Its a matter of time

How long before the pro-hormones so rampant right now are concidered a band substance? Whenever I think about pro-hormones I think about steroids before they were banned. Personally, if I were going to use these, I might as well be using steroids for the effect they are having on my body.

Is it cheating? Maybe.

Is it wong? Not yet.

Is it for me? Hell no!!

Maybe I dont know enough about them (especially living in Canada where they are a banned substance) but they just don't seem right. Does anyone care to enlighten me??

BTW I have a very expensive bottle of test-1 in my bedroom closet with 4 pills missing. It has sat like this for about 6 months!

(Something Inspirational)!!!

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WOW, tell us how you really feel.

The following are my opinions on the whole topic they are only my opinions and are no doubt going to turn this into a popular thread. I will try to word this very carefully so that I'm perfectly clear, no doubt this will offend some.

Steroids are wrong because our leadership banned them years ago. Moderate doses of steroids provide substantial benefits with limited side effects, would I do them... hell no! Big Brother says I shouldn't. Don't take me wrong I do not in anyway condone the use of steroids nor do I think that most current users of anabolic steroids use "moderate doses"... in fact I would venture to say they are using twice what would be considered a moderate dose or more. Do I think that steroids should be sold uncontrolled over-the-counter? No, I don't think we (bodybuilders) as a whole are responsible enough to use recommended doses. We are the worst users of science. Just look through these forums, we are so damned lazy; we want the easy quick fix to everything. It can't possibly be our fault that we aren't gaining muscle. It can't possibly be our fault that we're 20 lbs overweight and it's not coming off. We want it, we want it now, and we don't want to work any harder or eat any better to get it. Hey, get a damn clue, you have to eat better and work harder to attain your goals. Here's another common misconception... Ronnie Coleman is as big as he is just because of juice. Hey let's take a poll, if you think you lift as hard as Ronnie go ahead and post up. Be man enough to post on here that you lift harder than Ronnie. YEA, RIGHT. You better go watch his videos before even attempting such a claim. He's an animal, the guy put on 25 lbs of muscle LAST YEAR. I'm not saying that drugs didn't help him to get to where he is, but guess what he attributes last years gains to... eating. That's the only thing he did different. You think he changed his drug regimen in the last year? NOT. I'm getting side tracked, but the point is professional bodybuilders have worked damn hard for a damned long time to get where they are... their success cannot be attributed to drugs alone, otherwise anyone who wanted to turn pro could. All you have to do is look at the line up at the national level to see that this just isn't true. Read Muscular Development (where the athletes are uncensored) they straight up tell guys who are looking to start using roids that they are crazy. The majority of the advice that I see is that if you can't get to the national level without the use of juice then you'll never make it anyway.

Are there bad steroids out there? Absolutely, there are drugs around that even when using moderate doses would produce side effects that outweigh the benefits. The continued attempts to stay ahead of drug testing produce a continual flow of new anabolic hormones. My understanding is that the new designer steroids that are under review by our judicial system really aren't all that good. So why do athletes's use them? Simple, they wouldn't get caught on a drug test. Of course now that the DEA has samples of it guess what, now they know what to test for. There will always be drugs out there that are undetectable and there will always be athletes who take them no matter the risk because they don't want to get caught.

As far as prohormones having the same effect on the body as roids... not even close. Not in the benefits, no prohormone will yield the results of an anabolic steroid (generally speaking, a high dose of PH may "outperform" a low dose of steroids). Not in the side effects, if it remotely produced negative side effects like those claimed (notice I said claimed) then it to would be banned immediately. Yes, claimed it's one thing to discourage use of substances by telling the truth, the problem with the steroid factoids is they just aren't true. They are so overstated; it doesn't take a genius to realize that it just isn't true. They are way overstated and to be honest with you that leads to the use of roids instead of deterrence. Guys look at a poster that says they are going to be impotent for the rest of their lives, but their buddy who came of a cycle 3 months ago just impregnated his girlfriend. They should just tell the truth, there's already enough of a reason not to use isn't there? How do you know what your putting in your system? This is black market stuff, by people who are looking to maximize profit margin, for all you know you could be injecting Goldschlager. Not to mention this crap can land you in jail for a long time. Risk worth taking? HELL NO!

The same thing happened to steroids as what happened to ephedrine. I think a lot of us can give testimonials to how good ephedrine was. The overstated side effects led to Big Brother mandating regulation of a good supplement. You can thank your fellow irresponsible ephedrine overdosers for that. The same thing happened to steroids. Are there steroids out there that should be illegal -- yes I think I’ve already established that. Certain variations should never have even been conceived, but if they were legal they probably never would have come into being anyway.

Now to get to your post... How long before PH are banned? I predict not long. I would say within a year prohormones will be classified pretty much the same way as steroids, and I think they are going to cast a wide net, so as to prevent future testosterone enhancing supplements.

Whenever I think about pro-hormones I think about steroids before they were banned.

Absolutely, and ephedrine also. They are getting a bad rap in my opinion. responsible use yields positive results with limited side effects for most users. we are all going to pay for the irresponsible use of the few.

Personally, if I were going to use these, I might as well be using steroids for the effect they are having on my body.

Laughable, already addressed.

Is it cheating? NO, not unless it's a banned substance like it is in the NCAA or Olympics. Let's address this issue while we're at it. Why does the NCAA ban substances like this? To keep the playing field level, that's why. Because the larger schools can afford to have their athletes taking a wide array of supplements while the smaller schools can't and the gap would just grow wider.

Is it wrong? NO, unless... well refer to question above, I don't need to insult your intelligence.

Is it for me? Well, that depends on you. Are you of age? Can you make an educated decision? CAN YOU STAY WITHIN THE RECOMMENDED DOSAGES? If you are younger than 25, I personally would say no. I think I've posted on this enough already, but why disturb your natural levels for a short-range boost temporary boost? Not worth the risk in my eyes.

Maybe I don’t know enough about them (especially living in Canada where they are a banned substance) but they just don't seem right. Does anyone care to enlighten me??

I hope I did just that.

BTW I have a very expensive bottle of test-1 in my bedroom closet with 4 pills missing. It has sat like this for about 6 months!

Not a big fan of 1-test. Took it for a month and I think the side effects outweighed the benefits. But at least I was the one to make that decision, and I think I'm responsible enough to do that, I don't need Big Brother telling me I can't. Not that the side effects were that bad, I just think there are better stacks out there that provide the same results with less negative attributes.

There you have it; no doubt going to cause some waves... oh well. I conclude all of this re-emphasizing that I have never nor will I ever use any form of illegal performance enhancing drug. I would say drug (instead of performance enhancing) but I drank alcohol before I turned 21 so that wouldn't be entirely true. Not only that, but I would not, do not, will not (a little Dr. Suess for ya) support the use of any illegal drug. So don't construe my statements in anyway as being supportive of illegal drug use.

Lift hard and eat well, that will solve most of your problems. Stop looking for a quick fix. However if you have your diet and training in order and can honestly say that 95% of the time you are doing everything right. Then there's nothing wrong with reponsible prohormone use.

D

Thank you for your great opinions

No, I don't think we (bodybuilders) as a whole are responsible enough to use recommended doses. We are the worst users of science. Just look through these forums, we are so damned lazy; we want the easy quick fix to everything. It can't possibly be our fault that we aren't gaining muscle. It can't possibly be our fault that we're 20 lbs overweight and it's not coming off. We want it, we want it now, and we don't want to work any harder or eat any better to get it. Hey, get a damn clue, you have to eat better and work harder to attain your goals.

So very very true. I known more people who have quit going to the gym after 2 months or less because they haven't seen the results they thought they would than I know people who go on a regular basis. I think most of us in this forum know we should set realistic goals with dates and steps needed to achieve these goals. However, for the beginner or novice lifter, who is inexperience with how their body reacts to excersise, it is hard to set these goals. "Gain 10lbs by tuesday", "lose 5lbs in 2 weeks for the big dance"... obviously these are gross exagerations, but you can immagine how ignorance could produce these mindsets. It really is discouraging when you start working out to lose fat and gain weight in muscle. The scale doesnt tell you the difference....

Wow... Now im getting side tracked. The point is, quick fixes or the easy way out are very appealing to the inexperienced because they simply dont know why its taking so long. They think that they are the odd man out or need to catch up with the rest of the guys at the gym.

I wouldnt recommend prohormones, creatine, or even protein (in certain instances) to a beginner simply because I think they should understand how their body reacts to excersise under their current conditions. Its also important to build a base foundation before you really start adding anything significant to your program. <<IMO

How long before PH are banned? I predict not long.

I have never nor will I ever use any form of illegal performance enhancing drug.

Does this mean if or when the FDA bans these products, you will simple throw your hands in the air and say... "Oops, I was wrong"! or are you going to be one of the millions of people who will rush out and clean the shelves of the few remaining bottles at your local supplement shacks. When I purchased my bottle of 1-test, the guy at the store asked me if I was a police officer!!! Thats only because I live in Canada where these products are concidered banned substances. Maybe that fact alone has skewed my perception of the entire matter. Or maybe it has made it that much clearer. The difference between right and wrong, cheating or legit still remains a matter of personal opinion much like the choice to smoke cigarettes.

Why does the NCAA ban substances like this? To keep the playing field level, that's why.

Do you seriously think its that simple? If I have heard correctly, NCAA is watched more than NBA basketball. A large segment of the population tunes into or surfs by these games on a regular basis. If the players in this league were using prohormones, they would be visibly larger in size/mass. This could and probably would influence that populations views of what they should look like somewhat like barbi did for adolescent teenagers. When word got out that their increased size was due to the use of prohormones which are readily available at their local GNC, the masses would flock to this wonderful mirracle product leaving reason and judgement at home.

To level out the playing field, of course. But I think there is a larger picture that must also be looked at.

quote:

Maybe I don’t know enough about them (especially living in Canada where they are a banned substance) but they just don't seem right. Does anyone care to enlighten me??

I hope I did just that.

Yes you've opened my eyes in a couple areas, but I dont think you understand just how stubborn I am. Your post was very well thought out with some very good points. However, I dont think that there was anything that swayed my opinion and put prohormones into a brighter light. Don't get me wrong, I am still keeping an open mind, but for the time being, that bottle of 1-test will stay right where it is (at least for the next 3 1/2 years until Im 25).

On a side note, I was looking for the quick fix, and I have looked for alternate/easier ways of getting to my goals. But good judgement for the most part has taken over and I realize that anything worth having is worth fighting for!!

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Does this mean if or when the FDA bans these products, you will simple throw your hands in the air and say... "Oops, I was wrong"!

Absolutely not, I think my position is well stated. I will feel the same way about prohormones as I do about ephedrine and steroids. That they were banned due to the stupidity of the few and the overstated side effects by those trying to get the product banned. I will no longer entertain the idea of using such products because my government tells me not to... and the bottom line is that's the right thing to do.

Now for the NCAA discussion: I don't think it's that simple I know it's that simple -- from a credible NCAA source. First off when I speak of the NCAA, I'm not just talking about basketball, I'm referring to all of collegiate athletics from football to women’s rifle competitions. I think most of the supplement issues pertain mostly to football. I was told by a college coach (this was years ago) that they could no longer supply creatine to their athlete's because the smaller schools couldn't afford to do it. Just like I said before -- doing so would increase the competitive gap between the larger schools and the smaller ones. There is more to it than that you are absolutely correct some of the supplements on that list are banned because they need to be. But can you explain caffeine to me?

Yes you've opened my eyes in a couple areas, but I don’t think you understand just how stubborn I am.

Ahh, aren't we all just as stubborn as possible? Hell yes, that's why we love this stupid sport, you have to be a stubborn idiot to put yourself through the torture that we inflict on ourselves day after day, month after month, year after year. That's what's so awesome about it, it binds us together at the core, and no outsider will ever begin to comprehend why we do this to ourselves... GOD I LOVE THIS SPORT! I don't want you to use the rest of that bottle that would be illegal drug use. You are a better man than that, I only hope that you can understand the crux of what I am trying to say. Ephedrine, prohormones, and some steroids have a bad rap, one that they don't deserve and the overstated side effects of these drugs only increases their use. Why can't they just tell the truth about them, there are already enough reasons not to take them. By the way if I were you I'd get rid of that bottle, I don't want it but I'm sure someone would be willing to take it off your hands. You don't want to be caught possessing illegal drugs.

Sincerely,
Stubborn Idiot #1

I will no longer entertain the idea of using such products because my government tells me not to... and the bottom line is that's the right thing to do.

Its kind of funny, because in Canada we don't always agree with our govenrment. You may have read about our constant debates regarding Marajuanna legislation. But Im not so sure you have heard about some of the sport supplement and health products which Canada deems unfit for the general population. Prohormones of any type (including growth hormone), melatonin, even vitamin K have been black listed. Sometimes these products are prohibited as they have yet to be proven safe, which is funny as the states rushes these products onto the market first and pulls them when they detect a problem. I guess the americans are our labrats in these instances. I've even seen products banned from the shelves because the American supplyers neglected to include English and French labelling. Other times its more ethical than anything which is why I believe prohormones have been x'd out. Either way, a Canadian resident needs only cross the border or have the products delivered right to our doorsteps via a seemlessly endless supply of internet businesses to legally purchase any of these items. Or the slightly... and I mean very slightly more risky way, by asking whats under the counter at the pocket shops all over our nation. The Government says no, but we are the deciding factor.

Im sure the matter is almost identical in America concerning steroids and now ephedra. I've heard most steroids come out of Mexico by normal people like you and I. If I was using steroids back when they were first banned, I dont think that I would so freely give up on something I had believed in for so many years. Once again my stuborn attitude would kick in and say, "No! I've been using these for a while and I deem them to be safe, no matter what the government thinks!".

Im not saying I dont take your word on the matter. You seem to have a very clear cut set of values and I admire you for that. More than anything, Im trying to stir the pot. Hopefully we can get some more opinions on the subject.

But can you explain caffeine to me?

I dont even think you could explain caffeine to me! At less than $10 for a large supply in supplement form its not a money thing.

Why can't they just tell the truth about them, there are already enough reasons not to take them.

Thats what I meant by enlighten me!! As I said, Im still keeping an open mind, no matter what the appearent illegalities of the issue. The fact that I still have the bottle shows that I havent ruled it out. I wish I could take back that "Hell no!!" From above, because it was a little too final.

Ahh, aren't we all just as stubborn as possible? Hell yes, that's why we love this stupid sport, you have to be a stubborn idiot to put yourself through the torture that we inflict on ourselves day after day, month after month, year after year. That's what's so awesome about it, it binds us together at the core, and no outsider will ever begin to comprehend why we do this to ourselves... GOD I LOVE THIS SPORT!

Couldn't have said it better! Except I probably would have put an "!" after sport, and capitalized the "Y" that follows.

Sincerely,
Stubborn Idiot #OO17

(Something Inspirational)!!!

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What an awesome discussion.

Mike,

I don't always agree with the decisions my government imposes on me but, just because I don't agree with the regulations doesn't make it right for me to disobey them. I'm sure that there are many Americans that share your view points concerning these regulations and I respect their decisions, however the original discussion was aimed directly at me, and as stated above I will never use an illegal substance.

Caffeine may be cheap but when your talking about supplying 120 athletes frequently for 4 months it can be fairly costly.

I was primarily referring to steroids when I talk about telling the truth, and I would prefer not to post any info on steroids other than what has been mentioned however I think that the arguements are basically the same. The problem with PH's is the limited number of reliable studies that have been performed... so I rely on gym knowledge and "American lab-rat studies" (as you would refer to them). Hardly reliable information worth posting, unless it is from my own personal experience. I can post on the stuff I've take n in the past if you would like and the side effects I experienced if that'll help.

Still,
Stubborn Idiot #1

What an awesome discussion.

quite It's the first thing I check when I log on!

so I rely on gym knowledge and "American lab-rat studies" (as you would refer to them). Hardly reliable information worth posting...

This is one of my concerns. When I go to the gym now, I see all these old school steroid users who have obviously surcome to the uglier side of these wonder drugs. Im not exactly sure how long prohormones have been on the market or widely accepted, however, I do think that they are new enough that we might not know the concequences of our actions. Who knows, in 10 or 20 years when we hit the gym, there will probably be a small group of kids in the corner pointing and laughing at the characteristic side effects we've surcome to. Being called a "hormo" would strip us of all the dignity we've worked hard to build up for years and years. Who am I to trust some over-opinionated gym rat. The only other place i've found where I can get information on pro-hormones (besides here of course) is the shady shop that sells me them. Let me tell you, I heard nothing about down cycles or ****tits when they sold them to me. I did, however, hear a very audible "Kaching" as I walked out the door staring at my future in a bottle.

On a totally unrelated thought:

Why would a person use pro-hormones? Should you only use them to advance the ranks in bodybuilding, or add mass for your beer league hockey team. Or are they simply for the guy who wants to walk down the beach with his shirt off? When I purchased my bottle of 1-test, I was about to begin work as a doorman at a club which had a bad reputation for violence. I was thinking more about safety than impressing the girls who walked through the doors.

When crunch time came, I decided that I had a big enough build that it wasnt worth messing with my hormones. Its funny, because you guys say not to take them if your still poppin zits. Well I didnt know that little tid bit then, and I noticed taking a very low dose (1 a day for 4 days) that my acne did flare up. When this happened I decided to call it quits (for now)

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I was primarily referring to steroids when I talk about telling the truth, and I would prefer not to post any info on steroids other than what has been mentioned however I think that the arguments are basically the same.

Go ahead. It's more fuel for this debate if you have something to specifically say. I've been reading this one closely. It bring a tear to my eye.

The rules about steroids and DB pertain to posting how to use them, get them, inject them, pros about them.. stuff like that. This is not a steroid forum. But in the topic at hand, if you have science to talk about or an argument about roids, it's good.

The whole steroid topic isn't off limits. The real off limits is talking about them like it's a supplement and things pertaining to it's purchase and use.

Doesn't mean the whole word and concept cannot be mentioned in the proper context.

Remember what Powerhaus the Squirrel said, "CONTEXT"

Marc C. David
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I don't want to glamorize the use of steroids, so I personally prefer to keep the topic to prohormones. The arguments are the same though; in general increasing testosterone levels by any means are going to produce the same results. Now before the onslaught comes down; I'm talking only about increasing testosterone levels... not the means by which this is accomplished. The means, often times causes additional side effects... for now lets stick to the basics.

Hair loss -- totally possible that you would accelerate or trigger hair loss... haven't experience this, and really how would you prove it? But scientist say it happens so I guess it happens.

Aggressiveness -- personally I haven't had uncontrollable aggressiveness. I have experience what I would call enhanced enthusiasm to lift. But this is no doubt an area that needs to be taken into consideration if you already are on the brink of being a complete jackass.

Gynecomastia -- this is more of a means type side effect but it's such a large area of concern and you mentioned it so I'll cover it here. This is caused by conversion of the "product" (whatever that may be) to estrogen. This undesirable conversion provides no benefits to us (the bodybuilder), and the increased E-levels cause feminine reactions equivalent to that of a 13-year-old chick going through puberty. My understanding is that the most noticeable initial effect is increased nipple sensitivity. This can be remedied by taking a "product" that does not convert easily to estrogen or by taking an estrogen inhibitor. This in my opinion is why it's important not to be cheap when buying prohormones. The better ones will not convert readily... do your research. The problem with the first andro's was E-conversion. Gyno can be resolved with surgery but why let it get to that level?

Testicular shrinkage -- never experienced it... but when you take over the task of testosterone production by increasing the levels by your own means for an extended period of time -- it's quite possible. This too should clear up over time unless you find it impossible to cycle. Cycling is definitely the key when you’re playing with your hormones, you don't want to shut off your natural test levels. Flex Wheeler talks about this fairly extensively on a monthly basis, he now has to take a "product" just to bring his test levels to a normal level. Never start another cycle if your still experiencing side effects from a previous cycle. I would recommend an absolute maximum of 2 - 8 week cycles a year just to be on the safe side... I won't even think about more than that. I'm very conservative about the whole issue though.

Decreased libido -- Yep, not that you have no sex drive it just takes more convincing. Not necessarily a bad thing as long as your significant other doesn't mind extended "sessions". Once again, should fade with time as long as you cycle correctly.

Acne -- definitely, we increase our test levels to the same level that we had when we were 17. What do you expect will happen? Not a big deal it'll fade back out as your test levels do the same. Remember back 10 years to what you did then and wash your face 4 times a day to keep it under control. I've had more of a problem with back acne than anywhere else -- wear a T-shirt.

My point about not taking PH's while your popping zits is two fold. First, why do you need higher levels, look at what it’s doing to you already. Secondly you don't want to disturb nature at that time, it's a critical time in life as far as balancing hormonal levels, so why jack with it? Once things settle down permanently feel free but I would wait until then.

Who am I to trust some over-opinionated gym rat.

Good call, when it comes to PHs I don't trust just anyone. TwinPeak has an extensive knowledge of supplements, I trust what he says. I trust my close friends when it comes to these things. If you don't trust a guy to tell you that he can't get it up... then don't trust him to tell you about PHs. I think I've established the fact that I'll lay it all on the table.

Why would a person use pro-hormones?

Individual decision... you're a grown man. Who am I to tell you what to do? All I'll suggest is for you to educate yourself on the pros and cons and make a well-informed decision. People have used roids for years for different reasons from athletic performance all the way to pick up chicks. Why would it change now? In your case things are different since they are illegal and I wouldn't recommend to anyone to use an illegal substance. The cons outweigh the pros in that case (from my vantage point).

More along the lines of what you're looking for?
Stubborn Idiot #1

funny how everyone mentiones acne.....testosterone has SOME to do with it...but 90% of it occurs becuase the skin is "shedding" faster than the pores can get rid of it, then the bacteria causes infection and blah blah blah..just thought id add that in there......but arent the hormones available now LESS potent?? hmmmmmmm real good discussion all of you!!!!

If 90% of it has to with the shedding of flaking skin then why does Acne only effect us during those teenage years?

but arent the hormones available now LESS potent??

I don't think so... we are talking about the current prohormone market right? I think the stuff coming out now is much more potent than what we saw in the beginning. Maybe we can get a response out of TwinPeak for something official. From the users perspective I'd say what's out there now is far better than what was out there 5 years ago.

D

I agree. Newer usually means better. So when we're talking about pro-hormones that means more testosterone or more "potent". Finally something we can agree upon DJ.

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How long before the pro-hormones so rampant right now are concidered a band substance?

Very soon, unfortunately. The House passed the bill, and now the Senate has to approve it. I'd rather have them available for those people who are responsible. The few who abuse stuff like this are what make our rights to choose get eroded everyday.

While I am not interested in taking PH right now, I am still interested in testing them sometime in the distant future. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like that will happen.

"Try and fail is the manner of losers. Try and learn is the way of the strong." -- Unknown

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i feel that if you dont choose to take AAS, that is a personal choice....but to then bash the responsible use of true steroids and hormones is either fear or the TRUE lack of scientific/chemistry/biological knowledge of the substances and the actual effects it has to the human body....NOT fear mongering media and horror stories of a few IRRESPONSIBLE individuals. Please expain to me the difference of taking androstendione or testosterone. The one thing about the "easy" way out I would agree with. Bodybuilding is a lifestyle. It is rewarded through discipline, intensity, hard work and focus......not a majic pill or injection. The choice of using ANY kind of supplement or pharmaceutical, is a PERSONAL choice and should be respected as such, and if personal views differ, than make damn sure you got REAL information to make your case.....just my opinion

From what i'm hearing, most you guys sound very young. I would educate myself a little before commenting on either steroids or prohormones.

Prohormones are the precusor to testorone production. Men in their 20-30's produce about 6-7000mm of testosterone per day. Prohormones help the body produce more testoserone....period. They have very little side effects and have been around since 1996. It was only by chance that a reporter saw Mark Mcquires bottle of andre test on his bedroom dresser that he found out about Mcquires secret edge....but most of the other atletes were already taking them.

Not everyone produces the same amount of test. As we age, the body produces less and less of it. Male Hormone replacement treatment is becoming one of the cutting edge science hot topics and will be for years to come.

Some people have what are called "addictive personalities!" These people are the ones who end up being drug addicts or alcholholics. (Sorry about the spelling). If you are one of these types, then one shot of testosterone won't be enough for you....you will have to do ten. When you do ten....your body will have a negative reaction (eventually) and you will feel the results of such abuse.

Everything in moderation.

Meanwhile....read and study all you can!