Frustrations with Chinups and Developing the V

Guys,
   What is the secret to doing chinups to develop the lats V taper?  I'm on an HST training program now for a week and have been doing 15 rep sets.  On the chinup I can get 10 reps out good to okay, and then 11 to 15 are just garbage.  I weigh 195 and am using 52 lb of assistance.  Should I add more assistance so the 15th rep is good, or are rest pauses okay?  I hate to assist too much and have the first 10 reps be easy but maybe that's what I should do.  Is it normal for 15 rep max weight to be drastically lower than 10 rep max weight?  Also is there a secret to developing the V and getting to the point of doing bodyweight chins?  Is several times a day to failure okay?  I have a chinup bar rigged up in the basement so I could do that.  Thanks!

You should forget about using the pullup machine to aid in doing pullups IMO. How many can you do without the machine's resistance taking off xx LBs?

"When your strength gains plateau, if you been training exclusively for limit strength/power, you'll need usable muscle mass to progress further."

The "V" in your back is developed traps. You'll need a defined and strong back. Just focus on increasing the weight you use with your pullups and maybe add some shrugs or something in. Rows, deadlifts, pullups, face pulls, and shrugs should definitely do it for you.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I would say about 5 respectable ones then quickly downhill.

Man, if you figure this one out, I'll buy the secret off you 

Just kidding.  Maybe it's just the "lift as heavy as humanly possible even if you can only get three lousy reps out of it" voice in my head, but something is telling me you should ditch the assist completely and let the chips fall where they may.  But take that with a grain of creatine -I don't have that taper either.

However, one thing I have noticed lately is a lot of increased thickness and a little extra width in the top portion of my lats (right at the armpit when viewed from the front), and I'm almost positive it came from hitting Bench Dumbbell Pullovers and Low Cable Rows, both in the 5 sets by 10 reps range.  In fact, I am positive that's what's causing it, cuz I've been completely pussing out of chinups altogether 

Bottom line, while I think the heavier resistance afforded by losing the assist will build mass faster, I think the taper really only comes from being able to completely stretch and contract the full length of the latissumus repeatedly and under exquisite form -something generally not conducive to going heavy.  Ergo a conundrum.

My home away from DBB

MVP


The "V" in your back is developed traps. You'll need a defined and strong back. Just focus on increasing the weight you use with your pullups and maybe add some shrugs or something in. Rows, deadlifts, pullups, face pulls, and shrugs should definitely do it for you.

MVP,
   I do a lot of SLDLs but no bent leg deads.  Should I make sure to add those or are squats and SLDLs enough?  Thx!

You'll just have to deadlift and test your genetic response from them. Some people blow up from them and some only gain small amounts of hypertrophy.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

veggeep


Man, if you figure this one out, I'll buy the secret off you 

Just kidding.  Maybe it's just the "lift as heavy as humanly possible even if you can only get three lousy reps out of it" voice in my head, but something is telling me you should ditch the assist completely and let the chips fall where they may.  But take that with a grain of creatine -I don't have that taper either.

However, one thing I have noticed lately is a lot of increased thickness and a little extra width in the top portion of my lats (right at the armpit when viewed from the front), and I'm almost positive it came from hitting Bench Dumbbell Pullovers and Low Cable Rows, both in the 5 sets by 10 reps range.  In fact, I am positive that's what's causing it, cuz I've been completely pussing out of chinups altogether 

Bottom line, while I think the heavier resistance afforded by losing the assist will build mass faster, I think the taper really only comes from being able to completely stretch and contract the full length of the latissumus repeatedly and under exquisite form -something generally not conducive to going heavy.  Ergo a conundrum.

Veg,
   I think I'm going to start a new thread but a big question I have is:  What's the diff between say 3 x 6 and 6 x 3 ?  Same number of total reps.  The 6 sets probably take longer but you use heavier weight?  I'm learning with the HST that gains diminish significantly evern after the first set.  But is the same true of reps?  I understand high rep lower weight sets condition the tendons and if that's what I'm supposed to really be doing these first 2 wks of HST (w/ 15 rep sets) then I guess I shouldn't care whether the first 10 reps of a 15 rep set seem a waste of time with low weight.  Chins are different for me because on most other exercises if I'm working to near failure at rep 15, even rep 1 will feel significant.  On the chin, however, if I were to use a weight that results in a good form 15th rep, rep 1 would feel ridiculously light.  So what's a man to do?  I'm happy to do 15 reps of bodyweight chins, as long as I can recover, even if for 15 seconds when I reach failure.  Seems like that might be more productive and result in more beef ultimately.  Is the latissimus muscle different than others in that it fatigues quickly, yet recovers quickly.  Should it be trained using a different rep scheme than other exercises?  Chins are just an enigma for me.  :(  What would happen to my lats if I did chins until the cows came home?  You know, everytime I walked by the chin bar in the basement just bang 'em out til failure.  Wonder what would happen.  If somethin' good then I'm happy to do it!

MVP


You'll just have to deadlift and test your genetic response from them. Some people blow up from them and some only gain small amounts of hypertrophy.

MVP,
  But bent leg deads are a significantly different exercise than SLDLs?  There's no quad action in SLDLs, right?

Doing shrugs and deads aren't going to increase your lats. Stick with the chins but don't be afraid to do lat pulldowns, they are a great exercise and for someone who struggles with doing bodyweight chins are excellent. You can also do bent arm pullovers and one arm pulldowns. I'd recommend doing at least one of these lat isolations in your routine, I think you'll find your strength and size increase quickly.

V,
    You're the Clipart Photoshop GOD!

 

Theres regular deadlifts, which your referring to and SLDL which is for lower back/glute/ham development. Yes your correct.

The V shape is going to come from your lats. Stick to the pull ups, im sure your doing rows, that will help. A big factor here is going to be where your grip the bar (pull ups and rows).

The wider you go, the more your going to recruit the lats.

Instead of doing assisted pull ups, do as many good form pull ups you can. Then do the rest as negatives.

So if you can do 5 good wide grip pull ups, do the remaining 10 as Negatives. This will serve you much better then doing the assisted ones.

JMBS

MVP


You'll just have to deadlift and test your genetic response from them. Some people blow up from them and some only gain small amounts of hypertrophy.

MVP,
  But bent leg deads are a significantly different exercise than SLDLs?  There's no quad action in SLDLs, right?

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Nm0ney34


Theres regular deadlifts, which your referring to and SLDL which is for lower back/glute/ham development. Yes your correct.

The V shape is going to come from your lats. Stick to the pull ups, im sure your doing rows, that will help. A big factor here is going to be where your grip the bar (pull ups and rows).

The wider you go, the more your going to recruit the lats.

Instead of doing assisted pull ups, do as many good form pull ups you can. Then do the rest as negatives.

So if you can do 5 good wide grip pull ups, do the remaining 10 as Negatives. This will serve you much better then doing the assisted ones.

JMBS

MVP


You'll just have to deadlift and test your genetic response from them. Some people blow up from them and some only gain small amounts of hypertrophy.

MVP,
But bent leg deads are a significantly different exercise than SLDLs?  There's no quad action in SLDLs, right?

N$,
    Thanks, I'll do just that.  That makes sense:  Wide grip (been doing that on chins but have been going narrow on rows.  Will fix that.).  To failure and then I'll finish set w/negatives.  Do you just stand on a bench to do the negs?

you can use a bench to make it easier when going up to the top of the pull up.

I used to just jump up. I would say at least a 5 mississippi count if not longer while lowering yourself down.

may take you a while to complete your set but its only 2, your lats should burn after all that.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

just start off with the 5 pull ups and try and add one rep every time you do pull ups, i used to be really bad at them, now i can do 3 sets of 10 no problem, and i have a pull up bar at the house so ill do them prolly 3 times a week, as for the V, having a smaller waist tends help out with the V taper, the back is a big group of muscles, to work my back good i have to do everything lol, seated cable rows, barbell rows, wide grip pull downs, chin ups, shrugs, etc..and my width hasn't even increased, its thicker, but not wide at all

update! 8/3/09

maxes and goals
bench - need to remax
goal bench - 405

squat - need to remax
goal squat - 500

deadlift - need to remax
goal deadlift - 500
weight -174.8 8%bf 

Do what NMoney told you. When it comes to pullups, I found that doing the negatives works wonders. Doing pullups very often could also help you. For example, I put my pullups bar on the toilet's door. So before I go to the toilet, I would do a set until failure. That was quite some time ago though.

Remember that pullups is a bodyweight exercise, which means you could do them often (several times a week).

jonb, I hear you bro. I have problems with making my lats wide as well.

5'8.1"
Age = 20 
started in February 16th 2007: 58kg (127.6lbs)
current : around 79-80kg (173.8lb-176lb)

i was looking for ways of getting the lats out wider a while ago and found this tri-set idea which i think helped my lats grow but also more importantly helped me gain a better mind muscle connection to them-
    1st set-as many un-assisted pull-ups(wide grip)as you can,
    2nd set(no rest between) stiff arm pulldowns-10 reps,
    3rd set(again no rest)pullovers 10 reps
    rest and repeat x3
   the stiff arm pulldowns really help you squeeze and kinda "find"your lats if done slowly with a pause at the bottom of the exercise.
everyone knows pull-ups(chin ups) are a ****but as jon said try and add reps as you go,it could take a couple of months to get 10 good ones,but it's a long term hobby is it not,next stage is addng weight to your bodyweight-i never thought i would be doing 10 with 20 kgs hanging of a belt but if you want it........
     i wuold also suggest setting an amount of reps ie 50-if you d 10 sets of 5 reps to start then it's just a case of trying to get the 50 rps but in less sets over time-so after 2-3 months(maybe more maybe less)you can walk in and bang out5x10 comfortably..ish!
 

if you're not continually learning then you're listening to the wrong people!!

I would suggest doing Wide grip pull downs with weight equivalent to your body. Followed by Assisted Pull Ups either with a spotter or the Resistant machiene.  Im 6'1 , and it took me about a year to develop wide lats. keep your rep range between 7-12.

Age:19
Height: 6'1
Weight:225
Bench: 205
Squat: 250
Shoulder Press: 135
Deadlift: 250
BF% - 19
Method Of Training : Strength

Developing the V is in a huge part genetics.  Like others have said I know your program is based around higher volume, but if you want to do body weight pull ups better, you should do body weight pull ups, until that 5 solid reps is a good 10 solid reps then you can focus on getting that for each of your sets. 

http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/Seos-Log-2008-m442008.aspx

Here is my question guys.....
Are:
Wide grip pull seated pull-downs = Wide grip pull-ups?

Are they the exact same exercise? Which one is better?

pull ups, by far.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Stingray


Here is my question guys.....
Are:
Wide grip pull seated pull-downs = Wide grip pull-ups?

Are they the exact same exercise? Which one is better?

I find I lean back a lot further on seated pulldowns than I can in a pull-up, and that puts more emphasis on the rhomboids and inner traps.

Also, pull-ups seem to require more core stabilization and even recruit your hamstrings to keep your legs up and your body from swinging excessively.  Towards the end of a set of pull-ups, if I need a cheat, I swing my legs up (like in a hanging knee raise), and that adds even a little bit of hip flexor and abdominal burn.

So pull-ups by far.

My home away from DBB

Did wide grip body weight pullups (I call them chinups for some reason.  I always thought pulls were where you could see your fingertips, thumbs away from each other).  Drumroll please.... I got a whole 3 of them out!  Woo hoo!  And they weren't great form either.  Of course I had already done squats, SLDLs, incline presses, and dips.  And it was 5:30 am.  I know excuses, excuses!  After the 3 wimpy bodyweight chins, I finished off the set of 15 (so 12 additional reps) with negatives.  They were so much easier:  I hung out stationary at the top for a couple seconds on each rep and then took 2 to 3 secs to make the descent.  Of course I rested probably 15 secs between reps.  I was supposed to do a 2nd set of 15 but thought maybe I should knock it down to 1 set.  The 2nd set would have been terrible form anyway.  We'll see how my lats fell tomorrow and Wednesday.  That will tell me whether I worked them significantly.

you could do your pullups with a box under you and do negatives that helped me alot at first with pullups.

up in one second and down for 5 seconds then after im done training back i stretch my lats like crazy.

YOU GOTTA EAT BIG, TO BE BIG!!

NASM certified trainer
NFPT certified trainer

Winter Bulk goal:245-250 by dec 31
Current weight: 235

did any of you actually ever go and try the armstrong program for pullups?

PumaKrieg


did any of you actually ever go and try the armstrong program for pullups?

dude... I just looked it up... it looks brutal

I did it for 3 weeks and it worked pretty well, however i took a week and a half off from it (and continued losing weight) and the reps i could do dropped in half so i basically went back to how i was before. :P

pull ups are the key.   franco columbo swore by pull ups.

If your doing pull ups as part of HST swap them lat pull down for the 15's and 10's and introduce pull up's in week 5 & 6 for the 5's.

Also unsure if anyone mentioned this already but when doing lat pull down or pull ups do them thumbless, it'll take away a lot of the focus from your forearms and move it to where u want it...your lats!

No, negative pull ups will still do him much better then that lat pull down ever will.

I dont totally hate that machine, and think in a few situations it can be useful, but overall pull ups are leaps and bounds better. No contest.

But good comment about the thumb-less grip. I do all my pull ups thumb-less now and it really helps.

danchubbz


If your doing pull ups as part of HST swap them lat pull down for the 15's and 10's and introduce pull up's in week 5 & 6 for the 5's.

Also unsure if anyone mentioned this already but when doing lat pull down or pull ups do them thumbless, it'll take away a lot of the focus from your forearms and move it to where u want it...your lats!

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Nm0ney34


No, negative pull ups will still do him much better then that lat pull down ever will.

I dont totally hate that machine, and think in a few situations it can be useful, but overall pull ups are leaps and bounds better. No contest.

But good comment about the thumb-less grip. I do all my pull ups thumb-less now and it really helps.

danchubbz


If your doing pull ups as part of HST swap them lat pull down for the 15's and 10's and introduce pull up's in week 5 & 6 for the 5's.

Also unsure if anyone mentioned this already but when doing lat pull down or pull ups do them thumbless, it'll take away a lot of the focus from your forearms and move it to where u want it...your lats!

I'm not knocking neg pull ups but he's doing HST so he needs to able to do 15 reps from as little as his 75% RM sp lat pull down could be an alternative for the time being