Help

First...the fact that you feel no ache is good.  that means your level of conditioning is improving.
 
Muscle soreness has NOTHING to do with progress/growth etc...!
 
One thing I want to say is that I DO NOT know your training history..meaning how long you have trained and what routines you have cycled through!
 
However, if fat los is a goal, you must keep the training time DOWN!  Also you must insure that you stimulate muscle adequately but not overtrain it and then let it rest.
 
Now on the chest workout..that is 15 sets and WAAAAY to many.
 
Dial that back to maybe 3-6 sets!
That would be 2 warm up sets and then 3-6 sets of optimal lifting.
 
One or MAYBE two compound movements (bench, incline bench)
and MAYBE one isolation movement (fly)
 
Then vary the exercises you choose from day to day!
9 sets for curls after 9 sets for back?  Overdoing it!!
 
Here, follow this link and read this workout, it gives a good plan that will fix your problem!
 
3 day per week training
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=04-073-training
 
or this
HST (Hypertrophy Specific Training)
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html
 
After 4-6 weeks of that you could switch to something like this:
 
S.A.I.S. (Specific Adaption to Imposed Stress) Training
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/jeff1.htm

 
Making sense?

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Overtraining. Is that why my biceps don't seem to be growing or they look like eggs when i flex them? lol.

So is it ok if i did just 3 types of workout for it per session? (e.g 1 week  inclined , flat , cables. 2nd week inclined flys , flat fly, cables.)

What should i do instead of 9 sets of backs and 9 sets of curls? Just stick to 6 sets of backs and 6 sets of curls is enough???

About my training, i've been training since world cup i believe it was June last yr. At the start i didnt notice any growth except strength wise i was becoming stronger. But i used to train badly, meaning i did chest bicep and tricep each time i went to gym. I've changed the workout since then and went along with cutting. Since my diet was bad too i've also lost abit of strength that i'm trying to gain back by eating right. How long should i take to notice a slight change? 2 months?

Hmmm. I've read those articles and i think its awesome. Was wondering if i began the S.A.I.S Training, Would it be ok if i did Chest tri , OFF , back bi , OFF, shoulders legs? instead of their weekly routine of chest bi , legs , OFF  , shoulders triceps, Back Calves.?

START with either HST or 3-day...then Progress to SAIS.
 
The name of the game is progression and change..if you want to see results you have to CHANGE your training!
 

How long should i take to notice a slight change? 2 months?

2 weeks.  IF YOU CHANGE THE TRAINING!
 
However about the SAIS:
Monday: Chest, biceps
Tuesday: Legs
Wednesday: Off
Thursday: Shoulders, triceps
Friday: Back, calves
Saturday: Off
Sunday: Off
 
YOU WILL NOTICE THAT THIS IS DIFFERENT THAN WHAT YOU NORMALLY DO!
 
Get that in your head!
 
IT must be different to be considered a change!
 
Give up your ego need to mess with the routines and do them as they are presented!
 
If you started in June..then you should go to the 3-day workout...
 
HAve you taken a week off since then?
If not RULE!  Take a week off every 8-12 weeks!!!
 
If you have not done so, do it now.  I whole week with no trianing.
Plan your workouts and meals instead of training.
 
Then come back with the 3-day plan..read it well.
 

So is it ok if i did just 3 types of workout for it per session? (e.g 1 week  inclined , flat , cables. 2nd week inclined flys , flat fly, cables.)

What should i do instead of 9 sets of backs and 9 sets of curls? Just stick to 6 sets of backs and 6 sets of curls is enough???

As I am recommending a switch to the 3-day plan...he is very explicit about what to do...read carefull and read multiple times.
 
What ever your plan, post your first planned week!

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Nope i haven't taken a break yet. I'll take this week off and start the 3-day programme next week =D.

However i dun quite get the training part of the 3-day program.

He says
Workout 1

Sets: 3
Reps: 5
Rest: 60 seconds between sets
Load: Choose a weight that forces you to near-failure for the last rep of the last set.*
*This is the recommended load for all workouts.


Then theres workout 2 and 3 under week 1. Also he says 6 exercises per session means 18 sets altogether in one workout?


Does it look something like this :
Back - Sitted rows , Pull downs(Semi supinated and supinated), Deadlift (4 compunds)
Biceps - Barbell curls , Dumbell Curls (2 single-joints)

Oh, my..well that could be one problem right there...no rest!

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And for this routine its ok for my to do Chest/Tri , Back/bi and Shoulder/Legs UNTIL i switch over to S.A.I.S right?

Or am i suppose to switch between them? like workout 1 for week 1 is chest/tri then workout 1 for week 2 can be chest biceps?

Or does his plan mean i do a full body workout each time i hit the gym? just with different types of exercises each time?

OMG i'm so confused now

No, you will train the WHOLE BODY 3x a week
You would do the whole program as listed for 8 weeks!

However i dun quite get the training part of the 3-day program.

He says
Workout 1

Sets: 3
Reps: 5
Rest: 60 seconds between sets
Load: Choose a weight that forces you to near-failure for the last rep of the last set.*
*This is the recommended load for all workouts.


Then theres workout 2 and 3 under week 1. Also he says 6 exercises per session means 18 sets altogether in one workout?


Does it look something like this :
Back - Sitted rows , Pull downs(Semi supinated and supinated), Deadlift (4 compunds)
Biceps - Barbell curls , Dumbell Curls (2 single-joints)

Choose four exercises under the list of compound exercises.
Choose two exercises under the single-joint exercise list.
Don't leave out any major muscle groups.

Compound Exercises

Chest: Incline, flat, decline barbell or dumbbell bench presses. Wide-grip dips.
Back: Upright or horizontal rows. Pull-ups or pulldowns with pronated, semi-supinated, and supinated grips.
Deltoids: Standing or seated military presses with a barbell or dumbbells utilizing pronated, semi-supinated or supinated hand positions.
Quads: High-bar full barbell squats, hack squats or front squats.
Lower Back/Hips: Traditional and/or sumo-style deadlifts or Good Mornings. Power cleans or snatches.

Single-Joint Exercises

Biceps: Barbell curls, hammer curls or preacher curls.
Triceps: Lying barbell or dumbbell triceps extensions, and pronated or supinated grip pressdowns.
Deltoids: Front, side or rear dumbbell raises.
Hamstrings: Glute-ham raises or leg curls.
Calves: Standing, seated or donkey calf raises.

Stick to the above list of exercises for optimal results.

Load: Choose a weight that forces you to near-failure for the last rep of the last set.*
*This is the recommended load for all workouts.
 

Week 1
 
Workout 1
Sets: 3
Reps: 5
Rest: 60 seconds between sets
 
Workout 2
Sets: 3
Reps: 8
Rest: 90 seconds between sets
 
Workout 3
Sets: 2
Reps: 15
Rest: 120 seconds between sets
 
Sample workout week 1:

Monday - Workout 1
Chest - Flat bench 3x5
Back - Wide-Grip Pull-ups 3x5
Quads - Squats 3x5
Lower back/hips - Deadlifts 3x5
Skull Crushers 3x5
Calves 3x5
Rest: 60 seconds between sets

Tuesday - Cardio or OFF

Wednesday - Workout 2
Chest - Incline bench 3x8
Back - Barbell Rows 3x8
Quads - Squats 3x8
Lower back/hips - Deadlifts 3x8
Skull Crushers 3x8
Calves 3x8
Rest: 90 seconds between sets

Thursday - Abs/Cardio or OFF

Friday - Workout 3
Chest - Weighted Dips 2x15
Back - Barbell Rows 2x15
Quads - Squats 2x15
Lower back/hips - Deadlifts 2x15
Skull Crushers 2x15
Calves 2x15
Rest: 120 seconds between sets

Saturday - Abs/Cardio
Sunday - OFF

 
Week 2
Perform with the same parameters as Week 1, but execute antagonist training for all six exercises

Sample week 2

Monday - Workout 1
 
Superset 1
Chest...Back...rest, Chest...Back...rest, Chest...Back...rest,
Chest - Flat bench 3x5
Back - Wide-Grip Pull-ups 3x5

Superset #2
TRi..calf..rest, TRi..calf..rest, TRi..calf..rest
Skull Crushers 3x5
Calves 3x5

Superset #3 (ouch!)
Quads, lower back...rest, Quads, lower back...rest, Quads, lower back...rest
Quads - Squats 3x5
Lower back/hips - Deadlifts 3x5
Rest: 60 seconds between supersets

Tuesday - Cardio or OFF

Wednesday - Workout 2

Superset #1
Chest - Incline bench 3x8
Back - Barbell Rows 3x8

Superset #2
Quads - Squats 3x8
Lower back/hips - Deadlifts 3x8

superset #3
Skull Crushers 3x8
Calves 3x8
Rest: 90 seconds between supersets

Thursday - Abs/Cardio or OFF

Friday - Workout 3

Superset #1
Chest - Weighted Dips 2x15
Back - Barbell Rows 2x15

Superset#2
Quads - Squats 2x15
Lower back/hips - Deadlifts 2x15

Superset#3
Skull Crushers 2x15
Calves 2x15
Rest: 120 seconds between sets

Saturday - Abs/Cardio
Sunday - OFF


Week 3
 
Workout 1
Sets: 4
Reps: 5
Rest: 60 seconds between sets
 
Workout 2
Sets: 4
Reps: 8
Rest: 90 seconds between sets
 
Workout 3
 
Sets: 3
Reps: 15
Rest: 120 seconds between sets
 
Week 4
Perform the same parameters as Week 3, but execute antagonist training for all six exercises.
 
Week 5
 
Workout 1
Sets: 2
Reps: 18
Rest: 120 seconds between sets
 
Workout 2
 
Sets: 2
Reps: 8
Rest: 60 seconds between sets
 
Workout 3
 
Sets: 2
Reps: 12
Rest: 90 seconds between sets
 
Week 6
Perform the same parameters as Week 5, but execute antagonist training for all six exercises.
 
Week 7
 
Workout 1
Sets: 3
Reps: 18
Rest: 120 seconds between sets
 
Workout 2
 
Sets: 3
Reps: 8
Rest: 60 seconds between sets
 
Workout 3
 
Sets: 3
Reps: 12
Rest: 90 seconds between sets
 
Week 8
Perform the same parameters as Week 7, but execute antagonist training for all six exercises.
 

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He says choose a weight that takes me to failure at the last rep of the last set. Does this mean i use the same weight throughout the 3 sets?

If i did cardio as part of the off days, how long should i do it for?
And should i eat something before going for abs/cardio. Its ok to do cardio just by itself? cause i heard its best to to it after a workout to burn the fat. So should i do abs 1st or cardio.

And is it alright to take a break for 2 weeks? this week and next before i start on this program? Also, in a few weeks time i'll be going on holiday and i'm not sure if i can follow this programm strictly. Will this be detrimental to the plan?

This has got to be one of the better threads on here and it addresses quite a few questions about Dan's guide.

That being said, I have a question.

/not attempting to hijack the thread

Dan, would you suggest one of the three plans you linked to above for losing fat over the max-ot program?

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Good to hear other's need help =D i've been swarming this thread with questions non stop.

Dan, would you suggest one of the three plans you linked to above for losing fat over the max-ot program?

Yes.  Why?  I have to look at the OT program to be sure of this, but it pushes the boundaries of overtraining.  This is basically a hormonal state that does not favor fat loss.
 
Also, the program you want to do should ideally combine hypertrophy work with higher rep work to maximize muscle gains across all fiber types...
 

He says choose a weight that takes me to failure at the last rep of the last set. Does this mean i use the same weight throughout the 3 sets?

Choose a weight that forces you to near-failure for the last rep of the last set.
Yes.  however if you find you are stronger, then bump up to a more appropriate weight.
 

If i did cardio as part of the off days, how long should i do it for?

The name of the game is progression.  See my notes on cardio (including the link on cardio progression) in my Losing Fat / Gaining Mass threads.
 

And should i eat something before going for abs/cardio.

Yes that is in my threads when it says "for stand-alone cardio."
 

Its ok to do cardio just by itself?

Yes
 

cause i heard its best to to it after a workout to burn the fat.

Either first thing AM before a meal (take the PWO) or post workout are the most ideal fat burning times.
However, doing appropriate cardio at other times can burn some fat as well. 
Not as much as a bout of resistance training and 24 hours of rest and optimal meals will do.
 

 So should i do abs 1st or cardio.

Finish with abs
 

And is it alright to take a break for 2 weeks? this week and next before i start on this program?

ABOLUTELY!
Just eat right!
 

 Also, in a few weeks time i'll be going on holiday and i'm not sure if i can follow this programm strictly. Will this be detrimental to the plan?

Not at all!  Just eat right and have fun!
Come back and start with a week of low intensity training...then start up again.
Your results after a layoff will be fantastic.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

Dan, would you suggest one of the three plans you linked to above for losing fat over the max-ot program?

Yes.  Why?  I have to look at the OT program to be sure of this, but it pushes the boundaries of overtraining.  This is basically a hormonal state that does not favor fat loss.

Thanks.  I'll probably make some modifications to my current workout/diet and post back later.  Thanks again for all your help.

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Hi Dan ... spent quite a bit of time manually entering all my foodss into fitday for future reference ... it's giving me a better idea what I'm eating.

You mentioned that ideally to lose fat I should be consuming 25/50/25 (protein/carbs/fat).  Also, using the KM/HB formula, it says for a lightly active person I should consume 2889/3068 calories respectively.  So to lose weight I should consume 2311/2048 calories respectively.  I'm not sure what my body fat is, but I put 22% because I think that's somewhat accurate.

I've taken some time and I've created one days meal.  What do you think?

Meal 1 - 7:00am
Special K w/ berries
1 glass OJ

465 cals - 0 fat - 89 carbs - 9 protein

Meal 2 - 10:30am
Danon Light & Fit

60 cals - 0 fat - 10 carbs - 5 protein

Meal 3 - 12:30pm
PBJ

660 cals - 35 fat - 48 carbs - 24 protein

Meal 4 - 4:00pm
Special K Breakfast Bar

90 cals - 2 fat - 18 carbs - 1 protein

Meal 5 - 6:30pm
Chicken Breast Baked
Brown Rice (not sure what grain, how do I know?)
A little bit of BBQ sauce for flavor

1157 cals - 17 fat - 74 carbs - 148 protein

Total : 2612 cals - 59 fat - 295 carbs - 215 protein or 34/45/21 (protein/carbs/fat).

Overall, I'm right on % and calories wise, maybe a bit high on the calories.

However, I guess my day is ass backwards with my big meal at night, is this OK?  I welcome any suggestions.

I'm good with the workout plan, just always had problems with meals and nutrition. 

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spent quite a bit of time manually entering all my foodss into fitday for future reference ... it's giving me a better idea what I'm eating

 
Great work!!!!

You mentioned that ideally to lose fat I should be consuming 25/50/25 (protein/carbs/fat).

NO!!!
 
I gave that as a better starting point.  Every person has a unique chemistry adn the ideal ratio is different person to person!  You wil need to pay attention and experiment.
 

Also, using the KM/HB formula, it says for a lightly active person I should consume 2889/3068 calories respectively.  So to lose weight I should consume 2311/2048 calories respectively.  I'm not sure what my body fat is, but I put 22% because I think that's somewhat accurate.

 
First thing first....when the goal is fat loss, you should start at the higher end of your range for calories.
 
SEcond, if you are already eating a diet..start where you are!
 
Now that meal plan!!! 
Read my losing fat thread and look at the meal plan rules and example.
 
You should eat the best food choices you can ans focus on whole foods.
 
Rule #1 Every meal...
Lean Protein
Starchy Carb
Fibrous carb
 
Whole foods not processed.
 

Meal 1 - 7:00am
Special K w/ berries
1 glass OJ
465 cals - 0 fat - 89 carbs - 9 protein

No juice...thats like asking to store fat!
Processed cereal is the same!  Just sugar! 
This is not a complete meal
 
You also should have essential fats..like Fish Oil (purified-like carlson's)

Meal 2 - 10:30am
Danon Light & Fit
60 cals - 0 fat - 10 carbs - 5 protein

Milk prods are not ideal if the goal is fat loss
This is not a complete meal

Meal 3 - 12:30pm
PBJ

660 cals - 35 fat - 48 carbs - 24 protein

bread is not ideal if the goal is fat loss!
This is not a complete meal
How do you get 24 grams of protein!?

Meal 4 - 4:00pm
Special K Breakfast Bar

90 cals - 2 fat - 18 carbs - 1 protein

Breakfast bars are invitations to GAIN fat! 
This is not a complete meal
 

Meal 5 - 6:30pm
Chicken Breast Baked
Brown Rice (not sure what grain, how do I know?)
A little bit of BBQ sauce for flavor
1157 cals - 17 fat - 74 carbs - 148 protein

This is not a complete meal
Where is the vegetable?
Too much protein!


Total : 2612 cals - 59 fat - 295 carbs - 215 protein or 34/45/21 (protein/carbs/fat).
 
The ratio there is not good...but the calories are not bad...Start HIGER!!!!
 
Eating whole foods BURNS calories!!! and supports Building muscle...MUSCLE BURNS FAT
 
Muscle is THE PLACE in the body where fat is burned!
 
Sorry to rough it up..but I want you to get on the right path!!!
Why waste time.

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