Incorrect or Correct Advice?

I was just browing the web and came across a post by a member of a forum which was as follows:

"Shoulder width chins with a curl grip are the best exercise of the group for your lats. The wider grips limit the range of motion for the exercise while the closer grip maximizes it. Next, the curl grip puts your biceps in a stronger position. The biceps are a weak link in chins etc. because of their relative lack of strength compared to the very large and powerful lattisimus muscles. You must maximize the weak link in order to work the lats properly, otherwise the arms (biceps) fail way before the back has a chance to get full benefit from the exercise."


Now, my understanding up to this point was the complete opposite of what this poster is saying, would be the more effective way to hit your lats when doing pulls/chins. However several other members of the board tipped what he said as good advice. My opinion though, was that a wider, pronated grip would be better because it means your arms are doing less of the work.


So, who's right?

V,
    You're the Clipart Photoshop GOD!

 

I always thought the opposite also, but I noticed doing pull ups instead of chin ups, my lats get more of a pump, so this may have some truth to it.

If you read it on the internet, it must be true!

Seriously though, do all types of grips - both pronated, supinated, neutral, wide, and narrow..... Instead of thinking "which way would hit the lats the best?" think in terms of climbing up a mountain, which would use ALL types of grips.

There are so many different muscles in the back that contribute to "the lat spread", that thinking that one certain grip is the BEST one to achieve that look would be kind of ridiculous logic.

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

Perrynaytor


I always thought the opposite also, but I noticed doing pull ups instead of chin ups, my lats get more of a pump, so this may have some truth to it.

pronated grip is actually pullups

V,
    You're the Clipart Photoshop GOD!

 

Which is pronated? I get so confused with this garbage. I do them palms facing me, whatever that is.

That would be supinated

V,
    You're the Clipart Photoshop GOD!

 

I don't think a grip change constitutes it being called another exercise.

President of the Emancipation Detoxification. DBB's oldest forum group, punching baby seals since 2/12/08

Crap.

Its usually the lats that are weaker, did you ever wonder why supinated chins are easier then pronated pull ups?

and the wider the pronated grip, the harder the pull ups.

Its not a matter of working the weaker link, the lats are just responsible for much more of the exercises.

If you do want to target the biceps more you can do more chins.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Here is an article from T-Nation I liked.

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1954579

Misconception #8:

"They say pull-ups work your lats more than chin-ups because they minimize the use of your biceps. They're also harder so they must be better."

I can hear the whistle of incoming flames already. Some of you are probably thinking, "Surely this can't be a misconception." Well, just hang in there (pun intended) and hear me out. Others may be scratching their heads and saying, "But aren't pull-ups and chins just different names for the same exercise?" No, they're not. Let's once again define our terms. When you do pull-ups, your hands are pronated (palms facing away from the body when placed on the bar), and you typically grip the bar a bit wider than shoulder width.

When you do chin-ups, your hands are supinated (palms facing towards the body when placed on the bar) and you grip the bar right around shoulder width, or a bit narrower or wider depending on individual comfort.

Most people find that chin-ups are easier because you're better able to use your biceps, and pull-ups are harder because you can't use your biceps as much. They likely deduce that because of this, pull-ups allow you to put more stress on the lats, and therefore are better for lat development. It's an understandable conclusion, but it's wrong.

In the chin-up, the biceps are placed in a much more efficient pulling position. This enables one to do more reps, or use more weight, as compared to the pull-up, which places the biceps in a comparatively weaker pulling position. If we are trying to get maximal development of the lats, we want to maximize the loading (and loading duration) of the involved musculature by placing the smallest muscles in a position where they can last the longest or be loaded the greatest so that they don't give out prior to the larger muscles involved. Chin-ups accomplish this. Pull-ups don't.

Make no mistake about it, in the pull-up the elbow still flexes, and the movement will be over when the elbow can no longer flex. In addition, the lat contracts through a greater range of motion at the glenohumeral joint on the chin-up. Generally, it's always better to take a muscle through its full safe range of motion for optimal development.

Many times, though, trainees will become concerned with where they "feel" the exercise and they imagine they "feel" the pull-up more in the lats and feel chin-ups more in the biceps. However, unless you have some crazy strength imbalance and can curl your bodyweight, you don't need to worry about feeling chin-ups in your biceps.

By the way, about that upper back "pump" you think you're feeling in your lats after a set of pull-ups: what you're actually feeling is the teres major (a.k.a the "mini-lat"), a relatively small muscle that's being recruited more in the pull-up variation because of the greater adduction component at the shoulder.

That "lat pump" you feel after doing pullups is actually the little teres major.

I'm not suggesting that the pull-up isn't a viable alternative to chins on occasion, but I do believe that if you're using them to maximally develop your lats because you think your biceps aren't involved as much, you need to re-examine your approach.

Chins are probably a better option because you can increase the duration of loading on the lats and use more load in comparison along with an increase in the range of motion. The arm development from chins is a nice side benefit as well, which I'm sure many wouldn't complain about.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I can do more weight with my hands pronated than supinated.

President of the Emancipation Detoxification. DBB's oldest forum group, punching baby seals since 2/12/08

MVP


Here is an article from T-Nation I liked.

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1954579

Misconception #8:

"They say pull-ups work your lats more than chin-ups because they minimize the use of your biceps. They're also harder so they must be better."

I can hear the whistle of incoming flames already. Some of you are probably thinking, "Surely this can't be a misconception." Well, just hang in there (pun intended) and hear me out. Others may be scratching their heads and saying, "But aren't pull-ups and chins just different names for the same exercise?" No, they're not. Let's once again define our terms. When you do pull-ups, your hands are pronated (palms facing away from the body when placed on the bar), and you typically grip the bar a bit wider than shoulder width.

When you do chin-ups, your hands are supinated (palms facing towards the body when placed on the bar) and you grip the bar right around shoulder width, or a bit narrower or wider depending on individual comfort.

Most people find that chin-ups are easier because you're better able to use your biceps, and pull-ups are harder because you can't use your biceps as much. They likely deduce that because of this, pull-ups allow you to put more stress on the lats, and therefore are better for lat development. It's an understandable conclusion, but it's wrong.

In the chin-up, the biceps are placed in a much more efficient pulling position. This enables one to do more reps, or use more weight, as compared to the pull-up, which places the biceps in a comparatively weaker pulling position. If we are trying to get maximal development of the lats, we want to maximize the loading (and loading duration) of the involved musculature by placing the smallest muscles in a position where they can last the longest or be loaded the greatest so that they don't give out prior to the larger muscles involved. Chin-ups accomplish this. Pull-ups don't.

Make no mistake about it, in the pull-up the elbow still flexes, and the movement will be over when the elbow can no longer flex. In addition, the lat contracts through a greater range of motion at the glenohumeral joint on the chin-up. Generally, it's always better to take a muscle through its full safe range of motion for optimal development.

Many times, though, trainees will become concerned with where they "feel" the exercise and they imagine they "feel" the pull-up more in the lats and feel chin-ups more in the biceps. However, unless you have some crazy strength imbalance and can curl your bodyweight, you don't need to worry about feeling chin-ups in your biceps.

By the way, about that upper back "pump" you think you're feeling in your lats after a set of pull-ups: what you're actually feeling is the teres major (a.k.a the "mini-lat"), a relatively small muscle that's being recruited more in the pull-up variation because of the greater adduction component at the shoulder.

That "lat pump" you feel after doing pullups is actually the little teres major.

I'm not suggesting that the pull-up isn't a viable alternative to chins on occasion, but I do believe that if you're using them to maximally develop your lats because you think your biceps aren't involved as much, you need to re-examine your approach.

Chins are probably a better option because you can increase the duration of loading on the lats and use more load in comparison along with an increase in the range of motion. The arm development from chins is a nice side benefit as well, which I'm sure many wouldn't complain about.

The problem with chins is that a lot of people think they are getting full ROM but they do not go down all the way, stop with arms fully extended and then restart. What they do is leave their biceps partially flexed which drastically decreases the range and most of their movement is just flexing of the bicep through its range. If done correctly they may be the better option if you had to name one or the other, especially for those just starting out.

That being said I prefer wide-grip pull ups and close grip chins. Both are necessary in my opinion.

that article on t-nation is good read

V,
    You're the Clipart Photoshop GOD!

 

RedJeep

MVP


Here is an article from T-Nation I liked.

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1954579

Misconception #8:

"They say pull-ups work your lats more than chin-ups because they minimize the use of your biceps. They're also harder so they must be better."

I can hear the whistle of incoming flames already. Some of you are probably thinking, "Surely this can't be a misconception." Well, just hang in there (pun intended) and hear me out. Others may be scratching their heads and saying, "But aren't pull-ups and chins just different names for the same exercise?" No, they're not. Let's once again define our terms. When you do pull-ups, your hands are pronated (palms facing away from the body when placed on the bar), and you typically grip the bar a bit wider than shoulder width.

When you do chin-ups, your hands are supinated (palms facing towards the body when placed on the bar) and you grip the bar right around shoulder width, or a bit narrower or wider depending on individual comfort.

Most people find that chin-ups are easier because you're better able to use your biceps, and pull-ups are harder because you can't use your biceps as much. They likely deduce that because of this, pull-ups allow you to put more stress on the lats, and therefore are better for lat development. It's an understandable conclusion, but it's wrong.

In the chin-up, the biceps are placed in a much more efficient pulling position. This enables one to do more reps, or use more weight, as compared to the pull-up, which places the biceps in a comparatively weaker pulling position. If we are trying to get maximal development of the lats, we want to maximize the loading (and loading duration) of the involved musculature by placing the smallest muscles in a position where they can last the longest or be loaded the greatest so that they don't give out prior to the larger muscles involved. Chin-ups accomplish this. Pull-ups don't.

Make no mistake about it, in the pull-up the elbow still flexes, and the movement will be over when the elbow can no longer flex. In addition, the lat contracts through a greater range of motion at the glenohumeral joint on the chin-up. Generally, it's always better to take a muscle through its full safe range of motion for optimal development.

Many times, though, trainees will become concerned with where they "feel" the exercise and they imagine they "feel" the pull-up more in the lats and feel chin-ups more in the biceps. However, unless you have some crazy strength imbalance and can curl your bodyweight, you don't need to worry about feeling chin-ups in your biceps.

By the way, about that upper back "pump" you think you're feeling in your lats after a set of pull-ups: what you're actually feeling is the teres major (a.k.a the "mini-lat"), a relatively small muscle that's being recruited more in the pull-up variation because of the greater adduction component at the shoulder.

That "lat pump" you feel after doing pullups is actually the little teres major.

I'm not suggesting that the pull-up isn't a viable alternative to chins on occasion, but I do believe that if you're using them to maximally develop your lats because you think your biceps aren't involved as much, you need to re-examine your approach.

Chins are probably a better option because you can increase the duration of loading on the lats and use more load in comparison along with an increase in the range of motion. The arm development from chins is a nice side benefit as well, which I'm sure many wouldn't complain about.

The problem with chins is that a lot of people think they are getting full ROM but they do not go down all the way, stop with arms fully extended and then restart. What they do is leave their biceps partially flexed which drastically decreases the range and most of their movement is just flexing of the bicep through its range. If done correctly they may be the better option if you had to name one or the other, especially for those just starting out.

That being said I prefer wide-grip pull ups and close grip chins. Both are necessary in my opinion.

Yeah, my clients all try to cheat themselves by not fully extending at the bottom. They pretty much do half chinups, luckily, I've always went completely down to an extended elbow position and then paused for 1 second to complete my set. I don't like pullups anymore personally, I just never got a good response from them, I like chinups 100 times better. My back development was greater once I switched as well. Every so often I'll switch back to conventional pullups for a day or so and then continue doing my chins regularly but I love chinups now. Both are great and should be incorporated in any program though. It's just more of a preference, one allows the biceps to work harder and the other allows the brachioradialis to work harder.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

ha, good post.

Learn something new every day. Maybe I will start incorporating chins more, its just crazy because it really seems like pull ups are a much better exercise for the lats, especially wide grip.

From my experience, my lats really started to respond more when I could do sets of wide grip pull ups opposed to chins.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

I actually don't agree with the T-nation article after reading it through for a second time.

RedJeep


I actually don't agree with the T-nation article after reading it through for a second time.

Would you mind explaining?

My whole reasoning for thinking what I did, is because during a pullup the bicep is at a less then ideal pulling positioning compared to the chinup as pointed out in the article, especially during a wide grip pull up.

So thinking that it just made sense to me, that while yes the ROM is a bit less, the mechanics of the movement require the lats to work harder, especially since the bicep is in the position it is in.

I never meant to say that doing chins targets primarily the biceps, thats crazy. But in a chin up the elbows and palms are fully supinated allowing maximal contraction.

Oh well :P live and learn I suppose.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

One thing I noticed while doing chins is that I don't feel any specific areas of fatigue, I just can't complete another one.  It's not like on dips where you feel your triceps give out.

President of the Emancipation Detoxification. DBB's oldest forum group, punching baby seals since 2/12/08

Nm0ney34


My whole reasoning for thinking what I did, is because during a pullup the bicep is at a less then ideal pulling positioning compared to the chinup as pointed out in the article, especially during a wide grip pull up.

So thinking that it just made sense to me, that while yes the ROM is a bit less, the mechanics of the movement require the lats to work harder, especially since the bicep is in the position it is in.

I never meant to say that doing chins targets primarily the biceps, thats crazy. But in a chin up the elbows and palms are fully supinated allowing maximal contraction.

Oh well :P live and learn I suppose.

You're probably right about that, I'm unsure, I wouldn't argue that lats may be worked harder during a pullup since you can pull yourself up higher and the elbow positioning is different. I'm also glad you pointed out that the biceps aren't the primary muscles (the agonists) during a chin-up as most people often think. The difference from my understanding is that you can use your biceps more during a chinup, and if the chin-up works the lats to the same degree as a pullup (can't be proven or dis-proven though) then it would result in the end more tension to the lats seeing they would be able to go longer, at least in my opinion. I'd love to get Dan's opinion it, hopefully he reads this thread.

You could always do both when it comes down to it though, or you could just do whichever one you feel the better contraction with. I used to be an all pullup guy until I switched to should-width chin-ups, now I love chin-ups and they're basically the only vertical pull I incorporate. It's kind of like comparing a supinated grip barbell row with a pronated grip barbell row, the back muscles may be worked differently but we'll never know to what extent exactly until there is an actual study that concludes one is more important than the other.

Just do whichever you like, or both, I like hammer grip pullups better than both personally but I'm afraid I'll break a door with my iron gym. :P

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP,
   What is your advice for me?  Should I mix in some supinated chins with the pronated pulls?  It concerns me that I'm not getting good ROM with my weak pulls.  Of course I want lat spread most of all but any back work would be beneficial.  Thx!

I couldn't regularly get a good lat spread either at first, I would probably have you alternate with chin-ups and pull-ups until you could get better. What I've been doing is this split right here.


Monday- Workout session 1- Project Lower Body
Quad Work: **Squat: 5 x 5
Hamstring Work: **Glute Ham Raise: DC
Gluteus Work: **Deadlift: 3 x 5 (lower resistance to keep progression simple)
Calf Work: **Standing Calf Raises: DC (to target more of the gastrocnemius)
Abdominal Work: **Hanging Leg Raises: 3 x 15

Tuesday- Workout session 2- Project Upper Body (Push Dominant)
Chest Work: **Flat Bench Press: DC
Back Work: **Barbell Row: DC
Triceps Work: **Skull Crushers: DC
Shoulder Work: **OHP:  (Light)
Vertical Pull: **Chin-up: 1 set until failure (try to beat previous reps or tempo each week)

Wednesday- HIIT, stretching, or rest

Thursday- Workout Session 3- Project Lower Body
Quad Work: **Lunges: DC
Hamstring Work: **Stiff-leg deadlift: 3 x 10
Posterior Chain: **Good Morning or Power Clean: 3 x 10 (5 x 3 if power cleans)
Calf Work: **Seated Calf Raises (to target more of the soleus)
Abdominal Work: **Hanging Leg Raises: 3 x 15

Friday- Workout Session 4- Project Upper Body (Pull Dominant)
Back Width (Vertical Pull): 2 minute best (when you plateau, switch to minute)
Vertical Press: **Standing Barbell Press: DC
Back Thickness (Horizontal Pull): **Barbell Row: 3 x 10 (can be replaced with cable rows, dumbbell rows, or face pulls)
Biceps Isolation: **Barbell Curls, preacher curls, or cable curls: DC or 3 x 10
Chest Isolation: Cable Fly’s, incline presses or fly's, decline work, weighted dips, lateral raises, push accessory/isolation of your choice

On Friday, I have people do 2 minutes of as many chin-ups as possible and try to beat their previous rep total each week, once you get to the point where you can do around 40 or so (depended upon your strength) it gets more difficult and I switch to 3 minutes with 50-60 as the goal, that routine will be posted on bodybuilding.com as soon as I hear back from the editor (I sent my contract off last week). I'll PM you the link as it's more detailed on there.

I would probably try the two minute thing mixing chin-up, pull-up, hammer pull-up, etc.

What is your current pullup total in a single set? Are you still doing assisted pullups or are you focusing on the isometric/eccentric tension?

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

All my life I have been taught to do pull ups over chin ups, I have really liked nuetral grip chins but maybe i should try regular chins more often.  My biceps could use the work anyhow cause i never curl, and it would be interesting to see if I think doing them more effects my back development

http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/Seos-Log-2008-m442008.aspx

Well, in the gym yesterday I did a couple sets of heavy chins after not doing them for about a year - been doing pulls instead. And I did infact feel it hitting my lats a lot more than any pull set I've done, think I might switch over to chins now.

V,
    You're the Clipart Photoshop GOD!

 

_Virtuoso_


Well, in the gym yesterday I did a couple sets of heavy chins after not doing them for about a year - been doing pulls instead. And I did infact feel it hitting my lats a lot more than any pull set I've done, think I might switch over to chins now.

That's what I did, did pulls for a really long time and when I switched to chins for  a session I felt a better lat contraction. My back just feels wider and stronger now too.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I think your post-apocalyptic mask is on too tight. 

_Virtuoso_


Well, in the gym yesterday I did a couple sets of heavy chins after not doing them for about a year - been doing pulls instead. And I did infact feel it hitting my lats a lot more than any pull set I've done, think I might switch over to chins now.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Nm0ney34


I think your post-apocalyptic mask is on too tight. 

why so?

V,
    You're the Clipart Photoshop GOD!

 

_Virtuoso_


Well, in the gym yesterday I did a couple sets of heavy chins after not doing them for about a year - been doing pulls instead. And I did infact feel it hitting my lats a lot more than any pull set I've done, think I might switch over to chins now.

I did a couple sets of chins (supinated grip) today.  I did 2 sets of 5 each.  I hopped and held isometric for 7 seconds and then did a 7 second negative on each rep.  My forearms were on fire!  Whatever that muscle is that runs from the pinky side of my hands to the elbows, whoa!  It was as if the chins were harder than the pulls!  I'm going to keep doing 1/2 chins and 1/2 pull for the tiime being.

Yeah if you switch to chins after pulls for a while you'll wonder why you didn't incorporate chins every so often. I don't believe either is more superior than the other but both exercises IMO are necessary with any program.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant