Fat Burn + Muscle Growth

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs
Are you suggesting that dedicated cuff conditioning is worthless simply because the external rotators are worked in OHP?

Please elaborate upon your theory that injury prevention practice is actually regular weight training itself.

I don't quite understand what is injury prevention training. Injury comes either from muscle imbalances, bad form with too heavy weight or lack of flexibility (which also causes bad form). So, the only thing I can think of as injury prevention is fixing imbalances and flexiblity. Once you don't have these, how do you train for injury prevention?

Rotator cuff injury is usually imbalance between the strength of external and internal rotators. The external rotators are trained well in OH press but not in bench press. Hence, many people who bench press, but don't press, have shoulder problems. These problems were practically non-existent before the bench press. See the connection?

For recovery, maintenance of flexibility (and reflective injury prevention)?

Squats will maintain all the flexibility you need for squatting. You can add stretching to the end of your workout if you want.

Now, how foam rollers aid recovery?

ORIGINAL: coldfire

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs
Are you suggesting that dedicated cuff conditioning is worthless simply because the external rotators are worked in OHP?

Please elaborate upon your theory that injury prevention practice is actually regular weight training itself.

I don't quite understand what is injury prevention training. Injury comes either from muscle imbalances, bad form with too heavy weight or lack of flexibility (which also causes bad form). So, the only thing I can think of as injury prevention is fixing imbalances and flexiblity. Once you don't have these, how do you train for injury prevention?

The discussion is addressing the methods we use to tend to the imbalances.

You are pressing the claim that imbalances can be addressed in weight training itself and accessory work (in an attempt to prevent injury) has little use.

Rotator cuff injury is usually imbalance between the strength of external and internal rotators. The external rotators are trained well in OH press but not in bench press. Hence, many people who bench press, but don't press, have shoulder problems. These problems were practically non-existent before the bench press. See the connection?

Again, the point of the discussion is fixing the imbalances in training VS fixing the imbalances in training whilst realising the value of accessory training also.

On the contrary most imbalances come as a result of bad habits in everyday life.

ORIGINAL: KingKebabs
For recovery, maintenance of flexibility (and reflective injury prevention)?

ORIGINAL: coldfire

Squats will maintain all the flexibility you need for squatting. You can add stretching to the end of your workout if you want.

It does not take away from the fact that the activity can contribute further towards efficiency and quality of muscle tissue.

ORIGINAL: coldfire
Now, how foam rollers aid recovery?

How does sports massage aid recovery?

Do we recover by squatting?

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs
The discussion is addressing the methods we use to tend to the imbalances.

You are pressing the claim that imbalances can be addressed in weight training itself and accessory work (in an attempt to prevent injury) has little use.

Yes, that's what I claim. What I was asking is how accessory work helps.

How does sports massage aid recovery?

How indeed?

Do we recover by squatting?

You could, with light weights.



I am just asking for explanation, not just claims.

Why wouldn't dedicated focus upon a problem be beneficial to solving the problem?

You are attempting to argue with what should be common sense.

Squatting with light weight is not recovery.  It's stress in a lighter form.

Instead of me going in depth about autogenic inhibition and the like - of which reliable, factual information is readily available, you give your explaination why foam rolling and sports massage is not beneficial to recovery.

I'm sure your controversial theories will be sought after in the world pertaining to physiology where many people who practice these methods on a regular basis with great effect would beg to differ.

Break some ice.

 Coldfire and KingKebabs discussing something is pretty good to read, since they're both pretty similar.

This thread delivers.

President of the Emancipation Detoxification. DBB's oldest forum group, punching baby seals since 2/12/08

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs

Why wouldn't dedicated focus upon a problem be beneficial to solving the problem?

You are attempting to argue with what should be common sense.

Squatting with light weight is not recovery. It's stress in a lighter form.

Instead of me going in depth about autogenic inhibition and the like - of which reliable, factual information is readily available, you give your explaination why foam rolling and sports massage is not beneficial to recovery.

I'm sure your controversial theories will be sought after in the world pertaining to physiology where many people who practice these methods on a regular basis with great effect would beg to differ.

Break some ice.

OK, then what is considered recovery?

I have no controversial theories. I am asking you how foam rollers help and what problems are you solving. I am not sure why you feel the need to defend yourself.

"Recovery" is advancement in healing.

Stress and associated damage is the opposite of healing. 

Massage of muscle tissue in any form helps to elleviate tightness working individual trigger points in the muscle which allow the muscle tissue as a whole to work more efficiently usually beyond that of the previous (un-massaged) state.  The collective problems pertaining to the muscle tissue is a direct result of stress.

You specifically asked why sports massage works in an attempt to defend your theory that supplemental work has little use.

Massage is one such plausable method which proves my hypothesis correct.  Accessory / supplemental work does have a use.

I'm simply stating that if you disagree then you'll have to present to me your information (factual or theory) relating to why massage is not effective in recovery.  This is the simple structure of debate.

There's little point in ripping apart heart and lungs and the anatomy of the shoulder and benefits of massage if the ultimate raw argument pertaining to all factors is; "Is accessory work beneficial when performed alongside regular weight training?" of which is the answer is "yes".

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs

"Recovery" is advancement in healing.

Stress and associated damage is the opposite of healing.

Massage of muscle tissue in any form helps to elleviate tightness working individual trigger points in the muscle which allow the muscle tissue as a whole to work more efficiently usually beyond that of the previous (un-massaged) state. The collective problems pertaining to the muscle tissue is a direct result of stress.

You specifically asked why sports massage works in an attempt to defend your theory that supplemental work has little use.

Massage is one such plausable method which proves my hypothesis correct. Accessory / supplemental work does have a use.

I'm simply stating that if you disagree then you'll have to present to me your information (factual or theory) relating to why massage is not effective in recovery. This is the simple structure of debate.

There's little point in ripping apart heart and lungs and the anatomy of the shoulder and benefits of massage if the ultimate raw argument pertaining to all factors is; "Is accessory work beneficial when performed alongside regular weight training?" of which is the answer is "yes".

Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear.

I don't view recovery as recovery of the muscles. This is not very useful for average trainee. Maybe some elite athletes require massage to work on their trigger points or something else.

I view recovery as something more global. Recovery of the soft tissue is only a small part which doesn't matter much IMO to someone who is not a professional athlete.

This is why I think that for the average trainee accessory training is of little use.

Yep, recovery is more than healing muscle tissue.

The benefit a person reaps from massage will depend on style, intensity and rate of recovery which is often reflective of their level of experience.

 I'm impressed how civil you guys kept this.

President of the Emancipation Detoxification. DBB's oldest forum group, punching baby seals since 2/12/08