For Gaining Mass

When you consume your ON...how much are you consuming and with what?

No trouble with milk? 

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I just use the normal scoop that comes with it, and I always mix with water.  I suppose my biggest fault is maybe not using enough water (probably use a 1 1/2 cup or so)

Nope, have lots of milk with no problems.

According to the package, how much protein is in the "scoop"
You only take it with water.

When would this be?
Pre or Post workout?

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I believe there is 24g protein in each scoop-- and I prefer to take it pre and post with some carbs. (raisins)

But because of the discomfort I've stopped taking it altogether. 

BTW I've had it other times and still had discomfort (before bed for example)

Then I believe the issue is osmality in your gut.

When you take a large amount of a powder like that, you can imagine a large amount of, say, chalk going into your gut?  The gut is going to try to normalize the fluid concentrations, and this causes some gut discomfort -this happens in many people.

Solution?  Smaller diluted doses taken in stages.

You can also create a very diluted drink to sip throughout the workout.

You may get use to and better at the gut thing over time.

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Alright, I'll give that a go- thanks for the info!

ORIGINAL: danmirage

Then I believe the issue is osmality in your gut.

When you take a large amount of a powder like that, you can imagine a large amount of, say, chalk going into your gut?  The gut is going to try to normalize the fluid concentrations, and this causes some gut discomfort -this happens in many people.

Solution?  Smaller diluted doses taken in stages.

You can also create a very diluted drink to sip throughout the workout.

You may get use to and better at the gut thing over time.

ive wondered something about during workout drinks. u said u should wait a little while after a workout to have a PWO shake because ur blood is going towards ur muscles right? so wouldnt that mean it would be better to not have any drink besides water during a workout?

ive wondered something about during workout drinks. u said u should wait a little while after a workout to have a PWO shake because ur blood is going towards ur muscles right? so wouldnt that mean it would be better to not have any drink besides water during a workout?

It is a good question.

You will note that I say it must be very diluted.
The reason is that amino acids and/or carbs, especially Branched Chain amino acids and glucose, when taken in a dilute form, can bypass the digestion and move directly into the blood. 

This is the goal for nutrients consumed during training:

To get glucose and amino acids in the blood for immediate use without stimulating the need for digestive processes that require blood to come from the working muscles: while you train the blood won't come in any volume needed to carry out essential processes, and then you have absorption issues, etc.

Post workout you have a bolus or large dose of protein and carbs and this activates the digestive process, wanting to take blood from the recovering muscles.  If you wait until you have cooled down, the blood is not preferentially all in the working muscle and more is free to carry the nutrients to the muscle where it is needed.

Thus, during workout you can sip a DILUTED protein or BCAA or BCAA/carb depending on your training/tolerances/goals.

It does improve hormone profiles for growth.

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Hope you can see this:

Click the thumbnail to see the way blood is redistributed during training.

Most resistance training we do IS Maximal on this chart.
Green is your digestion. 
Note how in maximal the amount of circulaiton to the area drops to 1/5th the resting circulation.


Blood Flow Redistribution During Exercise

[image]local://7022/205F87CDB4164D879F0A8380090A7B6C.JPG[/image]

Attached Image(s)

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oh ok thats pretty interesting. so how much protein should be mixed into how much water?

and do u recommend it or is it just a small thing that could maybe help a little with muscle growth but also potentially add more fat?

Well with BCAA there is some sparing of muscle protein.
The carb addition would be for bulking focus.

Roughly 1 teaspoon of BCAA per 8 OZ water.

The maximum anabolic mix looks like this (Diluted and sipped):

During Workout (especially if WO goes over 40 minutes)

• 0.1 g/lb X bodyweight in BCAA
  
• 0.2 g/lb  X bodyweight in High Glycemic Carbs

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how much protein powder should i use (if i should at all) if i don't have pure BCAA's?

You don't have any trouble with your pre and post workout protein...do you?

What you sip during is a very slight thing.

Think 1-3 teaspoons of protein in 16 ounces...

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

You don't have any trouble with your pre and post workout protein...do you?

What you sip during is a very slight thing.

Think 1-3 teaspoons of protein in 16 ounces...

ok, and no i havent had any trouble with pre/post workout protein

why is this not a sticky?

"In heaven, all the interesting people are missing." Friedrich Nietzsche

"Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted" John Lennon

hey sorry to bother u
but i have another quick question
my freind is going to use creatine monohydrate before workouts and after work outs (and maybe before he goes to sleep) he wants to use a protien supplement
so what should i recomend for him and he also has a low budget
incase you need it
he is 17 years old
he weight around 140
and wants to get big fast
so what would be a good effective quick cheap protien for him

Protein is just protein.  I buy mine in 10 pound bags. as for the best combination for rapid growth...look at the post at the bottom of the very first post in this...

Get More Strenth More Muscle and More Leanness
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/Get_more_Strenth_More_Muscle_and_More_Leanness/m_244801/tm.htm

In short:
You do the math.

Here is what they did:
30 minutes before and immediatly after training they consumed a supplement equal to:
Whey Protein 0.18 grams per pound of bodyweight
Carbohydrate 0.2 grams per pound of bodyweight
Creatine Monohydrate at about .03 grams per pound of bodyweight (about 1/4 teaspoon per 40 pounds)

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

Here is what they did:
30 minutes before and immediatly after training they consumed a supplement equal to:
Whey Protein 0.18 grams per pound of bodyweight
Carbohydrate 0.2 grams per pound of bodyweight
Creatine Monohydrate at about .03 grams per pound of bodyweight (about 1/4 teaspoon per 40 pounds)

this looks really similar to what i'm going to be doing now

about the post workout carbs, would that be really low? that puts me at only about 32g of carbs but if i'm eating 45% carbs thats at least 50g per meal and shouldnt PWO have the most or at least no less?

Also would it be more beneficial to just get simple carbs PWO like a banana and a cup of milk over adding something slow digesting and high in fiber like oatmeal?

edit: so far this is what i have but it doesnt seem high enough in calories or carbs

-4.4oz Banana: 110 calories, 1.2g protein, 27.5 g carbs, 0.5g fat 
-Protein powder, 1.5 scoops: 135 calories, 25.5g protein, 3g carbs, 2.25g fat
-Fat free milk, 1 cup: 90 calories, 8 g protein, 13carbs, 0g fat
-2 oz. Chicken breast: 67 calories, 14g protein, 0 carbs, 0 fat
TOTAL: 402 calories, 48.7g protein, 43.5carbs, 2.75g fat

Duke of the Emancipation Detoxification

PWO is after you cool down, within 45 minutes of your training.
It is not like a normal meal.
You DO want faster availability ideally.

Those carbs are to spike insulin and replenish glycogen stores utilizing a faster method than at other times.
Post workout is a unique physiological state.

Don't confuse PWO with a meal.
The research you are referencing used a fast availability liquid.

Let me put some times to this to illustrate...basd upon whey pre and post WO

Meal 4 (3:00)
Quinoa
Beef
Carrots and celery

(4:00)
Pre work out (PWO) carbs+protein+CM
Whey Protein 0.18 grams per pound of bodyweight
Carbohydrate 0.2 grams per pound of bodyweight
Creatine Monohydrate at about .03 grams per pound of bodyweight (about 1/4 teaspoon per 40 pounds)

Training 4:30-5:15

5:20
Post Work out (PWO) carbs+protein+CM
Whey Protein 0.18 grams per pound of bodyweight
Carbohydrate 0.2 grams per pound of bodyweight
Creatine Monohydrate at about .03 grams per pound of bodyweight (about 1/4 teaspoon per 40 pounds)

Meal 6 (6:30)
Baked Sweet Potato
Turkey
Broccoli

In fact, I argue that the amount of ideal carbs to get the optimal response is individual.
I won't be able to test that clinically for some time.

One thing to note...this is for OPTIMAL anabolic response!!!
You may have to adjust this to suit your individual response, but don't be bashful, try it if you start to get fat, then switch to something ONLY slightly more conservative.

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well actually i was thinking that was already pretty conservative, low in calories/carbs anyway

i wish i could set it up that way and i'll probably switch to something more like that over the summer. but for now i workout in the morning and when i get home i dont have time for a PWO drink and then waiting and having another meal because i leave for school pretty soon after getting home. so basically my PWO is my first real meal and has always had the most carbs in it

http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/My_bulking_diet_with_carb_cycling/m_388361/tm.htm

thats how i was planning on having my meals set up now. as u can see i put only simple carbs PWO but it seems like from what im reading here that would be too much?

Duke of the Emancipation Detoxification

Yes, the point is that you have to modify your plan.

You do the best you can.
A meal then is fine! 
But don't try to plan it as a PWO...plan it as a normal meal by your meal plan.

PWO and meal are two different things.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

Yes, the point is that you have to modify your plan.

You do the best you can.
A meal then is fine! 
But don't try to plan it as a PWO...plan it as a normal meal by your meal plan.

PWO and meal are two different things.

ok well i'd say that meal is about 20min. or so after my workout. I could pretty much bring the whole thing in a shake with me to the gym and have it directly after but you've told me in the past to not do that since i should wait 10min. or so.

Since it is so close to my workout shouldnt it be somewhat made for that though?  as it is now would u change anything? maybe keep 1 banana instead of 1.5 and make that up with oatmeal so i'm not getting 40+grams of simple sugar?

Duke of the Emancipation Detoxification

For that meal...just forget the idea of a PWO and eat a normal meal.
Chicken
Broccoli
Rice

Think about this....How long from the moment you stop training to when you normally sit down...over 10 minutes?

Then if you want to grab some of those optimal gains...I would ALSO get an immediate PWO when you stop breathing hard.
Perhaps not as intense as the one in the research, but if you had a liquid with protein and some carbs right then...much of that goes right into the blood.  Lower carbs (if at all) in that PWO because you will be eating a meal in a few minutes adn don't want those slower digesting meal calories going the wrong way when they make it through in 50 minutes.  You could do all BCAA and/or protein for the PWO...

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

For that meal...just forget the idea of a PWO and eat a normal meal.
Chicken
Broccoli
Rice

Think about this....How long from the moment you stop training to when you normally sit down...over 10 minutes?

Then if you want to grab some of those optimal gains...I would ALSO get an immediate PWO when you stop breathing hard.
Perhaps not as intense as the one in the research, but if you had a liquid with protein and some carbs right then...much of that goes right into the blood.  Lower carbs (if at all) in that PWO because you will be eating a meal in a few minutes adn don't want those slower digesting meal calories going the wrong way when they make it through in 50 minutes.  You could do all BCAA and/or protein for the PWO...

i was actually going to say something like that but didnt know if it would make sense lol, i guess it does

so how about something like a scoop of whey protein (17g for me) and 1/2 of a banana about 5-10min. after working out

then when i got home i could have oatmeal, chicken, 1/2 scoop of protein and milk?

thats what i was doing before for the most part during my cut

Duke of the Emancipation Detoxification

so how about something like a scoop of whey protein (17g for me) and 1/2 of a banana about 5-10min. after working out

Sure....

then when i got home i could have oatmeal, chicken, 1/2 scoop of protein and milk?

Vegetable?

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

so how about something like a scoop of whey protein (17g for me) and 1/2 of a banana about 5-10min. after working out

Sure....

then when i got home i could have oatmeal, chicken, 1/2 scoop of protein and milk?

Vegetable?

ok cool, since its the weekend and i'll have more time i might just do the other plan of .18g of whey and .2g of carbs after. i'll probably have about 1.5 scoops of whey and 1 banana PWO with the creatine. on normal days when i have school i'll just have a little less since i wont be able to wait as long.
and i'll put brocolli or spinach in that meal.
thanks

i took a heaping tsp. of creatine before and after my workout out, but i thought that u only should get 5g a day and that would be all that was needed.

Duke of the Emancipation Detoxification

Dan, what have your studies shown in the way of 'shaping' muscles?

I would tend to think most of it is genetic, but for example, if one was to incorporate alot of incline chest excercises, could they noticeably enlarge the top of the pec?

Just be aware that there are many different muscles that are the "pect" and working one group will make them bigger.
Muscles are also layered and you can work a muscle that will give another muscle more "body".

So you can shape by selective training...yes.

The rest is as you noted, mainly genetic.

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what foods are good for getting carbohydrates in my system

Read the first post in this thread.

Whole balanced meals help the body process carbs better than "monocrop" diets.

If you need more carbs, look at the food choices I have listed and simply use larger servings.

Next, add a pre and post workout drink as described in the first post.  The timing aspect of these carbs and proteins increases the uptake and utilization of the nutrients, especially carbs.

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