Hardgainer strength routine

Below is a strength-oriented routine that I'm just starting after having some pretty good success with a more volume-based routine over the past few months.  Please take a look -- questions follow. 

Stats:  Hardgainer, 27 years old, 6' tall, weight in low 170s (up from mid 150s earlier this year).

M:  Chest
T:  Legs
W:  OFF
T:  Back
F:  Shoulders/Traps/Arms
S:  OFF
S:  OFF

All the exercises below are at 3 sets per exercise and 5-7 reps/set unless otherwise indicated.

CHEST:
Flat press (DB or BB)
Incline press (DB or BB)
Weighted leaning dips

LEGS:
Squats
Straight-leg deadlifts
Calf Raises

BACK:
Deadlifts
Weighted Pullups
Bent-over BB row

SHOULDERS/TRAPS/ARMS:
Military press (DB or BB)
Lateral raises (2 sets at 8-12 reps)
Shrugs (DB or BB) (10-12 reps)
BB curls (2-3 sets)
DB curls (1-2 sets)
Close-grip bench press (2-3 sets)
BB tricep extensions (1-2 sets)

Here are my questions/issues:

1.  For my size, I'm relatively strong in most upper body exercises (eg, in the above workout I would use 80-85 lb DBs for flat press, 95 lb BB for curls, 155 lbs for bent-over BB row, etc.).  But I'm pretty weak with squats and deadlifts.  In the above workout I would do only 155-185 for squats and around 185 for deadlifts.  So should I be doing more sets of those exercises, or is 3 sets of each per week enough?

2.  This program represents a very low volume of sets compared to what I used to be doing, but I've heard this is right for strength training.  Thoughts? 

3.  I really don't like having 2+ days off from lifting (as I do here on the weekends), but I understand that a strength routine is best limited to 3-4 workouts per week.  Any suggestions on how to change my split?

Any other comments/suggestions also appreciated.

Straight-leg deads on leg day and normal deads on back day doesn't really make sense to me. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Also maybe throw in some lunges or leg extensions on the leg day. Your volume seems pretty low for the type of split you are doing. How long do you spend lifting in the gym on those days? My legs are behind where they should be too if it makes you feel any better. I'm paying for neglecting them in previous incarnations of working out. When I maxed out a month ago I did more on the bench than on squats or deads. Pretty sad huh? :)

Age: 26 Height: 5'10
Weight as of 8/31/08: 160lbs.
Current weight: 180lbs.
Semi-Clean Bulkin!
Current Maxes as of 6/4/08:
Squat: 250lbs.
Deadlift: 255lbs.
Bench: 285lbs.

how are you expecting to get your chest stronger by working it 1 day a week, and then letting it sit for 6 days until you get back to it?  or any muscle group for that matter.

there are better splits you could do.

chest/biceps
legs/shoulders
back/triceps

^^  that's a split that might work and let you get around to working most muscle groups twice a week.

My name is FOX.... and I approve this message.

ORIGINAL: MDClifter

Straight-leg deads on leg day and normal deads on back day doesn't really make sense to me. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Also maybe throw in some lunges or leg extensions on the leg day. Your volume seems pretty low for the type of split you are doing. How long do you spend lifting in the gym on those days? My legs are behind where they should be too if it makes you feel any better. I'm paying for neglecting them in previous incarnations of working out. When I maxed out a month ago I did more on the bench than on squats or deads. Pretty sad huh? :)

I do straight-leg deads for hamstrings/glutes and normal deads for back (though of course they work a lot more than that).  I agree with you that the volume seems low.  I try to keep all workouts just under 1 hour.  And I'm right with you -- my max bench far exceeds my deads and squats.  I really want to start fixing that.

ORIGINAL: TheSilverFox

how are you expecting to get your chest stronger by working it 1 day a week, and then letting it sit for 6 days until you get back to it?  or any muscle group for that matter.

there are better splits you could do.

chest/biceps
legs/shoulders
back/triceps

^^  that's a split that might work and let you get around to working most muscle groups twice a week.

So you think I need to be hitting each muscle group more often than once a week?  I know there are competing theories on that (ie, traditional techniques vs. HST).  Personally I feel that I'm ready to go again on any given muscle group within 2-3 days after hitting it, no matter how many sets I do in the first workout.  So maybe I need to take your advice and increase volume over the course of the week. 

What do you think about the following split, which is similar to the one you suggest:

A:  Push (chest, shoulders, tri's)
B:  Legs
C:  Pull (back, traps, bi's)

Doing this 2 days on, 1 day off, so it would look like this:

A, B, off, C, A, off, B, C, off, etc.

From what I've seen traditional methods wasn't hit the muscle once per week with a 5 day routine that was advanced jucied up bodybuilders who brought that up.

The traditional method I thought was how the strongmen did it in the past before steriods came into the game. Wasn't it full body pretty much compound lifting every toehr day???

ORIGINAL: felonyr301

From what I've seen traditional methods wasn't hit the muscle once per week with a 5 day routine that was advanced jucied up bodybuilders who brought that up.

The traditional method I thought was how the strongmen did it in the past before steriods came into the game. Wasn't it full body pretty much compound lifting every toehr day???

I don't know what it was like in the past, but it seems like most trainers today advocate hitting each muscle group only once (or at most twice) per week.  That's regardless of whether you're juicing.  But compound lifting about every other day sounds good to me.  That's pretty much what I'm thinking above with my AB, CA, BC program.

ORIGINAL: MDClifter

Straight-leg deads on leg day and normal deads on back day doesn't really make sense to me. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

the way he has it is that correct way.

your split is ok except fridays.  put your biceps on chest day and tris with back or, chest/tris back/bis. another option shoulders/tris back/bis, or back/tri, shoulders/bis

heres a perfect routine for you basically using your same exercise but hits all muscle more then once a week with going overboard.

monday-flat bench, bent over rows, military press, skullcrusher, barbell curl
tuesday-squats, stiff leg deads, calf raises, abs
wednesday-incline press, pull ups, lat raises, close grip press, preacher curl
thursday-lunges, calf raises, shrugs, abs 
friday- dips, deads, military db press, overhead tri extension, inline db curl

you can also do a revolving split.  

day1 chest/bis
day2 back/shoulders
day2 legs/tris
day3 off
day4 off
day5 repeat day 1
day6 repeat day 2......

its good for hitting a muscle group with less rest time than once a week . 4 days of rest instead of 6. but gives more rest time then hitting a muscle group twice a week.  4 days instead of 2 or 3.

the only negative is that it gets confusing since you never work the same muscle group on the same day.  chest on monday this time then sunday then friday. 

ORIGINAL: xmax126


your split is ok except fridays.  put your biceps on chest day and tris with back or, chest/tris back/bis. another option shoulders/tris back/bis, or back/tri, shoulders/bis

heres a perfect routine for you basically using your same exercise but hits all muscle more then once a week with going overboard.

monday-flat bench, bent over rows, military press, skullcrusher, barbell curl
tuesday-squats, stiff leg deads, calf raises, abs
wednesday-incline press, pull ups, lat raises, close grip press, preacher curl
thursday-lunges, calf raises, shrugs, abs 
friday- dips, deads, military db press, overhead tri extension, inline db curl

you can also do a revolving split.  

day1 chest/bis
day2 back/shoulders
day2 legs/tris
day3 off
day4 off
day5 repeat day 1
day6 repeat day 2......

yep.. i agree with the revolving split routine you mentioned.  if you're insisting on doing isolation workouts.. the one he listed is good.

i like to put  my chest with biceps instead.

mine looks like this (when i did isolations)

1.) chest/biceps
2.) legs/shoulders
3.) back/triceps
4.) off
5.) repeat ^


either way.... that's a great split routine that hits your muscles more often and i feel that you will get much better progress this way instead of letting your muscles SIT for almost an entire week until you get back to hitting them again

My name is FOX.... and I approve this message.

Glad to hear that there's some consensus on going with the revolving split over the once-a-week split.  I'm definitely switching to that.  I've always felt intuitively that 7 days rest for each muscle group was too much.  Thanks for the suggestions.

But am I reading this right that you guys prefer full-body over isolation?  Is that based on the HST principles?

ORIGINAL: bmt2008

Glad to hear that there's some consensus on going with the revolving split over the once-a-week split.  I'm definitely switching to that.  I've always felt intuitively that 7 days rest for each muscle group was too much.  Thanks for the suggestions.

But am I reading this right that you guys prefer full-body over isolation?  Is that based on the HST principles?

i prefer FULL body routines over isolation workouts anyday.
for a couple of reasons...

1.) I have more time to myself.  workout 3 days a week.  4 days off.. and i see the same, if not BETTER results this way

2.)  You are working the muscle groups the SAME number of times per week, if not MORE than doing an isolation workout.

lets say you do isolation workouts...

so for chest, you do 2 sets of benching, and 3 or 4 different exercises.    
that ends up being 6 or 8 sets for chest, and lets say you do that twice in a week.  that's about 15 sets of chest exercises.

now... lets say you were to do a full body routine 3 times a week.
after some heavy compound lifting, you throw flatbench in your routine for 2 sets.
2 x 3 = 6 total sets for the week..

but i'm not done, what if you do DIPS as well in the FB routine??   2 sets x 3 times a week = another 6 total sets

so... that ends up being 12 sets total over an entire week.  ANDDDD, the best part is that you are causing microdamage more often on the muscle allowing for MORE growth... and less "sit around and wait for the next workout" time.

now please don't take that the wrong way.  i'm not saying you don't need rest/recovery time... but after 48 hours.. the muscle (this varies from person to person) is ready to go again.  it has healed and is ready for some more mircodamage.. a.k.a. LIFTING

this is why i like FULL body routines.  you get MORE bang, for your buck.  i feel like my time is well spent this way, and i feel absolutely amazing when i get done too knowing i've fatigued my entire body.

My name is FOX.... and I approve this message.

I agree full body is the way to go especially if your a beginner since beginners recover fast.

When you get to be an intermediate you can still do full body workouts but instead you can do something that is based of Bill Star's ideas where one day is work day, 2nd workout is light day, and last day I believe is less volume but trying to pass what you did last friday.

It takes a long time to be an intermediate longer than people think lol...

Yeah, I read on the HST website about how you get basically the same number of sets per muscle group over the course of the week as you would with isolation.  I agree that, at least for me, my muscles are ready to go again on the second and definitely third day after hitting them the first time.  Even though I've been lifting for about 4 years, I think my body is still in "beginner" mode because only in the past few months have a really cranked up the intensity and been consistent with nutrition.

I'm thinking about trying out full body sometime soon, but for now I think I'll try a revolving 3-day split as discussed above, either with a 3-on, 2-off system or a 2-on, 1-off system.  Reason being that I have a lot of free time at the moment and so I like lifting more often than 3 days per week (though I know I still need adequate rest).

that's cool mane.  whatever works for you

just as long as you get away from training 1 muscle and then leaving it for an entire week.. you'll be good to go

My name is FOX.... and I approve this message.

When you do the full body workouts with the necessary intensity you will love just lifting 3x a week!!! If you have alot more energy than your just not lifting right imo...