Get more Strenth, More Muscle and More Leanness!

What I am going to say is based on scientific research. 
There are repeated studies that support this information.
Some of you may know this and may put it into practice...most probably do not.

I will quote 3 trials as reported by Cribb, P., Ph. D.

You can get MORE Strength and More Muscle and Decrease Fat Faster
compared to average supplement practices.

I know, sounds like a stupid supplement commercial. 
Well, this is nothing special you have to buy...just simple adjustment in how and when you do simple things!

How?
Optimal Supplementation and Meal Timing

Lets compare the finding of the average supplementation practice to the optimal supplementation practice...then I will sum it all up.

Trial #3

Meal Timing vs Not Meal Tming
Meal timing compared taking a protein/carbohydrate supplement "any time" compared to taking the same supplement "30 minutes pre and immediatly post" workout.  These were resistance training workouts.

Here are the actual findings from the two groups:
("+" = increase from pre trial / "-" = decrease from pre trial )
Based on measures taken before and after 10 weeks following Max-OT and the given protocol.

 "supplement any time"
Bench Strength = +9kg
Squat Strength= +17kg
Deadlift Strength= +17kg
Type I Muscle   +350
Type II Muscle   +800
Type IIx Muscle   +800
Contractile Protein measure: 18
Lean Mass +1.5
Fat Mass +0.25

supplement "30 minutes pre and immediatly post workout"
Bench Strength= +13kg
Squat Strength= +20kg
Deadlift Strength= +20kg
Type I Muscle   +450
Type II Muscle   +1200
Type IIx Muscle  +1200
Contractile Protein measure: 30 
Lean Mass +2.75
Fat Mass -0.25

Compared to the "supplement any time"  here is what the "30 minutes pre and immediatly post workout" group experienced
Strength 23% more
+ Muscle 46-83% more
- Fat loss  +-100% more

Would you want to gain 23% more strength, gain 60% more muscle and lose fat?

Here is what they did:
30 minutes before and immediatly after training they consumed a supplement equal to:
Whey Protein 0.18 grams per pound of bodyweight
Carbohydrate 0.2 grams per pound of bodyweight
Creatine Monohydrate at about .03 grams per pound of bodyweight (about 1/4 teaspoon per 40 pounds)

175 pound person consumed
protein 32 grams
Carbs 35 grams
Creatine Monohydrate 5.25 grams


Trial #2 and #1 to follow!

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that sounds awesome and i for one will take that into practice

Now on to Trial 1 and 2

These two were performed before Trail 3 and led to the question, "Does it matter what time we take the supplement to get the results we want?"

It doesn't take a genius to see that benefit in the strength gains, fat loss, muscle gain, total muscle increase of each fraction of muscle, and increase in muscle protein that resulted from the Protein-Carbohydrate-creatine combination are significant compared to carbohydrate alone, protein alone and even carbohydrate/creatine and protein/creatine!
 
Trial 1

Trial 1 looked at the results experienced by 4 groups after 11 weeks

Cho - carbohydrate
Cho+Cr- carbohydrate + Creatine Monohydrate
WP - Whey protein
Wp+Cr - Whey protein + Creatine Monohydrate

Cho
Bench increase= +5kg
Pulldown increase= = +5kg
Squat increase= = +7kg
Type I Muscle   +100
Type II Muscle   +250
Type IIx Muscle  +250
Lean Mass +.75kg
Contractile Protein measure:7

Cho+Cr
Bench increase= +20kg
Pulldown increase= = +17kg
Squat increase= = +30kg
Type I Muscle   +600
Type II Muscle   +950
Type IIx Muscle  +850 
Lean Mass +3.75kg
Contractile Protein measure:27

WP
Bench increase= +20kg
Pulldown increase= = +17kg
Squat increase= = +30kg
Type I Muscle   +300
Type II Muscle   +700
Type IIx Muscle  +600
Lean Mass +2.25kg
Contractile Protein measure:18

Wp+Cr
Bench increase= +22kg
Pulldown increase= = +22kg
Squat increase= = +35kg
Type I Muscle   +800
Type II Muscle   +1100
Type IIx Muscle  +950
Lean Mass 3.5kg
Contractile Protein measure:27

What do we see?

Strength
10%, 30%, and 16% greater increases with the WP-Cr as compared to WP or Cho-Cr!

Muscle fiber increase
33%+, 15%+, 11%+ greater increase with the WP-Cr as compared to WP or Cho-Cr!

Lean Mass increase
66%+ greater increase with the WP-Cr or Cho-Cr as compared to WP or Cho!

Contractile Protein Increases
50%+ greater increase with the WP-Cr or Cho-Cr as compared to WP or Cho!

Trial 2
Trial 2 looked at the results experienced by 3 groups after 8 weeks

Protein
Protein-Carbohydrate
Creatine-Protein-Carbohydrate

Protein
Bench increase= +12kg
Pulldown increase= = +12kg
Squat increase= = +25kg
Type I Muscle   +300
Type II Muscle   +600
Type IIx Muscle  +600
Lean Body Mass +5kg
Fat Mass -2kg
Contractile Protein measure:20

Protein-Carbohydrate
Bench increase= +8kg
Pulldown increase= = +12kg
Squat increase= = +22kg
Type I Muscle   +400
Type II Muscle   +750
Type IIx Muscle  +625
Lean Body Mass +4kg
Fat Mass +2kg
Contractile Protein measure:20

Creatine-Protein-Carbohydrate
Bench increase= +23kg
Pulldown increase= = +18kg
Squat increase= = +34kg
Type I Muscle   +500
Type II Muscle   +1375
Type IIx Muscle  +950
Lean Body Mass +7kg
Fat Mass -1kg
Contractile Protein measure:32

What do we see?
 
Strength Increases
90%+, 50%, and 36% greater increase with Cr+WP+Cho compared to WP+Cho and WP

Lean Body Mass increases
40% greater increase with Cr+WP+Cho compared to WP+Cho and WP

Muscle fraction increases
66%+, 80%+, and 52%+ greater increase with Cr+WP+Cho compared to WP+Cho and WP

Contractile Protein increase
60% greater increase with Cr+WP+Cho compared to WP+Cho and WP

Fat mass
WP outperformed Cr+WP+Cho, while WP+Cho gave a negative result

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What is important about these trials is that they were performed with normal resistance training (trainers included) designed with the goal to increase strength and muscle hypertrophy.
 
 

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I find the trial 2 results very interesting.  I think I can explain though. 
 
Just protein promoted lean mass and a fat loss because of the lack of a high glycemic carb.  This would lead to less calories (unless they were all on the same calorie diet).  Also, without and insulin spike they would be less likely to store fat.
 
Protein plus high glycemic carb resulted in more calories, thus more fat.  Also, the insulin spike could have led to more fat storage.  In my experience I agained the most fat when clyling of creatine and just doing dextrose and whey.
 
Protein plus carb plus creatine would give more lean mass gains due to the volumizing effect of creatine.  I really can't explain the fat loss though.
 
This is what I think, but I by no means think I am 100% right or anything.  What do you think Dan?  You are the master.
 
 

Just protein promoted lean mass and a fat loss because of the lack of a high glycemic carb.  This would lead to less calories (unless they were all on the same calorie diet). 

They all supplement with the isocaloric or same caloric supplements. So that narrows it down to the thermic effect of protein and, as you noticed, the lower glycemic effect.
 

Also, without and insulin spike they would be less likely to store fat.

Just a note...insulin is an anabolic hormone!  That is a plus for the bulking phase!!!
Insulin is also spiked by taking protein  though not as much as with carbs.
 
So, though the insuline effect is there, it is also likely to do with the TYPE of calories consumed and carbs being more easily converted to fat.
 

Protein plus carb plus creatine would give more lean mass gains due to the volumizing effect of creatine.  I really can't explain the fat loss though.

Partly.
 
They measured specific muscle fiber so the volumizing effect does not account for total increase.
 
There is also an increase in actual muscle contractile protein.  We also know that volumizing muscle increases the passage of nutrients into the muscle, thus increasing growth and recovery potential.  Additionally, the buffering effect of creatine insures a less acidic environment...which is a more growth supportive environment!
 
In fact, we now know that creatine stimulates the growth of new muscle fiber stem cells when combined with intense weight training.
 

Protein plus carb plus creatine would give more lean mass gains due to the volumizing effect of creatine.  I really can't explain the fat loss though.

As for fat loss...more intense training is one key to ongoing fat loss.  Creatine allows more intense training through faster between set recovery...

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I don't understand how protein and a carbohyrdate would generate less muscle than protein alone. 

You refering to trial 2?
I agree.
 
In almost all other trials and all other instances it is more like trial 1...
 
WP
Bench increase= +20kg
Pulldown increase= = +17kg
Squat increase= = +30kg
Type I Muscle   +300
Type II Muscle   +700
Type IIx Muscle  +600
Lean Mass +2.25kg
Contractile Protein measure:18

Wp+Cr
Bench increase= +22kg
Pulldown increase= = +22kg
Squat increase= = +35kg
Type I Muscle   +800
Type II Muscle   +1100
Type IIx Muscle  +950
Lean Mass 3.5kg
Contractile Protein measure:27

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hmmm I might do something with this..

A post work out shake may help me out alot.. I usually eat all day and because of my schedule I end up eating just before the gym too then 2 hours after the gym.. But I wonder If I can sneak a shake in right after the work out soo:

5:30 - Cottage cheese + Fruit + Pasta
6:15 - Gym
7:15 - Protein shake <--- added in
8:00 - dinner - Chicken + Rice + Greens
10:00 - Protein shake

I know my diet falls really close to work outs but its for a reason... Drive time and work slows me down my last meal is at 1:00 then I don't start back up again until 5:30 So thats 4 hours of time that I don't eat..

Your pre-workout nutrition could use some protein...maybe.
 
Post workout if you are going for the gains...add a high GI carb.  Blueberries, banana, grapes, raisins...
 
4-1/2 hours?  Maaaaaan...just get some raw organic almonds at 3 hours to cover your arse!
 
That last protein shake...hmmmmm

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

Your pre-workout nutrition could use some protein...maybe.

Post workout if you are going for the gains...add a high GI carb.  Blueberries, banana, grapes, raisins...

4-1/2 hours?  Maaaaaan...just get some raw organic almonds at 3 hours to cover your arse!

That last protein shake...hmmmmm

 
Well I did not post everything... I eat a **** load of food.. that was only the end of the day
 
6:00 - Oatmeal + bannana
10:30 - Turkey Sandwich + Chips + Cheese Stick
1:00 - home made enchalada <-- example - Rice + Chicken
5:30 - Cottage cheese + Fruit + Pasta
6:15 - Gym
7:15 - Protein shake <--- added in
8:00 - dinner - Chicken + Rice + Greens
10:00 - Protein shake
 
 
See that laps of time in the middle there.. I just added in your protein shake today.. But without that picture it.. it is not horrible but I do hate that laps of time thats why I think your protein shake post work out before dinner might do a bit of help.. although it is not giving me enough time to digest between the post work out shake and dinner.
 
But anyways I hope you did not think I was posting my whole diet lol

But anyways I hope you did not think I was posting my whole diet lol

LOL.  No I understood!
 
I will give my running thoughts on your diet as a whole...
 

6:00 - Oatmeal + bannana

Protein?

10:30 - Turkey Sandwich + Chips + Cheese Stick

You know chips and bread are not quality carbs.
Veggies with that?
 

1:00 - home made enchalada <-- example - Rice + Chicken

Veggies with that?  The veggies make the nutrients last and supply nutrients for a longer period.  THey also help keep an alkalyn envirnment.

5:30 - Cottage cheese + Fruit + Pasta

Is there enough protein in the meal?

6:15 - Gym
7:15 - Protein shake <--- added in

Since this is a powder and pre digested, if you add some carbs and stick to the 0.1 gram protein and 0.2 gram carbs/pound of body weight...it should be gone into the muscle in 1 hour! 

8:00 - dinner - Chicken + Rice + Greens

Excellent
 

10:00 - Protein shake

Trouble with this is it has no staying power...try fish/sweet potato/salad or something...at 11:00?  Plus it stimulates dopamine and may inhibit sleep patterns from being optimal.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

But anyways I hope you did not think I was posting my whole diet lol

LOL.  No I understood!

I will give my running thoughts on your diet as a whole...

6:00 - Oatmeal + bannana

Protein?  Oh sorry bro I do have a protein shake here! I forgot to add that

10:30 - Turkey Sandwich + Chips + Cheese Stick

You know chips and bread are not quality carbs.
Veggies with that? Hmm I guess I can replace with edimami how ever you spell it... its like soy beans.

1:00 - home made enchalada <-- example - Rice + Chicken

Veggies with that?  The veggies make the nutrients last and supply nutrients for a longer period.  THey also help keep an alkalyn envirnment. Damn not sure what kind of veggies to throw in here.. your killing me dan lol..

5:30 - Cottage cheese + Fruit + Pasta

Is there enough protein in the meal? Yeah cottage cheese 15 grams of protein + 10 - 20 grams from the pasta

6:15 - Gym
7:15 - Protein shake <--- added in

Since this is a powder and pre digested, if you add some carbs and stick to the 0.1 gram protein and 0.2 gram carbs/pound of body weight...it should be gone into the muscle in 1 hour!Thanks Dan! :) So maybe throw in some fruit? a banana? something?

8:00 - dinner - Chicken + Rice + Greens

Excellent

10:00 - Protein shake

Trouble with this is it has no staying power...try fish/sweet potato/salad or something...at 11:00?  Plus it stimulates dopamine and may inhibit sleep patterns from being optimal.
Dang I don't like sweet potatoes but umm a salad would work here.. I am going to have to get alot more salad.

 
My bad about the first meal I totally forgot to add that.. my other meal is pretty cool for protein but im going to have to add in alot more veggies like you said.. Also work on my last meal of the day.

7:15 - Protein shake <--- added in
So maybe throw in some fruit? a banana? something?

Yep, perfect!
 

10:30 - Turkey Sandwich + Chips + Cheese Stick

You know chips and bread are not quality carbs.
Veggies with that? Hmm I guess I can replace with edimami how ever you spell it... its like soy beans.

 
Edemame is a starch...not a fibrous veggie.
Celery sticks, red pepper slices...?
 

1:00 - home made enchalada <-- example - Rice + Chicken
Veggies with that?  The veggies make the nutrients last and supply nutrients for a longer period.  THey also help keep an alkalyn envirnment. Damn not sure what kind of veggies to throw in here.. your killing me dan lol..

Broccoli, cauliflower, zuccini, dinosaur kale, chard...???
 

Dang I don't like sweet potatoes but umm a salad would work here.. I am going to have to get alot more salad.

I bake them in the skin until they are soft all the way through.
But you can have a salad with tomato, corn and peas (all starches!) 
 
MMMM salmon and salad, yummy

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thanks bro ill incorperate that into the diet.. seems my protein is almost sufficient but lack of carbs and veggies may make it hard for my body to digest. 

    Hey dan, i'm taking a mass shake with two scoops that is 90 Carb and 30 Protein each - plus 3 teaspoon of skim milk (13 protein) - that makes 118 carb and 44 protein pre workout, which I drink about 45 min-1 hour before to digest... And post workout the same plus 1 scoop whey of 23g. Can I expect the same results?

I'm 200 lbs, by the way!

Strategy and what works is based on goal.
 
Are you gaining mass or leaning?
Skip the milk pre and post to speed it up.
30-45 minutes is ideal window.
 
Look at the amount of protein: carbs!

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    Oh, yes - I'm bulking right now. What about the amounts ?
And milk... what's wrong if it ? I never had any problem at all. But I never understood why I heard often of not drinking milk around workout... can you clarify about it ?

AND the amount is small ?

And milk... what's wrong if it ? I never had any problem at all. But I never understood why I heard often of not drinking milk around workout... can you clarify about it ?

Fat and casein are slow release and can slow the other nutrient's availability.
There is nothing wrong with it, we are talking about optimizing the response!!!
 

What about the amounts ?

You do the math.
 
Here is what they did:
30 minutes before and immediatly after training they consumed a supplement equal to:
Whey Protein 0.18 grams per pound of bodyweight
Carbohydrate 0.2 grams per pound of bodyweight
Creatine Monohydrate at about .03 grams per pound of bodyweight (about 1/4 teaspoon per 40 pounds)

 
 

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    Thank you Dan.

Health is always a controversial topic... Muscle Nerd from OA said to take 30 gram of fat post workout to increase testosterone - is this really true ? It's confusing - the bodybuilder wants testosterone or quicker absorbing ?

Faster absorption.
 
Your OVERALL diet should have about 30%+- fats from good sources to support ONGOING hormone production.  It better already be in the system by the time you train buddy.  Cause if you take high fat post workout...it still has to be processed to convert it to the forms that can then be converted to hormone precursors.
 
The science shows that the pre/post workout nutrition above is the most anabolic that we know of.  Should someone show that the addition of fats in the post workout improves it further...then I will rave about that.  However, to my knowledge, nobody has shown that.  I keep looking.

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Hey Dan, currently I'm leaning up and losing bodyfat, yet attempting to maintain if not add more lean mass. 
 
I may not have given you enough info, but even though I'm leaning... do I still want to add the creatine?  Or is the whey by itself pre and post workout better for leaning?

Creatine while leaning...YES!
 
If you are preparing for a photo shoot or need to make a weight...you need to give yourself 6 weeks for the Creatine to clear the system and be totally shredded from an intra muscular water standpoint.

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Hey Dan,
    
     Does the same creatine/protein/carb formula apply for offday? 
Meaning... do I continue to use the creatine on the off days?  Or do
I skip the creatine and keep the rest of the diet the same?

Does the same creatine/protein/carb formula apply for offday?

WE were discussing pre and post workout nutrition.
 
By definition you do not train on an off day....therefore this is not specific to nutrition on off days.
 
That said!
 
Creatine is systemic.  Meaning Your ability to benefit from creatine is based on the maximum amount of creatine that the body accepts to store in the system...NOT on what you supplement with.  It is related only in an indirect fashion. 
 
Supplementation increases the maximum amount accepted to be stored in the system, gradually over time.
If you stop Creatine supplementation you gradually lower the maximum amount accepted.
If you alter Creatine supplementation, say to every training day only, you alter the maximum amount accepted in a downward direction.
 
There is a maximum amount above which supplementation will not raise the amount stored in the system.
Meaning "more is not better" above the maximum amount to maintain optimal creatine stores.
 
The actual optimal supplementation scheme is slightly different from person to person, but it is sufficient to say that you should strive to take it at least 5-6 days a week.
 
OK?

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Thanks for your advice Dan.

Hey Dan, I weigh 186 lbs, and I want to incorporate the pre and post workout eating habits you suggested, so should I be taking 5 grams of creatine pre and post workout, is 10 grams a day too much?  Also I was curious what would be good sources for pre and post workout carbs?  Reading this thread through gave me so many questions.  I was thinking I could start taking half a ON Pro Complex shake pre  and the other half post workout but it is a complex protein, is it important that it be a 100% whey?  Do you think you could lay out a sample pre and post workout meals?  Thanks for all the help.

You do the math.

Here is what they did for these results:
30 minutes before and immediatly after training they consumed a supplement equal to:
Whey Protein 0.18 grams per pound of bodyweight
Carbohydrate 0.2 grams per pound of bodyweight
Creatine Monohydrate at about .03 grams per pound of bodyweight (about 1/4 teaspoon per 40 pounds)

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On the lable of my creatine (Six Star Muscle Fuel) the serving size is 1 rounded scoop (57g), and thats what i have been taking for 5 months,with the new info you have given, i should be taking 6.9g's.Has the excess done any harm? Should i take some time off  from the creatine to clean out my body, then start back on it ?
                               Thanks in advance
                                    Trick

I refuse to fail !!

That is 57 grams of product, not 57 grams of creatine.  There are some 6 grams of creatine in there.  My opinion of the supplement in question, though not asked, is that it is overpriced and hyped.  You would be better served and pay far less to take the creatine as a straight Creatine Monohydrate. 
 
If you want to take L-Arganine as well, then you can also find that and take it before bed so as not to conflict with any anabolic effects of training (which it will if taken before, during or after training.)  The amount in the product is not enough (1/4) to make up the recommended dosage.
 
If you want the taurine, again you would be better getting it singly and taking it.  Though your pre and post workout nutrition should cover the taurine intake.
 
Six Star Muscle Fuel - $20 for 20 servings
Calories 170 
Total Carbohydrate 42g 14%*
Sugars 42g †
Calcium 70mg 7%
Sodium(as Di-Sodium Phosphate) 25mg 1%
 
HyperPure Creatine Complex™ 6000mg †
Creatine Monohydrate  †
Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL  †
Creatine Alpha-Ketoglutarate  †
Creatine Anhydrous  †
Tri-Creatine HCA  †

Anabolic Cofactor™ 2002mg †
Taurine  †
Taurine Ethyl Ester HCL  †
Taurine Ketoisocaproic Acid Calcium  †

Nitric Oxide Activator™ 1002mg †
L-Arginine  †
L-Arginine Alpha-Ketoglutarate  †
Arginine Ketoisocaproic Acid  †

Accelerated Insulin Drive™  222mg †
6, 8-Thioctic Acid  †
L-Citrulline  †
L-Leucine  †
D-Pinitol††  †
 
* Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000 calorie diet
† Daily Value not established
Other Ingredients
Laboratory-Grade Dextrose, Citric Acid, Calcium Silicate, Natural And Artificial Flavors, Gum Blend(Modified Food Starch, Gum Acacia, Titanium Dioxide, Tri-Calcium Phosphate, Xanthan Gum, Citric Acid), FD&C Red #40, Sucralose, Acesulfame Potassium
 
Thioctic Acid = Alpha Lipoic Acid (ALA)
Pinitol - shown to stimulate glucose uptake in clinical trials at a certain dosage.
Citrulline - anti-oxidant, boosts effect of L-Arganine

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