Lean Body Sculpting Q for experienced!

Hi, I'm new to the board, and here are questions for the more experienced/professional types.
 
I'm female; 33; 5'6"; 107lbs/48kg; been strength training about four years, and much more seriously in the previous 7 months; prior to that mostly aerobic activity, including long distance running.  My main interests are holistic nutrition (food, vitamins and supplements), weight and fat loss, lean body sculpting, anti-aging, disease prevention, and I love researching and collecting clinical studies in all these areas.  I should have my personal trainer certification by the end of April, and I will go on to become a Certified Nutrionist.
 
My physical goal is a sculpted lean body.  Obviously by my stats, I'm not too far off my mark, but here's the situation:  my boyfriend who is the epitomy of a sculpted lean body persuaded me to increase the intensity (ie, double the weights, quadruple the sets) of my workouts dramatically about seven months ago.  After three months, my body was looking great and I had lost 15 pounds and put on some definition, too!  I have pretty much continued the same type of nutrition (food intake and supplements) and strength training program, but now I feel like my arms and legs are just too big!  I'm currently doing high-rep (4 to 5 sets of 12 reps) relatively heavy (15lbs per arm) free weights for bi's (as a basic example).  We are very into proper form and slow movement.
 
For legs, I originally focused on weighted far-spread lunges in order to tone my buttocks and thighs, which worked great!  But now my quads are looking bulky for a female, to me.  So more recently I only do the lunges once a week, and now I'm doing more hamstring- and buttock-specific machines with relatively lower weights and lots more reps (only one or two sets) until it burns so bad, I cannot continue (aka "to exhaust").
 
I feel really discouraged because on one hand I'm happy with all the definition I have, but on the other hand, everything is looking a bit bulky. 
 
Does anyone have suggestions for "slimming" while maintaining the "cuts?"  I also wonder a bit if I'm eating too much protein, and I honestly could not say for sure an amount, but my diet is focused on lots of lean protein (egg whites, lean meats, fish), low- to no-fat dairy for calcium, only complex carbs (and not much), and as much monounsaturated fat as I can fit in with all this (I mostly just use safflower oil to cook and eat avocados and almonds almost daily).  We usually fit in a protein shake just after our workouts.  I was religiously strength training every other day, but now I'm taking two days off in between...but does that actually just add to the bulk with the increase in recovery time?  Should I be doing shorter workouts every day for my goal?  Also, my current strength training program is about 1.5 to 2 hours solid with few breaks, but I do begin with larger muscle groups and work down, unless I'm in a "funk," then I do more like a circuit training type routine to keep myself interested, but I still get all the same things done.  I usually work most body parts at every workout, whereas my boyfriend only works one to two body parts like every 1.5 weeks.
 
I don't my body fat level, but I don't think that is the issue.  I know some will probably tell me to do more cardio, and if that's the fact, then I will take that advice, but my personal experience has always been that cardio makes me more hungry so I eat more and gain weight!
 
Please let me know if there are more details necessary for a good assesment.  Thank you in advance for any assistance!  I really appreciate it!
 
~AnaMaria

Yes indeed, AnaMaria... am I glad you PM'd me   First off, welcome to DBB.com, I can tell you're going to be a valuable asset to this community.  It's obvious you put a lot of thought into your fitness endeavors, and your commitment to the lifestyle is exemplary -to say the least for this cogent, detailed post

Don't be surprised if your predicament (as you describe it) inspires a few smoldering, jealous stares from your fellow athletes here, LOL.  You've stumbled upon a delightful confluence of bodybuilding phenomena that (although they may not serve your goals perfectly) are producing some rather enviable results.

Your intuition serves you well.  In a nutshell, the program and diet you describe are indeed going to result in some mass gains.  You've described -almost to the letter- what I've been doing myself for the past six months.  The emphasis on protein, the focus on good fats, the 4 to 5 set, 12-15 rep, moderately heavy weight workouts, and the increased recovery time between workouts are going to yield exactly the results you described.  And yes, doing a lot of cardio will put an appetite on you with a vengeance.

Unfortunately, I dont see how you can sustain the kind of moderate to high intensity workout that you describe, and a high protein diet, and not continue to add bulk.  1.5 to 2 hours of resistance training with the rep ranges and weights you describe are about as aggressive an anabolic response as one can elicit before cortisol kicks in and you start going catabolic.  If it makes you feel any better, I might start emmulating your program

I think the key for you, with your stated goal of staying "toned", but not bulky, is to come to peace with the fact that no single workout methodology has to be a permanent feature of your fitness lifestyle.  If the resistance training is giving you too much muscle, shift your focus to cardio with a slightly lower caloric intake (not cutting levels, mind you -you still want to be in a slight surplus at this point).  If you start to feel like you're giving back too much of the muscle definition, switch back to free-weights.  You are in a very fortunate position, that you can selectively apply whichever methodology yields the results you want, without having to commit yourself slavishly to one or the other for long periods.

And don't worry too much about packing on a little muscle -if you're at all like me, it is a royal pain in the glutes just trying to hold onto it

My home away from DBB

Hi veggeep,
 
Thank you very much for your detailed and thoughful response.  I have a few more questions for you, if you don't mind (and anyone else is welcome to tune in and offer more advice here!  Hint, hint!!)...
 
1.  Do you think at this point it would benefit me to do my strength training more often (every day?) with less recovery time?
 
2.  Would it benefit me to go with lighter weights for many more reps?  I know this is a controversial issue among strength training elitists, but I'm asking your personal opinion.
 
3.  Do you think it might help to simply cut back on protein, but continue with good fats and good carbs? (I personally find the good fats to be very satiating so I don't think cutting those would help keep my weight at a relatively low level, which is also part of my goal).
 
4.  Would you explain this further?  shift your focus to cardio with a slightly lower caloric intake (not cutting levels, mind you -you still want to be in a slight surplus at this point).  Specifically, cardio tends to make me more hungry so I'm not sure about a focus there while at the same time reducing calorie intake...and...what does it mean "to be in a slight surplus at this point?" 
 
Again, I really appreciate your input here, and please feel free to point anyone else here to this thread who might be of help.  I PM'd a couple females, but have not heard back, and it is a little difficult by usernames to decipher males from females.  
 
Thank you again! 

1.  "More often" would cut down the strictly anabolic response, and

2.  yes, lighter weight would also help push those workouts into cardio territory.  But I don't think you have to do an insane amount of reps (like going for an extreme burn and exhaustion on the majority of your exercises) to accomplish that.  I'm going to say keep the reps below 20 but no less than 12 per set. 

By the way, I'm basing this on what I've observed myself doing that impedes my bulking ambitions -I'm probably not the best person to be giving advice on how not to bulk, LOL

I'm assuming you really like strength training more than straight-up treadmilling or stair-mastering   In that respect, you don't have to give up the strength training to stem the bulking reaction (besides, I'd never advise anyone to give up strength training, regardless of their goals -it's way too flexible to be considered a specialized activity).  If you want to retain the muscle tone and definition without adding much more bulk, consider dropping the compound, holistic exercises like squats, deads, and lunges from your standard menu.  Incorporate them every once in a while, but use them sparingly.  My leg workouts these days have consisted entirely of squats, deads, lunges, and back extensions, and they are making my butt huge, LOL.  If you want to mitigate that effect, you can trade up lunges for leg extensions with light weight for a month.  (Take a picture folks, it's not often I condone isolation movements in place of compounds)

3.  The only way protein consumption factors into whether you gain a lot of bulk is when you aren't getting enough.  I'm guessing that your protein consumption itself isn't the cause of your muscle gains -the workout type, duration, and intensity is.  The protein enables the muscle gain, but does not cause it.  Cutting back on the protein will cause your body to start catabolizing its own, and that's not good.  So no.  Don't change your protein consumption, or your fat intake -in fact, don't change anything about the caloric makeup of your diet.  Just consider balancing your total caloric intake vs. expenditure a little closre to maintenance levels...

4.  ...by which I mean you should be getting more than maintenance, but not so much that you are downing the 500-1000 extra calories a day that is typical of a mass-building program.  If you shift to a heavily cardio-focused workout, you will be a lot hungrier than you would on a moderate-intensity strength training regimen, but since you're focusing more on endurance-type exercises, the "slight surplus" is being burned off instead of stored (or used to build muscle).  I'm a firm believer in strength training's ability to use available calories for building mass, but if you aren't causing a strong enough anabolic growth stimulous (and you appear to be, from what you've said) with your workouts, it doesn't matter how many calories you consume, you're not going to bulk.  If you aren't gaining muscle with a caloric surplus, then one of two things must happen, and they are each contingent on the quality of your workouts: a) the surplus will be stored as fat because your workouts are neither anabolic enough, nor aerobic enough to burn it off, or b) the surplus will be burned off because your workouts are more aerobic than anabolic.

In your case, (and this is just the opine-I-own) I think you're bulking because your workouts are too anabolic in nature, and not aerobic enough.  A lot of people automatically attach caloric deficit dietary wisdom to "cardio" style workouts, because that is necessary to lose body fat.  My point is, aerobic activity (even light "toning" freeweight workouts) are not synonymous with low-calorie dieting.  Keep your calories above maintenance levels, and keep your workouts out of the anabolic zone, and you won't get bulky.

My home away from DBB

DUDE!
Thank you so much for all these details and time you have spent here!!!  It's a great help to me.  I've already begun everything we've discussed...and the only unfortunate part is the waiting (Tom Petty: "The waiting is hardest part!")...now I have to not check everything every day (ha...every hour is more like it!), but give it 6 weeks to 3 months to see how this is working.  I'm so impatient!  But seriously, I kinda' feel better already...the first couple workouts with lower weights drove me absolutely insane since I'm at a gym and usually get popping eyes from other women when they see what I'm doing...kinda' felt defeated at first, but that's silly, I know, and now my ego is under control and I'm enjoying the change of pace.  I think you hit the nail on the head when you first said "no single workout methodology has to be a permanent feature of your fitness lifestyle."  That always gets tricky for me since I like ROUTINE, but I took it to heart and we'll see how it goes from here.  Ah, such is life, no?  Thank you again!!!

Very interesting reading- I have just one suggestion to add.
You mentioned you really didn't know the amounts of protein, etc. that you're consuming- A very good idea would be to pay more attention to that sort of thing, as I'm sure you're aware that nutrition plays a huge part in any sort of progress you're looking for. Check out Fitday.com, you can set up a journal there of what you eat everyday, and they tell you how many calories you're getting, and where they're coming from- Protein, fat, carbs. I love the place, plenty of people here use it, and that info's worth a lot- Sounds like you could definitely benefit from it. Perhaps if you post what Fitday tells you about your intake here, you might get even more help.

Hi cpl,
 
Thanks for the tip!  I will definitely check out the site you mentioned.
 
As far as the exact amounts go, the main reason I don't know is that I eat pretty much all day...5 almonds here, 1/4 avocado there, slice of lean white meat here, small piece of salmon with barley there, a light protein shake with flax seeds here, an egg white with salsa and low-fat cottage cheese there...you get the idea...it's almost impossible to keep up with it all, unless I devote a great deal of energy to measuring every single intake.  If anything, my guess is that I'm not actually consuming a "healthy recommended" amount of calories for my expenditure, but realizing that, I try to make up by at least putting in little bits all day long (and of course supplements and vitamins).  My goal is to stay at a low weight while keeping definition.  Still, given all this, I kinda' don't understand why my arms and legs are looking a bit bulky, so I am going to take your suggestion and try to keep up better with what I'm eating...because my "guestimate" could be wrong!  If so, I really need to know that! So thanks again!
 

OK...I'M IN SHOCK!!!  I tried to remember my consumption from yesterday, plugged it all in, and I'm totally amazed at the results:

Calories Eaten Today

source     grams     cals     %total

Total:                   1981 

Fat:         104         933       48%
Sat:         14         130          7%
Poly:        33         293         15%
Mono:      48         435         22%

Carbs:       178       613        32%
Fiber:         25          0          0%

Protein:      98        391        20%

Alcohol:       0          0           0%

And you know, I honestly thought I was shooting pretty close to 50% protein, 30% good fats, and only 20% complex carbs!  And I had NO idea I was intaking that many calories on a day like that!  Granted, I had a pretty good workout yesterday so I was a bit more hungry than usual, I'm still so amazed at the percentage of my fat intake!!!  Here I've been trying so hard to eat mostly protein and good fats, but it looks like I've gone overboard on the good fats and is that enough on the protein?  Well, I'd LOVE to hear from you about this now that we see this.  I am simply amazed!  And would these ratios lean towards bulking?  Jeez, I guess I can stop spending so many buckaroos on the avos!!!  Thanks so much for your input!

No, the ratios wouldn't lean towards bulking. You'd need a lot more protein for that, and possibly more calories- Have you calculated how many calories you'd need to lose fat and/or bulk up yet? If not, check out the nutrition forum, there should be a post near the top called something like "Calculate expenditure." There's all sorts of info in there on how to find out what your goals should be when it comes to caloric intake.
 

my 2 cents on the slimming, thigh thinner work is best done with no weight or very little, very high reps and circuit style training.  Also your changes to isolated work is a great way to detract from the quads.
You may also be thinking your quads are too big if your shoulders are too small............not sure, haven not seen photos but if you are looking at the overall in a mirror, this is an illusion that may be fooling you but just a suggestion, I could be way off as I have not seen you myself.
I would also focus on cardio style work.
Linda

Come Visit my websites! www.figureteam.com www.lindacusmano.com www.bodyrushpersonaltraining.com

Hi cpl,
 
Well, once again, you've given me great information!  So I need to reduce my caloric intake slightly (although I wish I knew for sure my fat percentage...but as I understand it, the only accurate method is the dunk in water method...?  And where on earth could that be done?).  It also reinforced that I can still increase my protein intake, so this is all just super helpful!  I'm excited about it because I would love to eat more protein and cut back on the fats...because I can actually eat more food and still keep the calories lower!  Now if I can just kick myself in the buttinsky to keep up with all my intake...I sound lazy, but I'm usually over-obsessed with details so I just have to focus some energy in this direction.  Thank you again very much!!!!

Hi Italianangel,
 
I really appreciate your input here!  After reading your post, the first thing I did was find a pic from Dec that I liked, then I tried to imitate it in a current self-pic (the plan was to send them to you personally as I don't care for the idea of posting pics on this board, to be honest)...so here's what happened:  I got both pics in PhotoShop so I could put them next to each other in one and the same sizes...what did I see before my eyes?  It actually made me see this is a bout of body dysmorphia (sp?) - there is hardly any change, and if anything I look more cut now.
 
Still, I am sprucing up my workouts with smaller weights (we're talking 10lbs on the bi's instead of 15) and higher reps (like only 2 sets of 35 reps instead of 4 sets of 12).  I started this for the first time on Saturday with my legs and buttocks, and I was actually more sore than EVER before with heavy weights!  That was surprising to me - any idea why that would be?  We're talking a difference between BEFORE:  70lbs/5 sets/10 reps versus NOW:  45lbs/3 sets/12 reps on forward lunges, BEFORE: adding 67lbs to the angled leg press/5 sets of 10 reps versus NOW:  no weight added/3 sets/20 reps, and BEFORE:  35lbs/4 sets/12 reps on leg curls versus NOW:  15lbs/3 sets/15 reps.  It all feels really easy although I'm breathing faster and sweating more, and these are just examples (I do several other machines for legs), plus I've added in jogging for about 15 minutes at the end.
 
I still wonder if I should allow more or less recovery time considering my goal to stay on the lean side while defined...?  It seems to me from what I've read that the longer the recovery (up to 3 or 4 days), the more growth (ie, bulk).  Is this true in your experience?  Do you think I should be working out every day and just avoid the same parts, or just do a full-on circuit-type workout every day, or is it okay to allow enough recovery time that I'm not sore when I workout?
 
The only other thing is my backside, for lack of better wording...when I started strength training harder, I had a "flat" one; now it's round and firm, and that's all fine and dandy, but I don't want it to extend any further, and there's still this bit of slightly flabby area (which apparently only I can see since my boyfriend denies it and he's pretty harsh usually) just below, so we're talking upper thighs on the outside of the back a bit below the hips.  I thought I was working this area with the seated hip abductions and adductions and the hip extention machine, along with all the leg work, but is there some secret exercise specifically for this area?  And what is your take on plyometrics?  It seems kinda' rough on the joints to me, but I'm willing to try just about anything!
 
Thank you again so very much for your input!!!