you know about this certain type of smoke and dust?
I've spent hours studding WTC anc other high rise buildings. Both how they are built and how they would burn. Everything that the towers did makes sense. The outside walls were load barring. Part of those walls were destroyed making the stress that much greater on the rest of the walls weakening them greatly. That and with the inside supports being moved to the center of the building, to allow for more uninteruppted office space caused it to be a fairly weak. It makes sense the way that the buildings pancaked.
There were supports on the outside and inside of it leaving the floors free range to fall with no supports stopping or slowing them. Therefore falling straight down makes sense.
If both jets had hit the empire state building, it probably wouldn't have fallen. It was built using supports and pillars spaced evenly throughout the building. Meaning that the supports are going to be in the way on every floor but its stronger. The outside walls have no load. The building does not rely on the outside to support it like WTC did. If both planes hit the building and it did somehow fall, it would not pancake as there are so many pillars it would topple over. But because the WTC was built without these pillars it made it prone to the type of pancake collapse that happened.
if you just do some research about the way the buildings are built then you'll discover that everything makes sense without the government conspiracy.
The way it collapsed, exploding from top to bottom in layers, isn't how it would have naturally collpased, and about the demolition charges, thats because some of the engineers who designed and constructed the WTC have looked into it and they have pointed out on the videos which bursts of smoke are from charges exploding, they have also stated that there was no way those steel beams could have collapsed or melted, but that if they could have melted the tower wouldn't have collpased in the way it did. Just me, but I would rather believe the engineers who designed and built the WTC and have been in construction for over 30 years, then a goverment official who covers up half the sh*t that happens in the US. You can find the videos on the net.
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 4/29/2008 10:00:52 AM
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DA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _Virtuoso_
quote:
ORIGINAL: chrisshepherd
Steel weakens alot before it melts. And how do you know about this certain type of smoke and dust?
I've spent hours studding WTC anc other high rise buildings. Both how they are built and how they would burn. Everything that the towers did makes sense. The outside walls were load barring. Part of those walls were destroyed making the stress that much greater on the rest of the walls weakening them greatly. That and with the inside supports being moved to the center of the building, to allow for more uninteruppted office space caused it to be a fairly weak. It makes sense the way that the buildings pancaked.
There were supports on the outside and inside of it leaving the floors free range to fall with no supports stopping or slowing them. Therefore falling straight down makes sense.
If both jets had hit the empire state building, it probably wouldn't have fallen. It was built using supports and pillars spaced evenly throughout the building. Meaning that the supports are going to be in the way on every floor but its stronger. The outside walls have no load. The building does not rely on the outside to support it like WTC did. If both planes hit the building and it did somehow fall, it would not pancake as there are so many pillars it would topple over. But because the WTC was built without these pillars it made it prone to the type of pancake collapse that happened.
if you just do some research about the way the buildings are built then you'll discover that everything makes sense without the government conspiracy.
The way it collapsed, exploding from top to bottom in layers, isn't how it would have naturally collpased, and about the demolition charges, thats because some of the engineers who designed and constructed the WTC have looked into it and they have pointed out on the videos which bursts of smoke are from charges exploding, they have also stated that there was no way those steel beams could have collapsed or melted, but that if they could have melted the tower wouldn't have collpased in the way it did. Just me, but I would rather believe the engineers who designed and built the WTC and have been in construction for over 30 years, then a goverment official who covers up half the sh*t that happens in the US. You can find the videos on the net.
That's of course disregarding the thousands of onlookers who saw no such thing.
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 4/29/2008 10:17:31 AM
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chrisshepherd
Posts: 1612
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From: North Vernon, IN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _Virtuoso_
quote:
ORIGINAL: chrisshepherd
Steel weakens alot before it melts. And how do you know about this certain type of smoke and dust?
I've spent hours studding WTC anc other high rise buildings. Both how they are built and how they would burn. Everything that the towers did makes sense. The outside walls were load barring. Part of those walls were destroyed making the stress that much greater on the rest of the walls weakening them greatly. That and with the inside supports being moved to the center of the building, to allow for more uninteruppted office space caused it to be a fairly weak. It makes sense the way that the buildings pancaked.
There were supports on the outside and inside of it leaving the floors free range to fall with no supports stopping or slowing them. Therefore falling straight down makes sense.
If both jets had hit the empire state building, it probably wouldn't have fallen. It was built using supports and pillars spaced evenly throughout the building. Meaning that the supports are going to be in the way on every floor but its stronger. The outside walls have no load. The building does not rely on the outside to support it like WTC did. If both planes hit the building and it did somehow fall, it would not pancake as there are so many pillars it would topple over. But because the WTC was built without these pillars it made it prone to the type of pancake collapse that happened.
if you just do some research about the way the buildings are built then you'll discover that everything makes sense without the government conspiracy.
The way it collapsed, exploding from top to bottom in layers, isn't how it would have naturally collpased, and about the demolition charges, thats because some of the engineers who designed and constructed the WTC have looked into it and they have pointed out on the videos which bursts of smoke are from charges exploding, they have also stated that there was no way those steel beams could have collapsed or melted, but that if they could have melted the tower wouldn't have collpased in the way it did. Just me, but I would rather believe the engineers who designed and built the WTC and have been in construction for over 30 years, then a goverment official who covers up half the sh*t that happens in the US. You can find the videos on the net.
Ok show me where these mystery engineers have said that. Because I watched a Nova interview with the architect saying exactly what I said.
When the outside supports started to fail the weakened steel beams that made up each floor started to give way also. And because there was nothing to impede their fall the floors pancaked. The floors connected the outside supports to the inside supports and if one failed the other was sure to as well. In any traditionally built high rise building, you're right charges would have had to be used to get that effect. but because of the design, which saved money, saved weight, and created extra office space, also made it inherently weak to something of that size.
Thats not a cover up thats architecture. its how it was built. its black and white. you're argument is good if it were the Empire state building, but the towers were built 100% different.
< Message edited by chrisshepherd -- 4/29/2008 10:26:33 AM >
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 4/29/2008 10:24:59 AM
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_Virtuoso_
Posts: 1486
Joined: 10/4/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DA
That's of course disregarding the thousands of onlookers who saw no such thing.
Apart from the fact that unless you are a professional you wouldn't notice it without it being pointed out to you. Watch the videos and you will see.
_____________________________
The Iron never lies to you. You can walk outside and listen to all kinds of talk, get told that you're a god or a total bastard. The Iron will always kick you the real deal. The Iron is the great referance point, the all-knowing perspective giver. Always there like a beacon in the pitch black. I have found the Iron to be my greatest friend. It never freaks out on me. Never runs. Friends may come and go. But two hundred pounds is always two hundred pounds.
(in reply to DA)
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