Getting lean

We seem to have a lot of members who are ectos/hardgainers who have a tendency towards being skinny, but who've managed, with effort, to pack on mass and have managed to keep their leanness.

My question is for those other members who didn't start out naturally lean. Both those who were overweight and managed to get in shape, as well as those who weren't necessarily overweight, but who still had to work to get lean.

I don't have any trouble gaining or losing scale weight at a regular, steady pace, but I just can't seem to get lean enough to actually look good, have abs, etc. I lost most of my excess fat without difficulty, but seem to hit a wall when I start getting down towards about 10% body fat. I can lose more weight, but I don't seem to get any leaner.

What are the keys to getting down those next few percent?

My Journal: Jheft's Heftorium

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." -- Mark Twain

jumprope

ORIGINAL: jheft


I don't have any trouble gaining or losing scale weight at a regular, steady pace, but I just can't seem to get lean enough to actually look good, have abs, etc. I lost most of my excess fat without difficulty, but seem to hit a wall when I start getting down towards about 10% body fat. I can lose more weight, but I don't seem to get any leaner.

What are the keys to getting down those next few percent?

im the same way.

theres a few things to do and i can almost gaurantee it will help u get where u want as long as u stick to it. first though whats ur current diet (calories and ratios) and how much cardio are u doing

I'm getting about 2600 calories per day, 25% from fat, about 180 grams of protein (usually a bit more, actually), and the remainder carbs. I avoid sugar as much as possible, outside the occasional cheat. I do about 30 minutes of medium intensity cardio (bike) after each lifting session (4 times a week). My bike is also my transportation to work, which is another 15 or so minutes a day.

My Journal: Jheft's Heftorium

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." -- Mark Twain

Right now I'm bulking but I've been doing a tabata routine one Tuesdays and Thursday.. only doing it with squats and Thrusters.. I haven't been doing it long enough to actually report how well it works but according to what I"ve read.. it's the most efficient way to lose fat with minimum muscle loss.. do a google on tabata..

Like I mentioned I'm only doing squats and thrusters.. 8 sets each.. the sets are 20 seconds maximum intensity.. then 10 seconds rest..and reapeat.. total 30 seconds = 1 set.. 8 sets per exercise.. sounds easy.. but it's a nightmare..

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

I have actualy dropped a few pounds just from cutting back on all the fatty things I used to eat plus working out..  In about three weeks I have dropped 4 pounds! Feels great.. I need to work on a diet though... Mine now is just pathetic...lol. 

Red PittBull's Log.

I don't know how your carbs are split up but that could be a lot of starch if it's all potatoes and bread. You could try to adjust your diet to include more fiberous carbs and less starches. You could also up your protein intake. You could also cut your calories down 100-200 a day. Those are some suggestions for changing up your diet.

As far as the workouts go some people can get lean through a little medium intensity cardio - others can't. If you think you're diet is solid try looking at your training. Maybe you should incorporate 2 days (or times far away from your lifting) for high intensity cardio. Your cardio sessions don't need to last as long as your medium cardio sessions but they should be of very high intensity.

If I were you I would give interval training a shot. Sprint on your bike for 30 seconds followed by 60 seconds of rest and do that circuit 6 times. It's only a 9 minute workout but I think you would benefit more from sprinting than from medium intensity cardio.

There are just a few ideas of ways to break through the 10% barrier. Let us know how you do and if you need more help.

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ORIGINAL: jheft

We seem to have a lot of members who are ectos/hardgainers who have a tendency towards being skinny, but who've managed, with effort, to pack on mass and have managed to keep their leanness.

My question is for those other members who didn't start out naturally lean. Both those who were overweight and managed to get in shape, as well as those who weren't necessarily overweight, but who still had to work to get lean.

I don't have any trouble gaining or losing scale weight at a regular, steady pace, but I just can't seem to get lean enough to actually look good, have abs, etc. I lost most of my excess fat without difficulty, but seem to hit a wall when I start getting down towards about 10% body fat. I can lose more weight, but I don't seem to get any leaner.

What are the keys to getting down those next few percent?

I'm in the same boat as you, I'm going to try some medium intensity cardio and lowering the carbs and upping the protein. Hopefully it works and if it doesn't ill drop 100-200 calories and adjust accordingly.

5'7" - 20 - 195lbs

ORIGINAL: jheft

I'm getting about 2600 calories per day, 25% from fat, about 180 grams of protein (usually a bit more, actually), and the remainder carbs. I avoid sugar as much as possible, outside the occasional cheat. I do about 30 minutes of medium intensity cardio (bike) after each lifting session (4 times a week). My bike is also my transportation to work, which is another 15 or so minutes a day.

ok i'll explain it here and just tell me if u have any questions, this is similar to what alot of BBers do and can get u very lean.

1. set ur diet to about 25-30% carbs, 45-50% protein, 20-30%fat
2. every 4th day have a carb up day with about 500 calories more than ur normal days and a ratio of 50c/30p/20f roughly
3. keep ur starchy carbs in the first 2-3 meals and more healthy fats and vegetables towards the last 3-4 meals of the day
4. taper ur calories down as the day goes on
5. thats the main diet part, if u lose too much weight/muscle than desired weekly than change the ratio of low carb to high carb days from 3:1 to 3:2    or just add carbs/calories in general (i prefer the first way)

**6. cardio is a huge tool and should be continously progressing, ur at 30min 4x per week now. whenever progress stalls u should progress (it could be increasing the intensity of all ur runs, increasing the length with no longer than 45min, or increasing the frequency). as long as u keep progressing u will keep losing fat


thats basically it, to help also cut out fruits, dairy, and other sugars. if u need anything cleared up just ask

MUahahahahah, that is all

i kid i kid

but as for not being able to go below that 10% or so bodyfat, i bet you are still losing bodyfat its just not noticeable since on parts of the body that actually do hide fat well, parts of the legs and chest.  The abs are the last to show so do not gauge how lean you are on your abs

ORIGINAL: rippedchick
I don't know how your carbs are split up but that could be a lot of starch if it's all potatoes and bread. You could try to adjust your diet to include more fiberous carbs and less starches. You could also up your protein intake. You could also cut your calories down 100-200 a day. Those are some suggestions for changing up your diet.

A large part of my carbs are bread (always whole grain), or other grains. Getting more veggies is an area that I can improve. I've managed to learn to eat lots of things I don't really like, and stopped eating lots of bad things that I really like. But I have a lot of trouble with veggies, and some of them I don't even digest very well. I'm losing weight at the right pace, so I don't want to cut my calories further.

As far as the workouts go some people can get lean through a little medium intensity cardio - others can't. If you think you're diet is solid try looking at your training. Maybe you should incorporate 2 days (or times far away from your lifting) for high intensity cardio. Your cardio sessions don't need to last as long as your medium cardio sessions but they should be of very high intensity.

I do switch up the cardio. I've been doing medium intensity for a couple weeks, and I'm gonna switch to high intensity for the next couple. At the end of my last cut I did HIIT, but it didn't seem to really do the trick, but I plan on trying it again after the two weeks of high intensity.

My Journal: Jheft's Heftorium

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." -- Mark Twain

Basically, if you have read any of my previous posts on this type of topic, I broke the 200 pound marker in 8th grade. (Bad!) This is what I did prior to having any nutrition/bodybuilding knowledge: Anorexia. I've never really told anyone that, but I figure I've poured my heart out in this place, so what the hell. Anyway, I did that for an entire summer which I lived on 2 rice crispie treats, maybe a bagel, and a chicken for dinner of some kind. That was a typical day, and I lost maybe 15 pounds over 2 months, which isn't alot but made a big difference. Then 9th grade, followed a similar path but not as extreme. By 10th grade I started lifting, and then I understood what to do. Going from 200, All fat, to approx 166, BF 10-11% now, I've got a good idea, and heres what your looking for, I think:
 
My Daily Diet:
 
6 30 am-Coffee, 2 scoops of whey, whey muffin(My own recipe)
 
12:00 pm-Turkey on whole wheat, almonds, water, whey muffin
 
3:00 pm No Xplode
 
4:30 pm 2 scoops of whey
 
6:00 pm-Chicken/Beef, with a vegetable, whey muffin, and a carb of some kind.
 
That's it, essentially only 3 meals a day, and call it 4 if you include the post-workout shake. I dont do 6 meals, only 3-4 and it's working just fine. Heres the fun part though:
 
Cardio Routine:
 
Either HIIT or Lacrosse Shooting, all after lifting.(For you HIIT)
 
-Monday
-Wednesday
-Thursday
-Friday
Optional Saturday
-Sunday
 
5 days of HIIT, and 6 if you feel special and go saturday. I sometimes go 6, usually 5 though.
 
Tips I've found work: Dont eat anything after 8:00 pm, limit dairy intake, obviously no **** foods(candy, fast food), and I am contemplating using creatine for strength but I probably wont because I have a fear of losing the six-pack, therefore I dont reccomend it.
 
Good luck Jheft, hopefully I helped with this really long, detailed, and most likely boring for some post.

Current Supplements: Multi, Whey, Caffeine, BCAA, Vitamin C, Calcium
Current Cycle: Strength

"Do not go where the path may lead, instead go where there is no path, and leave a trail."

see my contest journal..........fitness/figure 07, its all layed out.
Linda

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Thanks, I'll take a look at that.

My Journal: Jheft's Heftorium

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." -- Mark Twain

wow jheft, just looking at ur sig.   ur bench went up 40lb. is 5 weeks??

ORIGINAL: David1991
wow jheft, just looking at ur sig. ur bench went up 40lb. is 5 weeks??

Sorta. The 120 was a week or two before I started IBB's program, but it was the most recent max I had prior to starting the program. And part of the improvement was probably just from getting more comfortable benching with the barbell, because it jumped up more quickly the first couple weeks. But I'm still adding 5 pounds a week at this point, which is pretty satisfying... I'm doing actual sets at 130 now, which I could hardly lift at all when I started. On the other hand, when I was working on my deadlifts, I added 60 pounds in 6 weeks, so it could be better!

My Journal: Jheft's Heftorium

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." -- Mark Twain

I'm still lagging at around 10% bodyfat, and my HST routine's screwing me over. I kinda blame myself because I'm not as loyal with my cardio plan as I'd hoped.
I've taken about a week off and I start back on cutting on Monday.

Can someone explain to me something about HIIT?
I know HIIT has a lot of benefits and raises your metabolism etc... But, I've also come to the realisation that HIIT doesn't burn as many calories as medium or low intensity cardio.

Think about it.
The general law of losing fat is having a higher caloric expenditure over your caloric intake, I don't think HIIT is ideal for losing bodyfat because:
-It's too short, therefore you don't expend as many calories.
-Because it's at such a very high level of intensity it has a much higher chance of burning lean mass.

With medium/low intensity cardio you can last A LOT longer and therefore expend much more calories of bodyfat.

No doubt HIIT's great but for the goal of losing bodyfat, I don't think it's the ideal option.
I wanna hear other arguments because atm I'm under the impression that one guy used an argument about HIIT being better for you then everyone listened to them and told other people, etc... Until everyone had false knowledge and were given the wrong advice.

I know this can't be right because there are several professionals on here who preach HIIT.
So please, by all means; Prove me wrong.

i was reading body for life, and it states that high intense cardio for a short amount of time really increases metabolism, as you shouldnt look at how many calories you are burning during the workout but afterwards, and also that doing cardio for a long time will cause u to lose muscle tissue.

ORIGINAL: Wyrms

I'm still lagging at around 10% bodyfat, and my HST routine's screwing me over. I kinda blame myself because I'm not as loyal with my cardio plan as I'd hoped.
I've taken about a week off and I start back on cutting on Monday.

Can someone explain to me something about HIIT?
I know HIIT has a lot of benefits and raises your metabolism etc... But, I've also come to the realisation that HIIT doesn't burn as many calories as medium or low intensity cardio.

Think about it.
The general law of losing fat is having a higher caloric expenditure over your caloric intake, I don't think HIIT is ideal for losing bodyfat because:
-It's too short, therefore you don't expend as many calories.
-Because it's at such a very high level of intensity it has a much higher chance of burning lean mass.

With medium/low intensity cardio you can last A LOT longer and therefore expend much more calories of bodyfat.

No doubt HIIT's great but for the goal of losing bodyfat, I don't think it's the ideal option.
I wanna hear other arguments because atm I'm under the impression that one guy used an argument about HIIT being better for you then everyone listened to them and told other people, etc... Until everyone had false knowledge and were given the wrong advice.

I know this can't be right because there are several professionals on here who preach HIIT.
So please, by all means; Prove me wrong.

actually ur right, HIIT is great while bulking and for the really busy guy who has no time to run but almost all bodybuilders follow a plan of 5+ cardio sessions a week of about 30min-1 hour at a  medium to hard intensity but keeping it constant (not intervals) when it comes time to get really lean

ORIGINAL: Wyrms
-It's too short, therefore you don't expend as many calories.
-Because it's at such a very high level of intensity it has a much higher chance of burning lean mass.

Well, the theory is that HIIT creates such a stress on your body that for the next 12-18 hours, you burn more fat than usual while recovering. And since you aren't working at high intensity for very long, you don't have time to burn very much lean mass, as compared to medium or low intensity cardio, where you aren't burning lean mass at a high rate, but you're doing it for so much longer that it adds up.

So far I haven't exactly been smitten with the fat burning power of any type of cardio. I've lost another pound this week, but it appears to all be lean mass.

My Journal: Jheft's Heftorium

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." -- Mark Twain

isnt the best way to reduce bodyfat without losing muscle mass, long low intensity (aka able to have a conversation during) cardio such as walking on a considerable incline?

ORIGINAL: Soccerking3000

isnt the best way to reduce bodyfat without losing muscle mass, long low intensity (aka able to have a conversation during) cardio such as walking on a considerable incline?

no. like i said the best way to preserve muscle would probablly be HIIT but if ur looking for the best combo of conserving muscle and losing alot of fat have a protein shake (just protein) before ur run and do steady state cardio for 30-60min. (continually progressing with length, frequency, and intensity as needed)

i thought carbs/protien were used for short bursts of energy while fat stores are used for long endurance type movements ect.  ohh well it doesnt directly affect me i guess.  

ORIGINAL: Soccerking3000

i thought carbs/protien were used for short bursts of energy while fat stores are used for long endurance type movements ect.  ohh well it doesnt directly affect me i guess.  

exactly, HIIT would be short bursts so its good for overall calories and an "afterburn" effect however going 30-60 min. of steady state cardio will result in more overall calories burnt and more fat used

I'm sure HIIT works well but I think it's popularity probably has something to do with not spending hours upon hours on a treadmill ;)

ORIGINAL: Soccerking3000

isnt the best way to reduce bodyfat without losing muscle mass, long low intensity (aka able to have a conversation during) cardio such as walking on a considerable incline?

 
 
Cardio doesn't burn fat.  Cardio's pupose is written in it's name, just to exercise the heart for the purpose of the heart, lungs, and circulation.
 
The best way to reduce bodyfat or cut is done completly in the kitchen.

Recent Maxes.

Barbell Bench Press - 265 lbs.
Barbell Military Press - 187 lbs.
Barbell Squat - 340 lbs.
Barbell Deadlift - 362 lbs.

ORIGINAL: Rex 22

ORIGINAL: Soccerking3000

isnt the best way to reduce bodyfat without losing muscle mass, long low intensity (aka able to have a conversation during) cardio such as walking on a considerable incline?

Cardio doesn't burn fat.  Cardio's pupose is written in it's name, just to exercise the heart for the purpose of the heart, lungs, and circulation.

The best way to reduce bodyfat or cut is done completly in the kitchen.

Umm, many good points and it should be thought of more to exercise the heart than a fat burning tool but the bold/underlined/oversized part is WRONG on many levels.
Progressive cardio is the biggest help in burning bodyfat especially for endomorphs, alongside good eating habits of course.

Jheft, honestly I think you need a lot more muscle mass before you should worry about cutting.  You will look much more lean at 10% bodyfat (even at 13%) with a lot more muscle.  You said that you want to bulk up to 200 then cut back down to 180 - 185 right?  I'd suggest that you bulk up to about 220 at least then worry about cutting. 
 
Too much fat is definately not the problem though IMHO.

This thread is old. I will be doing a long-term bulk as soon as I get back from vacation.

@Rex 22: There is a virulent strain of ignorance running through every single one of your posts, without exception. I'm blocking you to minimize the risk of transmission.

My Journal: Jheft's Heftorium

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." -- Mark Twain

I didn't realize that this thread was over a month old.  I still agree with myself though, lol.