Ketogenic diet

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Ketogenic diet - Friday, July 31, 2009 8:45 PM ( #1 )
hey dan what are your thoughts on a ketogenic kiet (no carbs)  but w/ carb refeeds for 12-36 hours once a week?
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danmirage

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Re:Ketogenic diet - Saturday, August 01, 2009 12:50 PM ( #2 )
Keep in mind that NO clinical or other classical ketogenic diet has NO carbohydrates.  Typically there will be a reduction in carbs and carbs will come mostly from vegetables and some fruits.  (One classical mix is 60% fat, 30% protein and 10% carbohydrate)

Remember, vegetables help to buffer acid in the body as well as provide essential nutrients necessary for the body to optimally carry out processes such as fat burning!

There will, no doubt, be a lot of comments on this, so I will tell you my perspective primarily from a physiological point of view.

I assume you intend this as a way to lose stored body fat?
This diet was originally designed to help treat seizures.

First, you have to understand a little of the role of carbs in the body...they are essential for brain and nervous tissue function and they are an essential part of the energy cycles that result in optimal fat burning.

Next, a tiny bit of why this is called a ketogenic diet.  The absence of carbs makes it  necessity to turn dietary and muscle proteins and fats into usable energy.  It is essential that the body have carbs available at all times for the above mentioned systems. 

These carbs are therefor supplied by proteins and fats.  The conversion of proteins to energy generates ammonia which is toxic to the body and which must be converted to urea and excreted, requiring excretion of a large amount of water during periods of high protein turnover often resulting in the body not being properly hydrated.  The conversion of fats to energy results in various ketone bodies which are also not optimal as they result in the body becoming more acidic.  Some of these ketone bodies can be utilized for energy.

Keep in mind, any time the body is significantly more acidic, it does not function optimally.  Additionally, any time the body is not properly hydrated, it does not function optimally...and it does not handle acid conditions well because the water is part of the buffer system of the body.  So, you can see how these can have a combining that is not optimal.

The main appeal to the low carb diets commercially has always been the gimmick of fast weight loss from the depletion of water, resulting from reduced carbohydrate intake.  However, this reduction of total body water also has a crippling effect on optimal fat burning.

So, to remove carbs completely would not be a wise practice.

Down  below 10-20%...
Turner Z and Kossoff EH in The Ketogenic and Atkins Diets: Recipes for Seizure Control, published in Practical Gastroenterology. 2006. 29(6).  Noted side effects as:
constipation, lack of appropriate weight gain, low-grade acidosis, and hypoglycaemia if there is an initial fast. Cholesterol may increase by around 30%

It has also been noted that 5% of those on this level ketogenic diet develop kidney stones.  Keep in mind the significance of this, as 0.0002% of the general population develops kidney stones.

Now, if you take a moderate approach, such as 20% carbs with a refeed day, you are more likely to avoid some of these issues.

None-the-less, there are clinical issues which may arise when you follow these types of diets, so if you are not sure you are in perfect health, check with your doctor!

I recommend a less severe approach in general.

That being to start at a baseline of carb/protein/fat intake (25% protein, 50% carbs, 25% fat or something) and get the body building muscle.  It takes time for the body to develop the optimal hormonal/chemical environment for muscle gain.

Then, introduce some progressive HIIT training and work to get the body tapping fat stores without costing muscle.   Again, it takes time for the body to develop the optimal hormonal/chemical environment for this as well.

Then, I would start to gradually modulate the nutrient ratios to maximize the fat loss.

Keep in mind that tracking caliper-measurement-based body composition and only making changes when the desired change slows or stops is the way to maximize the results...not making drastic changes.  Drastic changes mean more rapid adaptation to the change and less result before the adaptation state occurs.

So, starting with this example of baseline...
25% protein, 50% carbs, 25% fat


Gradually Adjust ratios to accelerate fat loss in this direction:
35-40% protein, 40% carbs, 20-25% fat


Finally, Gradually Adjust ratios to maximize fat loss in this direction:
50% protein, 20-30% carbs, 20-30% fats

Ketosis will occur in this situation as well, however from a health standpoint, I feel it is more sensitive to the individual body's needs and responses.  Remember, no single diet will suit everyone because we are all chemically distinct and individual.

In this manner, there is no need for a specific refeed day, though you can take one day a week to be more loose on the diet and eat what you like within reason.


I hope that addressed your question.
<message edited by danmirage on Saturday, August 01, 2009 12:56 PM>
Red PittBull
Re:Ketogenic diet - Saturday, August 01, 2009 2:47 PM ( #3 )
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Marc David

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Re:Ketogenic diet - Monday, August 03, 2009 7:51 PM ( #4 )
Gosh darn kick butt answer Dan.  You are the man.
Marc C. David - NGA CPT
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www.nobullbodybuilding.com
RollingStone

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Re:Ketogenic diet - Tuesday, August 04, 2009 7:59 AM ( #5 )
Nice writeup.  You sure do know your stuff.  But one could argue the negative effects of any type of dieting.  The diet most definatly works and you didnt mention all of the positive points.
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danmirage

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Re:Ketogenic diet - Tuesday, August 04, 2009 8:53 AM ( #6 )
I agree.

Keep in mind I was asked what I thought about a NO CARB approach, not about the benefits... 
 
I would like to say also, if you are burning fat, that is if you are using fatty ACIDS for energy (and you nearly always are), then you are producing the byproducts of fat metabolism.  Some of those are ketone bodies.  So, knowing that, we might recognize that what we are looking for when we strive for optimaizing fat burning, includes a state that results in higher ketone body production.  One can call it a ketogenic diet if it is prefereable.  It is not entirely synonymous, but close enough if everyone does not possess a deep understanding of the physiology, and I meant to point this out.

I prefer to focus on the goal (fat burning and health) and optimizing the results of that goal.  Since ketone body production is not the goal...

In defense of the lack of benefits in my answer, I know that the person asking the question has a good knowledge base and I need not elucideate the benefits of attaining a high level of fat metabolism...but you do make a good point!


<message edited by danmirage on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 8:56 AM>
RollingStone

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Re:Ketogenic diet - Tuesday, August 04, 2009 11:39 AM ( #7 )
Well this kind of brings me to another question and youre probably the best to answer.  Ive been on this diet for a while and im pretty low in body fat.  According to what seems to be the most accurate caliper method im a couple points below 6%.  I want to get to around 5 though and Im wondering what adjustments I could safely make.  Would lowering the carb up to just two meals of around 125g of dextrose powder in water have an adverse effect?  Im already lifting very hard and doing HIIT 2-3 times a week.  I dont know how much farther I can really go.

Maybe it just isnt a good idea to try and lose anymore fat??
working on explosive phase
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Strength and growth come only through continuous effort and struggle.
danmirage

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Re:Ketogenic diet - Tuesday, August 04, 2009 3:50 PM ( #8 )
Well, if you focus on getting most of your carbs from a whole food source (fruits/veggies), then you benefit from slower release and the caloric cost of processing the carbs in addition to the other hidden benefits of real nutrition (liek buffering acids, providing nutrition for enzymes that burn fats, etc!!).  Dextrose powder is pre digested and nurtient poor, and pretty much goes right into the system.

Naturally, we want to know what is possible.  We do this building sport to push boundaries.  I would not say it is the "best," that is, the healthiest thing to go further, however, if your dietary fats are adequate, and your training is optimized...and your nutrition is optimal...then it is the little things that will make the difference.  Keeping in mind that a loss of one pound of fat is a loss of 10% of your total body fat, it may be a bit of a trick to go lower. 

You recognize that the ripped look we get on stage has a lot to do with a combination of factors....
Low bodyfat
Low total body water
High "pump"/vascularity

That said, you can look at your diet and see if there are any food changes you can make that might help you get leaner. 

Are you getting enough water?

Also, your HIIT (and your lifting), are you varying your training still? 

Also, some bouts of posing or slow cardio post workout might change the use of fats, for some it is beneficial.

Naturally, at your level of leanness, there are all sorts of supplement strategies that might give you that tiny edge that someone at a lesser level of leanness would not benefit from.
RollingStone
Re:Ketogenic diet - Tuesday, August 04, 2009 4:44 PM ( #9 )
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