For the HST fans, you know who you are.

Alright. Heres the HST Routine I very recently began. So Far ive just done the first workout of the first week. Tell me what you think about the exercises selected, the increments used, and whatever else comes to mind. Chances are I won't be changing anything at this point but it can't hurt to get some pointers before my next mesocycle.

I'm using a 15, 10, 5, 5 rep scheme for the 8 week mesocycle. Right now the last 2 weeks of 5 reps had their weights calculated as if i were only doing 4 reps. I thought this might spice it up at the end.

I am doing 2 sets on the 15s week, 2 on the 10s and 3 on the 5s. Pretty standard stuff. Oh and I bring a stopwatch into the gym with me and time out 40 seconds of rest between each set (rest between new workouts is longer, i just go by feel then).

Full body workout done 3 days per week.

Flat Bench
DB shoulder press
Deadlift with shrug
Squats
Lunges
Straight Bar Curls
Bar Bell Rows
Close Grip Bench press (Hands well inside elbows)
Calf Raises
Ab Oblique circuit (Hard to explain what this is, just some exercises I like)

A healthy body is a guest chamber for the soul: a sick body is a prison.

-Francis Bacon

ORIGINAL: Yet

Usually when I get to the top of my deadlift I'll do a reverse-grip curl.

Two things I think need to be changed..

1:Drop the curls and replace with some type of Pullup or pulldown.. that will work your bi's just as well and if pullups are performed they'll work far better than the curls.

2:You should consider only squatting 2X's weekly and doing deads 1 time... by the time you get half way through the program.. squatting and doing deads on every workout is going to get difficult and I would speculate it will effect all your other lifts.. one week squat 2 X's  the next Dead 2 X's would be a good solution.

ORIGINAL: Stillseeingreen

Alright. Heres the HST Routine I very recently began. So Far ive just done the first workout of the first week. Tell me what you think about the exercises selected, the increments used, and whatever else comes to mind. Chances are I won't be changing anything at this point but it can't hurt to get some pointers before my next mesocycle.

I'm using a 15, 10, 5, 5 rep scheme for the 8 week mesocycle. Right now the last 2 weeks of 5 reps had their weights calculated as if i were only doing 4 reps. I thought this might spice it up at the end.

I am doing 2 sets on the 15s week, 2 on the 10s and 3 on the 5s. Pretty standard stuff. Oh and I bring a stopwatch into the gym with me and time out 40 seconds of rest between each set (rest between new workouts is longer, i just go by feel then).

Full body workout done 3 days per week.

Flat Bench
DB shoulder press
Deadlift with shrug
Squats
Lunges
Straight Bar Curls
Bar Bell Rows
Close Grip Bench press (Hands well inside elbows)
Calf Raises
Ab Oblique circuit (Hard to explain what this is, just some exercises I like)

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

ORIGINAL: Stillseeingreen

Alright. Heres the HST Routine I very recently began. So Far ive just done the first workout of the first week. Tell me what you think about the exercises selected, the increments used, and whatever else comes to mind. Chances are I won't be changing anything at this point but it can't hurt to get some pointers before my next mesocycle.

I'm using a 15, 10, 5, 5 rep scheme for the 8 week mesocycle. Right now the last 2 weeks of 5 reps had their weights calculated as if i were only doing 4 reps. I thought this might spice it up at the end.

I am doing 2 sets on the 15s week, 2 on the 10s and 3 on the 5s. Pretty standard stuff. Oh and I bring a stopwatch into the gym with me and time out 40 seconds of rest between each set (rest between new workouts is longer, i just go by feel then).

Full body workout done 3 days per week.

Flat Bench
DB shoulder press
Deadlift with shrug
Squats
Lunges
Straight Bar Curls
Bar Bell Rows
Close Grip Bench press (Hands well inside elbows)
Calf Raises
Ab Oblique circuit (Hard to explain what this is, just some exercises I like)

i agree with smound partially.  get some pullups in that routine is my recommendation.

also.. you can throw out the lunges for now. not needed IMO with squats. my butt has grown like crazy with just squats.

my lifts haven't been affected by doing deads and squats for 2 sets... but it really depends on the individual.  some person's bodies can handle a bit more than others.   I feel great doing just 2 sets of each.

My name is FOX.... and I approve this message.

ORIGINAL: smoundzou

Two things I think need to be changed..

1:Drop the curls and replace with some type of Pullup or pulldown.. that will work your bi's just as well and if pullups are performed they'll work far better than the curls.

2:You should consider only squatting 2X's weekly and doing deads 1 time... by the time you get half way through the program.. squatting and doing deads on every workout is going to get difficult and I would speculate it will effect all your other lifts.. one week squat 2 X's  the next Dead 2 X's would be a good solution.

In regards to 1: I will def consider that because I already know my max for pulldowns so it would be easy to add. My concern though is that I am not sure what you are saying it will work "far better than curls". Are you saying that pulldowns will hit biceps better than curls? Or are you saying it is good because pulldowns hits the biceps in addition to other muscles? I know a big part of HST is limiting isolating workouts if not avoiding them altogether.

In regards to 2: I had never considered that, I will see if my other lifts fail to meet their volume/ weight requirements that I layed out in advance. If squats, deads, or something similiar (i.e. Barbell rows) is negatively effected by the frequency then I now know that it is an acceptable option to alter the frequency on certain lifts.

ORIGINAL: TheSilverFox


i agree with smound partially.  get some pullups in that routine is my recommendation.

also.. you can throw out the lunges for now. not needed IMO with squats. my butt has grown like crazy with just squats.

my lifts haven't been affected by doing deads and squats for 2 sets... but it really depends on the individual.  some person's bodies can handle a bit more than others.   I feel great doing just 2 sets of each.

The lunges concerned me a little bit as they did seem to make my legs shaky on Barbell rows, not enough to make me do less weight than I intended but i was a little nervous. I think I will just keep in mind that I can drop them if I need to.



Thanks so much to the two of you for your thoughts. The changes that I don't implement this mesocycle will still alter my planning for the next one.

A healthy body is a guest chamber for the soul: a sick body is a prison.

-Francis Bacon

ORIGINAL: Yet

Usually when I get to the top of my deadlift I'll do a reverse-grip curl.

Also just in case it hasn't been said always start off the workout with the most taxing exercise and work your way down.

Squat and deadlifts should be always been done first!!!

Squatting and deadlifting on the same workout depends on the person and probably how hard they are hitting it.

For example in starting strength Rippitoe recommends doing only one heavy set of deadlifts with combination of doing the squats with the intended sets. Something like start off with squat for 3x5 and give back a rest by doing benchpress second and then do deadlifts for 1 work set only.

Just to explain my reasoning behind not including both Squats and Deadlifts within the same training session..
 
Squats and deadlifts are both very taxing exercises on the entire lower posterior.. For HST.. Hypertrophy, there is absolutely no need to put that type of damage on those group of muscles in order to stimulate growth.  It's like having a glass 3/4 full and trying to pour another full glass of water into it.. it's going to spill over and be wasted.. for hypertrophy.. it's simply a waste of energy and time.. If a lifter is trying to gain maximum strength and has some time under his belt then it might be a consideration.. but for hypertrophy.. it's really overkill and unnecessary..

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

In regards to 1: I will def consider that because I already know my max for pulldowns so it would be easy to add. My concern though is that I am not sure what you are saying it will work "far better than curls". Are you saying that pulldowns will hit biceps better than curls? Or are you saying it is good because pulldowns hits the biceps in addition to other muscles? I know a big part of HST is limiting isolating workouts if not avoiding them altogether.

 
Let me explain what I mean.. No, I'm not saying pulldowns are better for your bi's than curls.. but I am saying that pullups or pulldowns are a more functional exercise and overall will better serve you for hypertrophy than staning in front of a mirriro doing curls. (no saying you do, but most of us do..)  If you're doing a combination of Rows and Pullups, or pulldowns.. your bi's are already getting hammered and unless you have some serious muscle development going on, it's simply not necesarry..

In regards to 2: I had never considered that, I will see if my other lifts fail to meet their volume/ weight requirements that I layed out in advance. If squats, deads, or something similiar (i.e. Barbell rows) is negatively effected by the frequency then I now know that it is an acceptable option to alter the frequency on certain lifts.

 
I gave my reasoning for this in my previous post..

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

ORIGINAL: smoundzou

Two things I think need to be changed..

1:Drop the curls and replace with some type of Pullup or pulldown.. that will work your bi's just as well and if pullups are performed they'll work far better than the curls.

2:You should consider only squatting 2X's weekly and doing deads 1 time... by the time you get half way through the program.. squatting and doing deads on every workout is going to get difficult and I would speculate it will effect all your other lifts.. one week squat 2 X's  the next Dead 2 X's would be a good solution.

I was thinking more about the sentence that I emboldened above. I was thinking that if i did reduce the volume I would be more inclined to reduce Deads to twice per week and Squats to once per week. If you think that is too much deadlifting still I could do the following:
Week 1: 15s----->      M= DL     W= Sq    F= DL
Week 2: 15s----->      M= Sq     W= DL    F= Sq

And about your recommendation to replace straight bar curls... I might switch to underhand barbell rows and then add pulldowns in place of the curls. The underhand rows paired with the pulldowns would definitely give my biceps enough microdamage to make curls superfluous.

Again thanks for the help a lot of the stuff you're mentioning is stuff that would have never occurred to me.

ORIGINAL: felonyr301

Also just in case it hasn't been said always start off the workout with the most taxing exercise and work your way down.

Squat and deadlifts should be always been done first!!!

Squatting and deadlifting on the same workout depends on the person and probably how hard they are hitting it.

For example in starting strength Rippitoe recommends doing only one heavy set of deadlifts with combination of doing the squats with the intended sets. Something like start off with squat for 3x5 and give back a rest by doing benchpress second and then do deadlifts for 1 work set only.

For sure dude. Always good to mention though. I used to do lunges before squats and it just murdered my form.

A healthy body is a guest chamber for the soul: a sick body is a prison.

-Francis Bacon

ORIGINAL: Yet

Usually when I get to the top of my deadlift I'll do a reverse-grip curl.

I'm glad I could help answer some of your questions.  Good luck with HST.  If you follow is carefully and calculate out your lifts before starting.. you'll see some good gains with both hypertrophy and strength. I would suggest doing 3-4 cycles and then do a different type of training for a cycle or two in order to avoid burning out on it.. which is very easy to do.. if the routine is followed correctly.. it will literally kick your ass by the time you're into the 2nd- 3rd cycle..

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

ORIGINAL: smoundzou

Just to explain my reasoning behind not including both Squats and Deadlifts within the same training session..

Squats and deadlifts are both very taxing exercises on the entire lower posterior.. For HST.. Hypertrophy, there is absolutely no need to put that type of damage on those group of muscles in order to stimulate growth.  It's like having a glass 3/4 full and trying to pour another full glass of water into it.. it's going to spill over and be wasted.. for hypertrophy.. it's simply a waste of energy and time.. If a lifter is trying to gain maximum strength and has some time under his belt then it might be a consideration.. but for hypertrophy.. it's really overkill and unnecessary..

I agree that growth in an HST program can be stimulated w/o doing squats/deads every workout, but isn't the goal in HST to use compound exercises to hit all of the muscle groups 3 times a week so that you are not wasting recovery time and putting your muscles in pretty much a constant "growth" environment. I guess as long as you were squatting or deadlifting every workout you'd still get constant growth in your legs but I can't see leaving them off a workout all together. Silverfox and I have been doing 2 sets of squats and deads every workout and I don't think any of our other lifts have suffered for it. I've actually lost almost 40 lbs. this year and my lifts have gone up on everything but my bench (which was disproportionately strong to begin with). I guess knowing Stillseeinggreen's level of fitness would help answer the question of whether he should do deads/squats together, but I've only been consistently working out for about 6 months now and I get through them fine (admittedly I do feel like throwing up after I'm done with my dead's sometimes). :)

I'd hate to think I'm putting in extra effort/time for no return. Maybe this is the case, but I'm just now feeling good about my deadlifting so I don't think I can decrease the frequency at this point.

Age: 26 Height: 5'10
Weight as of 8/31/08: 160lbs.
Current weight: 180lbs.
Semi-Clean Bulkin!
Current Maxes as of 6/4/08:
Squat: 250lbs.
Deadlift: 255lbs.
Bench: 285lbs.

If it's not hindering your other lifts and you're still making good mass gains then I see no reason for you to stop doing squats and deads each workout. 
 
I explained my reasoning in the previous post.. the objective of HST isn't strength, although most do get stronger when doing an HST type workout.. the objective is to grow.. and doing a taxing lift like deads and squats together can be over-kill on muscles. 
 
If it's what you've been doing and your body has adapted then you're probably better off continuing to do so.. at least until you do a deconditioning period.. but for most, when first starting the program, the gains they get from rotating the lifts weekly would probably be better than if done each individual workout....
 
IMO, it's better for trainee's to try and achieve maximum growth with as little work as possible through efficient, practical training.... save the long grueling workouts for when you're at a more advanced level and actually need it in order to inflict micro damage to a muscle....

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

ORIGINAL: smoundzou

 

If it's what you've been doing and your body has adapted then you're probably better off continuing to do so.. at least until you do a deconditioning period.. but for most, when first starting the program, the gains they get from rotating the lifts weekly would probably be better than if done each individual workout....

'nother question for you smound

how would mdlifter and I decondition??
let me explain.. we have 2 weeks left on HST.  at this time.. we'll do a max-out day just to see where we're at, and then rest for a week.

after the week of rest, we intend on starting some strength training.

so.. my question is this.  how do we go about de-conditioning at the end of HST? and is it necessary?

i have no idea what's involved with deconditioning... so if i need to do it, please advise me as to WHEN, and HOW to go about it.

thanks in advance

My name is FOX.... and I approve this message.

Deconditioning is probably on of the most misunderstood aspects of HST.. The way the HST site has the routines layed out.. it almost dictates a deconditioning period after the 8 week cycle which is far from practical training. 
 
A micro cycle of hst is recommended to be 2 weeks.. but if the trainee is still able to progress forward.. the cycle shouldn't end but rather continue.. into a 3rd or 4th week.. only when you have reached positive failure should you begin another micro cycle...
 
Deconditioning is simply what you said.. taking a week off, allowing the muscles to relax and fully heal.. but this should only be done when you're nearing a point of over-reaching.. otherwise.. it's just a waste of good workout time.... You're micro cycle of HST shouldn't end until it has to end and you can no longer carry on a progressive load.. 
 

ORIGINAL: TheSilverFox

ORIGINAL: smoundzou



If it's what you've been doing and your body has adapted then you're probably better off continuing to do so.. at least until you do a deconditioning period.. but for most, when first starting the program, the gains they get from rotating the lifts weekly would probably be better than if done each individual workout....

'nother question for you smound

how would mdlifter and I decondition??
let me explain.. we have 2 weeks left on HST.  at this time.. we'll do a max-out day just to see where we're at, and then rest for a week.

after the week of rest, we intend on starting some strength training.

so.. my question is this.  how do we go about de-conditioning at the end of HST? and is it necessary?

i have no idea what's involved with deconditioning... so if i need to do it, please advise me as to WHEN, and HOW to go about it.

thanks in advance

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

so does that mean that when a begginer, such as myself, reaches positive faliure with the last micro cycle of HST could go straight to another begaining cycle of HST?

No the leg press is not the same as doing squats.

ORIGINAL: smoundzou

Deconditioning is probably on of the most misunderstood aspects of HST.. The way the HST site has the routines layed out.. it almost dictates a deconditioning period after the 8 week cycle which is far from practical training. 

A micro cycle of hst is recommended to be 2 weeks.. but if the trainee is still able to progress forward.. the cycle shouldn't end but rather continue.. into a 3rd or 4th week.. only when you have reached positive failure should you begin another micro cycle...

Deconditioning is simply what you said.. taking a week off, allowing the muscles to relax and fully heal.. but this should only be done when you're nearing a point of over-reaching.. otherwise.. it's just a waste of good workout time.... You're micro cycle of HST shouldn't end until it has to end and you can no longer carry on a progressive load.. 

ORIGINAL: TheSilverFox

ORIGINAL: smoundzou



If it's what you've been doing and your body has adapted then you're probably better off continuing to do so.. at least until you do a deconditioning period.. but for most, when first starting the program, the gains they get from rotating the lifts weekly would probably be better than if done each individual workout....

'nother question for you smound

how would mdlifter and I decondition??
let me explain.. we have 2 weeks left on HST.  at this time.. we'll do a max-out day just to see where we're at, and then rest for a week.

after the week of rest, we intend on starting some strength training.

so.. my question is this.  how do we go about de-conditioning at the end of HST? and is it necessary?

i have no idea what's involved with deconditioning... so if i need to do it, please advise me as to WHEN, and HOW to go about it.

thanks in advance

k.. that makes sense.

now i have another question though.
You mentioned that you progress until failure on every exercise you do before deconditioning...

so.. with that being said (yes, i plan my workouts quite well to where I will reach failure on my 6th workout day)

there are a few times where not every muscle group is going to FAIL on the last workout day.  Say for instance... you are doing 6 reps of squats with no problems..  and still have room to increase/progress with weights.  BUT, every other exercise has failed on the 6 rep sets.. and has no room to go up anymore
(no, i'm not saying this is what happens to me, but it's an example)

what does one do when not every muscle group fails at exactly the same time??

do they stay at the same weight on the exercises where they fail to progress..  and keep adding weight in the areas they are lacking in until failure is reached?

OR, do they stop everything completely and decondition?? or are there other options i'm not even thinking of?


this is something that kinda buggs me b/c while I try to pick my 10 rep maxes perfectly.. i am NOT always right on with them, and sometimes have a day or 2 left in me on certain exercises.  know what i mean???  what do i do????

My name is FOX.... and I approve this message.

yes.. that's exactly what it means.. and if you want you can even drop the 15's and go straight to another micro cycle of 10's followed by 5's.. but I can't stress how important it is to caluclate out your lifts (15RM/10RM and 5RM) as close as possible..

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

That's an interesting point and I've actually had it happen.. and it all depends on the lift.. If I'm going along fine with squats, deads, OH presses but for one reason or another, my bench is still going strong.. I usually follow the stronger lifts.. and adjust the lagging lift by upping the weight..
 
if every lift is going as scheudled but one.. such as squats.. and you're nearing failure too soon in the micro cycle.. same thing.. just adjust the weight down as best you can so each lift ends around the same time.. if you're a little off, it's no big deal.. you just don't want to finish the micro cycle with postive failure on half the lifts and the other half still going strong.. it's a moreless a call by the individual as to how they handle it.. hope that helps a little

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

yes it did.  thanks guy

My name is FOX.... and I approve this message.