I've been at this for 5 years but I'm still sure I can use some good input

Hey guys,

Alright I just finished a cutting routine, high reps cardio and all that. Now i'm looking to put on a little more mass. I got the diet down now I just want your input on this routine. I got the excercises down and I just want to know if they're good, and what rep ranges you guys would recomend.

Day 1: Legs & Abs
Squats
Leg Press
Leg Ext.
Leg Curls
Calf Raises
Leg Raises
Decline Sit ups
Oblique Crunches

Day 2: Chest & Triceps
Bench Press
Barbell Incline
DB Decline
Decline Flyes
Close Grip Bench
Triceps Ext
Weighted Dips

Day 3: Shoulders & Abs
DB Press
Seated DB Lateral Flyes
Rear Delt Ext.
Shrugs
Leg Raises
Decline Sit ups
Oblique Crunches

Day 4: Back & Bis
Deadlift
Bent over Rows
Wide Grip Pull downs
Close Grip Pull backs
Barbell Curls
Incline Curls
Hammer Curls

I also want to throw in 3 days a week of light cardio such as 1-2 mile run once a week, and interval running twice a week as I need to keep my endurance up for fire fighter acadamy.

Thanks guys

Might help to know some stats:  body type, weight, what's worked in the past.
I'm a bulking ecto and just came off a similar 4 day on/1 rest day split.  It seemed a little much for me.  Now I've started an M/W/F Full body HST program.  I'd rather cut my time in the gym down (I love going but felt I was reaching point of diminishing returns).  I also like the idea of hitting each body part 3x per week instead of only every 6 days.

Eclipse23


Hey guys,

Alright I just finished a cutting routine, high reps cardio and all that. Now i'm looking to put on a little more mass. I got the diet down now I just want your input on this routine. I got the excercises down and I just want to know if they're good, and what rep ranges you guys would recomend.

Day 1: Legs & Abs
Squats
Leg Press
Good Mornings
Weighted Decline Sit ups
Hanging Knee Raises

Day 2: Chest & Triceps
Bench Press
Barbell Incline
Close Grip Bench
Weighted Dips

Day 3: Shoulders & Abs
Standing Overhead Press
Cleans
Rear Delt Ext.
Hanging Leg Raises

Day 4: Back & Bis
Deadlift
Bent over Rows
Weighted Pull Ups
Barbell Curls


I also want to throw in 3 days a week of light cardio such as 1-2 mile run once a week, and interval running twice a week as I need to keep my endurance up for fire fighter acadamy.

Thanks guys

I put in and took out what I would do for possibly better results.

If you are a fire fighter, condition like crazy and weight train extremely heavy.

A "cutting" routine doesn't necessarily mean high reps.

Listen to Perrynaytor.

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

a cutting routine shouldn't mean a high rep routine. keep lifting hard and heavy when u are cutting. high reps with lower weight is not going to tone the muscles like people say it does. there is no such thing as toning muscles.

muscles will have that toned look when ur BF% is low enough. if u stop using heavy weights during ur cut then u will loose strength i guarantee it!

Current: 19, 5'11", 190@7%

bench:305 squat:370(atg) deadlift:475
Goals: 4plate squat, 5plate dead

"obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated"

alright thanks guys, now what would you recomend for the rep ranges??

I'm keen on 8 to 12 for gaining mass, which is my goal.

I like Perry's routine, but trade the leg press for stiff-leg deadlifts, you need 1 quad and 1 hamstring movement per leg day.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

5 years constant? If so you should be huge, or at least have a respectable physique even with bad genetics. If you have been doing 5 years of "proper" training then i'd hate to bring the bad news but i dont think you are going to gain a lot of mass. As far as your routine goes, you should cut out quite a bit way to much volume. I would say aim more towards 4 exercises per day rather than your days which are all 7-8 exercises apiece if i read over it right. Try to keep in the big compound lifts and cut out the isolations when choosing.

Of course a whole lot my advice could be bad if you aren't natural although you didnt state so im assuming you are.

Rep ranges, 5 sets of 4-6 on the big three and all the others 3 sets of 6-8

If you wanna get crazy do 10 sets of 3 on everything and see what that does. Also, get rid of the leg press. The SL Deadlift is a much better idea. Thanks MVP.

thanks again guys, once again i appreciate the input. Well i'm only 20 right now and have been at athletics for quite a bit. however i first started lifting for football and wrestling, so from the age of 15 to 16 i was mainly into getting big and did and was constantly told i look like i'm on steroids. then from 17-19 I was boxing and cutting weight and doing more sport specific work outs in the fitness room (not boxing gym). The past 6 months after I stopped boxing I put on about 10-12 lbs and i do look bigger but I'm sure I can get even bigger. Anyway, this is what I've come to after spending some time doing research today and readings your posts:

Reps are 3 sets, 12 10 8

Day 1: Chest & Tris
Bench press
decline press
cable crossovers
weighted dips
close grip bench

Day 2: Back & Bis
Weighted pull ups
Bent over barbell rows
close grip pull downs
barbell curls
hammer curls

Day 3: Legs
Squats
Romanian Deadlift
Hip abductors
Calf Raises

Alright guys I cut down the amount of excercises and tried to include mainly compound excercises. 

Should I make it 4 sets each though instead of 3 or keep it the way it is?

Thanks

Man, you need to train your shoulders dude.. Put some overhead presses there.

5'8.1"
Age = 20 
started in February 16th 2007: 58kg (127.6lbs)
current : around 79-80kg (173.8lb-176lb)

I guess you missed the bit on working the shoulders.

And 5 sets of 4-6 so you can lift really heavy.

Ye wow i dont know why i left those out. but yeah, i'd add shoulders on the legs day and do Military press, rear delt extensions, front raises, and shrugs. each 3 sets of 12-10-8.

how's that?

I guess that's okay, but I would still do 5 sets of 4-6, but you will do what you want.

Guys, clue me in:  Wouldn't 8 to 12 reps make sense on a bulk to gain size, and then lower (4 to 6) on a cut to keep the poundages up with the reduced energy from reduced calories, to keep you out of the catabolic spiral? 

It doesn't matter JMBS, gaining size is about your diet.

Lets say you do bench, squat, rows 3x5 with weight that is heavy for you, and your in a calorie surplus, you'll most likely add size.

If its in a deficit you probably won't.

Strength routines generally are lower weight because you are using a lot heavier weight. Which is generally done while cutting, because you want to keep your strength.

Red PittBull's Log.

So is the whole 8 to 12 for size, 4 to 6 for strength a bunch of BS?  Does it boil down to bigger=stronger?  In the gym there are plenty of guys less muscled than me who can lift more than me.

No, bigger doesn't mean stronger.

And to what I understand its mostly crap. There might be something in it to the fact that if you do more reps the muscle has more tears in which it can rebuild bigger. But if you do lower reps with heavy weight it should tear just as much.

I'm pretty sure its crap though. Many people have gained 20-30 pounds on SS and its rep scheme is 3X5.

Many have gained a lot on HST which has some things 2x15. It still doesn't matter though its about diet. Working out tears the muscles, diet repairs them.

Thats just my opinion though.

Red PittBull's Log.

RPB,
   Thanks!  Maybe it's just that these people have to come up with SOME program to be different and sell books.  Probably also boils down to whatever you discover that works for your particular body.  Progressively overload the muscles, get proper nutrition and rest, and you're good to go, I suppose.

JMBS


RPB,
   Thanks!  Maybe it's just that these people have to come up with SOME program to be different and sell books.  Probably also boils down to whatever you discover that works for your particular body.  Progressively overload the muscles, get proper nutrition and rest, and you're good to go, I suppose.

Exactly. Its good to do both actually. To mix it up after two or three months. :)

Red PittBull's Log.

[font="'lucida grande'; line-height: normal; white-space: pre"]Obviously the more calories you get (considering they are from healthy sources not from big macs) the bigger you will get and yes of course mass doesn't depend solely on rep range. I've been reading a lot about all this the past 2 days trying to put together a routine and I've talked to many people. I wish I still had this article I read the other day that clearly outlines what rep ranges are ideal for what but I can't find it. Mainly I've always heard for mass the best is 8-12. Should you do 8-12 for the rest of your life? no of course not because your body adapts and it won't be beneficial. In the end the conclusion I've drawn is that there are ALOT of variables to consider in gaining mass such as diet, routine, rep speed, rep range, amount of sets, compound vs isolated exercises, etc.
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[font="'lucida grande'; line-height: normal; white-space: pre"]As for the 4-6, I'm sure you will get bigger with that but i'm still convinced that better for strength, just like 8-12 you still will get stronger, but it's better for mass.
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[font="'lucida grande'; line-height: normal; white-space: pre"]This link kinda cover everything in terms of building mass:
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[font="'lucida grande'; line-height: normal; white-space: pre"]http://www.discussbodyb...aining-Mass-m111173.aspx

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[font="'lucida grande'; line-height: normal; white-space: pre"]And it also says 9-12 is best for size

Well, do what rep range you wish. I will stick to my lower reps and heavier weight.

I'm sold that quality calories put mass on your bones, not rep ranges.

Your body doesn't know rep ranges and sets or the difference between HST or SS.

It knows stimulation and recovery. Low rep ranges with heavier weight causes muscle tears for recovery which leads to more mass.

As does lower weight higher reps. Its all about the food you shove down your throat.

Red PittBull's Log.

So the routine boils down to whatever is going to keep you coming to the gym?

Its all dependent on the routine J. If your doing Bill Starr's he wants 5x5 because he believes that that is optimal, and he has a whole system of percentages on that set/rep scheme progression over twelve weeks.


Rippetoe believes that 3x5 is good, as long as you increase every work out.

Just do what you want JMBS. Just as long as it reacts to your body to make the results you want. No one can give you a perfect routine for you over the internet. Every persons body is different.

Red PittBull's Log.

Red PittBull


Its all dependent on the routine J. If your doing Bill Starr's he wants 5x5 because he believes that that is optimal, and he has a whole system of percentages on that set/rep scheme progression over twelve weeks.


Rippetoe believes that 3x5 is good, as long as you increase every work out.

Just do what you want JMBS. Just as long as it reacts to your body to make the results you want. No one can give you a perfect routine for you over the internet. Every persons body is different.

Agreed. A big part of this game is just listening and observing what a routine does to your body every day. I don't respond well to high reps, but I blow up with low reps.

I didn't have traps until I started doing deadlift singles west side style 4 months ago when a year ago I was doing pointless smith machine shrugs for 30 reps and not seeing anything. That's just a personal example.

J, if you want a good read, I would check 5/3/1 by Jim Wendler. He is a no bull**** elite power lifter and the book will change the way you look at training. It did for me.

3x5 is simply for beginners. Read practical programing, its what people are encouraged to read after starting strength.

As you get more advanced it takes more to progress, and more to disrupt homeostasis.

I have seen some great results from 5x5 programs myself, but I dont discredit High rep stuff. Hell, im about to do the 20 rep squat program soon... but I think the general point has gotten through in this thread, no matter what you believe gets you bigger, your diet is going to play the big role there.

As for me...I believe you get better and more efficient at what ever you train to do. Do high reps? you build endurance and strength for that rep range. Do low reps? build endurance and strength for that. JMO atm, and im sure I will adjust and alter it the more I learn about weight lifting.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"