Fat Burn + Muscle Growth

ORIGINAL: David1991

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

you cant cut your carbs out like that you have to cycle the carbs..IE..full carb days...three quarter carb days and half carb days and they atre cycles according to your body fat measurements...you want to go into a competition at 5 percent or less if possible.....So the advice of just cutting all carbs out can make you flat....and hurt your physique

who was that towards?

 
my bad. it was for redjeep. i had originally agreed with him, but i was thinking about it and that's what i came up with

ORIGINAL: coldfire

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs

Intensive lifting will exercise your cardiovascular system to handle work capacity but not beyond that of the actual demands of the method. Training with intensity conditions your heart to work efficiently at trainng with intensity - nothing more. It does not to train your heart to work with a greater distributed workload. Intensive weight training for 10 years won't allow you to run a marathon.

And why would you need to run a marathon? Strength training keeps your cardiovascular system conditioning just above the average, which is usually enough for what you do.

You wouldn't.  It was an exageration to make a valid point.

I am placing emphasis upon training your body to beyond what is required which I've already mentioned is the entire concept of weight training as a whole.

Yes, the practice of lifting weights makes your body adapt to lifting weights with whatever tempo or rep range you may use, however accessorised cardio keeps the candle burning at the side allowing for conditioning of what is not required in the gym (at least at the moment in time).  Should any conditions change in the future the body won't have to spend as much time easing in, it won't have to adapt into another method of lifting to perform efficiently since you've covered the range with the accessory work.  You've kept your body in preperation.  It's flexible, all round efficiency.

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs
On a more relative note; ask a person who doesn't perform cardio how he copes with high rep work in comparison the person who accessorises with cardio. When you begin to explore more advanced methods of training - namely conjuagate training you'll discover what you assumed to be an efficient weightlifting body actually isn't so efficient afterall.

ORIGINAL: coldfire

Adaption is very specific. You train for strength with low reps, you get better at lower reps. If you want to get good at high rep work you do high rep work, which besides training your cardiovascular system provides peripheral metabolic conditioning that steady state slow cardio fails to provide.

So I wouldn't say that a complete routine should include cardio. It all depends on your goal. Though I would say that crossfit workouts work much better for "cardio" and metabolic conditioning than the conventional way.

Adaption is the reason why accessorised cardio plays a role in training. We try to avoid it.  There's no point in having specific capacity (or muscular efficiency) in the temporary method since it is often subject to change.

Effective athleticism comes from unturning every stone and covering the range in preperation of whats to come or what may never come.

Working at optimum to a level you may never employ doesn't render it as pointless.  It simply allows you to perform effectively at the lower levels where full capacity is not required.

I'm ending my part in this topic on this note:

A complete weighlifting routine doesn't have to include cardio, however a complete "training routine" includes cardio in the same way it includes movement prep and injury prevention.

When was the last time you seen shoulder horns or cuban presses in any routine posted here? Most people are merely "weightlifting" which in itself is only a slice of effective and sensible training.

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

ORIGINAL: David1991

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

you cant cut your carbs out like that you have to cycle the carbs..IE..full carb days...three quarter carb days and half carb days and they atre cycles according to your body fat measurements...you want to go into a competition at 5 percent or less if possible.....So the advice of just cutting all carbs out can make you flat....and hurt your physique

who was that towards?

my bad. it was for redjeep. i had originally agreed with him, but i was thinking about it and that's what i came up with

 
I think you just want to argue. I never said cut out carbs completely. I said lower carbs.

ORIGINAL: RedJeep

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

ORIGINAL: David1991

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

you cant cut your carbs out like that you have to cycle the carbs..IE..full carb days...three quarter carb days and half carb days and they atre cycles according to your body fat measurements...you want to go into a competition at 5 percent or less if possible.....So the advice of just cutting all carbs out can make you flat....and hurt your physique

who was that towards?

my bad. it was for redjeep. i had originally agreed with him, but i was thinking about it and that's what i came up with

I think you just want to argue. I never said cut out carbs completely. I said lower carbs.

 
trust me dude, i don't want to argue.  i never said you said to cut them completely. i was just saying you have to cycle them.
 
this isn't supposed to be an argumentative post. it's just something i realized alittle bit ago

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs
A complete weighlifting routine doesn't have to include cardio, however a complete "training routine" includes cardio in the same way it includes movement prep and injury prevention.

Then how do you define a "training routine"? And what injury prevention are you talking about?

When was the last time you seen shoulder horns or cuban presses in any routine posted here? Most people are merely "weightlifting" which in itself is only a slice of effective and sensible training.

Why do you want to see shoulder horns or cuban presses in every routine? A balanced routine doesn't need them.

I don't quite agree with your point of including cardio to be prepared beyond the usual requirements. It doesn't work that way.

Can you maintain strength, endurance and power at the same level at the same time? No, you can't.

There is a reason you won't see cardio in weightlifters routine. It interferes with power production.

My point is that it all depends on your needs and goals. Steady state cardio is not the best way to improve conditioning, unless your sport is some type of steady state cardio.

Then how do you define a "training routine"? And what injury prevention are you talking about?

A proper training routine covers the range from injury prevention, strength / hypertrophy training, core / PC work, flexibility, focus on recovery and dedicated cardiovascular work.

I gave cuff conditioning as an example of injury prevention.

Why do you want to see shoulder horns or cuban presses in every routine? A balanced routine doesn't need them.

On the contrary every routine should include some form of cuff conditioning regardless if it is balanced or not.  You should work every function (or close to) of the shoulder.  Most training routines even those which are deemed as "balanced", do not accomodate this factor. 

As for cardio, I wasn't suggesting you can have ultimate efficiency in each type of training approach. I was suggesting that you can make marginal improvements by keeping the candle burning at the side.

I'm not quite sure why you think that cardio interferes with power. Regular exclusive exercise of what is the most important muscle in the body, particularly via the "steady state" you refer to has no significant impact upon the central nervous system to the point where it would contribute towards a degrade of strength in weight training.

I'd be repeating myself if I said any more.

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs
On the contrary every routine should include some form of cuff conditioning regardless if it is balanced or not. You should work every function (or close to) of the shoulder. Most training routines even those which are deemed as "balanced", do not accomodate this factor.

As for cardio, I wasn't suggesting you can have ultimate efficiency in each type of training approach. I was suggesting that you can make marginal improvements by keeping the candle burning at the side.

I'm not quite sure why you think that cardio interferes with power.

What kind of function of the shoulder are you training with cuff conditioning exercise, that isn't trained otherwise?

I agree with you about making marginal improvements in every possible aspect as part of a complete routine. What I don't understand is why you insist on long slow endurance training as the way to achieve cardiorespiratory fitness. The depression in O2 saturation produced by a set of 20RM deadlifts is much more stressful for the oxygen transport and utilization systems than aerobic training.

And I know there are researches that support the claim that endurance training interferes with power production in strength/power athletes.

ORIGINAL: coldfire

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs

Intensive lifting will exercise your cardiovascular system to handle work capacity but not beyond that of the actual demands of the method. Training with intensity conditions your heart to work efficiently at trainng with intensity - nothing more. It does not to train your heart to work with a greater distributed workload. Intensive weight training for 10 years won't allow you to run a marathon.

And why would you need to run a marathon? Strength training keeps your cardiovascular system conditioning just above the average, which is usually enough for what you do.

On a more relative note; ask a person who doesn't perform cardio how he copes with high rep work in comparison the person who accessorises with cardio. When you begin to explore more advanced methods of training - namely conjuagate training you'll discover what you assumed to be an efficient weightlifting body actually isn't so efficient afterall.

Adaption is very specific. You train for strength with low reps, you get better at lower reps. If you want to get good at high rep work you do high rep work, which besides training your cardiovascular system provides peripheral metabolic conditioning that steady state slow cardio fails to provide.

So I wouldn't say that a complete routine should include cardio. It all depends on your goal. Though I would say that crossfit workouts work much better for "cardio" and metabolic conditioning than the conventional way.

word. I am always confused when people are bulking, they incorporate cardio. that boggles me sometimes. Sure, a run here and there isnt gonna hurt, but doing a extensive cardio routine and lifting and bulking doesnt mix.

BoommerSooner: Hey bro by the looks of your avatar your a big guy so keep on doing whatever your doing!

"A severed foot is the ultimate stocking-stuffer" "Obsession is what the LAZY use to describe dedication" "You put your faith in Christianity. I put mine in artillery"

What kind of function of the shoulder are you training with cuff conditioning exercise, that isn't trained otherwise?

It depends. As an example; some people lift bars from racks onto the shoulders whilst others righfully lift from the floor and clean into position utlising the rotation of the shoulder (to a certain degree) so it ultimately depends upon the training routine. 

Generally you work the shoulders for the sole purpose of strengthening the very limbs and related connective muscle tissue and tendons) which are utilised in almost every lift ideally covering every articulation regardless if that function is used in your weight training routine or not.

Keeping your shoulders healthy isn't achieved by constantly shifting compious amounts of weight.  This approach is often the cause of injury - not the cure.

It's all well and good following the philosophy of training within training since in many cases this method can prove most beneficial, however there are some cases in which it doesn't

Dedicated cuff work allows for focused, deliberate exercise of the many muscles and tendons via good form involving different approaches (such as Internal and external rotations with elbows tucked laterally).

Theres many methods to improve squat depth inclusive of actually squatting, but we can't rule out (non-squat) stretching and foam roller myofascial exercises which often do make a significant difference.  We wouldn't ask why we are rolling around on a peice of foam since we don't roll around on a peice of foam in training...

With regards to cardio, I must stress again that I'm suggesting that it makes a marginal difference to intensive weight training and makes you generally more efficient.  Let's not forget that I also suggested that accessorised cardio helps to improve the shuttling of nutrients via improved circulation.

I'm out on this one now.  I need to get some work done.

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs

What kind of function of the shoulder are you training with cuff conditioning exercise, that isn't trained otherwise?

It depends. As an example; some people lift bars from racks onto the shoulders whilst others righfully lift from the floor and clean into position utlising the rotation of the shoulder (to a certain degree) so it ultimately depends upon the training routine.

Generally you work the shoulders for the sole purpose of strengthening the very limbs and related connective muscle tissue and tendons) which are utilised in almost every lift ideally covering every articulation regardless if that function is used in your weight training routine or not.

Keeping your shoulders healthy isn't achieved by constantly shifting compious amounts of weight. This approach is often the cause of injury - not the cure.

It's all well and good following the philosophy of training within training since in many cases this method can prove most beneficial, however there are some cases in which it doesn't

Dedicated cuff work allows for focused, deliberate exercise of the many muscles and tendons via good form involving different approaches (such as Internal and external rotations with elbows tucked laterally).

Theres many methods to improve squat depth inclusive of actually squatting, but we can't rule out (non-squat) stretching and foam roller myofascial exercises which often do make a significant difference. We wouldn't ask why we are rolling around on a peice of foam since we don't roll around on a peice of foam in training...

The primary function of external rotators is shoulder stability, which is trained well with overhead pressing. The fact that they can cause rotation when isolated doesn't mean they need to be trained this way.

About the foam roller, if you are doing that after you have good squat depth, I would certainly ask why.

With regards to cardio, I must stress again that I'm suggesting that it makes a marginal difference to intensive weight training and makes you generally more efficient. Let's not forget that my initial suggestion was that accessorised cardio helps to improve the shuttling of nutrients via improved circulation.

Let's make this clear. Are you suggesting that aerobic training is what improves circulation, or any type of training that improves cardiorespiratory fitness will work too?

Hope you have the time to answer.

The primary function of external rotators is shoulder stability, which is trained well with overhead pressing. The fact that they can cause rotation when isolated doesn't mean they need to be trained this way.

Are you suggesting that dedicated cuff conditioning is worthless simply because the external rotators are worked in OHP?

Please elaborate upon your theory that injury prevention practice is actually regular weight training itself.

About the foam roller, if you are doing that after you have good squat depth, I would certainly ask why.

For recovery, maintenance of flexibility (and reflective injury prevention)?

Let's make this clear. Are you suggesting that aerobic training is what improves circulation, or any type of training that improves cardiorespiratory fitness will work too?

Regular practice of all or any type of cardio will improve circulation.

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

ORIGINAL: RedJeep

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

ORIGINAL: David1991

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

you cant cut your carbs out like that you have to cycle the carbs..IE..full carb days...three quarter carb days and half carb days and they atre cycles according to your body fat measurements...you want to go into a competition at 5 percent or less if possible.....So the advice of just cutting all carbs out can make you flat....and hurt your physique

who was that towards?

my bad. it was for redjeep. i had originally agreed with him, but i was thinking about it and that's what i came up with

I think you just want to argue. I never said cut out carbs completely. I said lower carbs.

trust me dude, i don't want to argue.  i never said you said to cut them completely. i was just saying you have to cycle them.

this isn't supposed to be an argumentative post. it's just something i realized alittle bit ago

 
You dont have to cycle either, that is just one way to do it. why do you think that?

ORIGINAL: RedJeep

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

ORIGINAL: RedJeep

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

ORIGINAL: David1991

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

you cant cut your carbs out like that you have to cycle the carbs..IE..full carb days...three quarter carb days and half carb days and they atre cycles according to your body fat measurements...you want to go into a competition at 5 percent or less if possible.....So the advice of just cutting all carbs out can make you flat....and hurt your physique

who was that towards?

my bad. it was for redjeep. i had originally agreed with him, but i was thinking about it and that's what i came up with

I think you just want to argue. I never said cut out carbs completely. I said lower carbs.

trust me dude, i don't want to argue.  i never said you said to cut them completely. i was just saying you have to cycle them.

this isn't supposed to be an argumentative post. it's just something i realized alittle bit ago

You dont have to cycle either, that is just one way to do it. why do you think that?

 
you are absolutely right, yes, you don't have to cycle them, not at all.  but in cutting your carbs alot you'll get flat over a certain period of time because you're not fueling your body.  if you cycle them, you can work off the weight but still maintain muscle.
 
Of course my way would take much, MUCH longer, i think it'd be alittle bit better (if you're patient enought)
 
once again, i'm not trying to start an argument or anything

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

you are absolutely right, yes, you don't have to cycle them, not at all.  but in cutting your carbs alot you'll get flat over a certain period of time because you're not fueling your body.  if you cycle them, you can work off the weight but still maintain muscle.

Of course my way would take much, MUCH longer, i think it'd be alittle bit better (if you're patient enought)

once again, i'm not trying to start an argument or anything

ok first of all people have to stop quoting 9 billion qoutes lol.

i agree with boomer here except for the fact that he said his way will take much MUCH longer.
cycling carbs will allow u to lose fat quickly like any low carb diet would do except it will prevent losing more muscle and "looking flat".  i've recently done NROL FL-1 and FL-2. with 1 i didnt carb cycle and i lost about 1/2lb. of muscle and 1/2lb. of fat.
with 2 i've cycled and i've lost about 4lb. of fat and only about 1/2lb. of muscle.

carb cycling is more efficient and the better option IMO

Duke of the Emancipation Detoxification

ORIGINAL: David1991

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

you are absolutely right, yes, you don't have to cycle them, not at all.  but in cutting your carbs alot you'll get flat over a certain period of time because you're not fueling your body.  if you cycle them, you can work off the weight but still maintain muscle.

Of course my way would take much, MUCH longer, i think it'd be alittle bit better (if you're patient enought)

once again, i'm not trying to start an argument or anything

ok first of all people have to stop quoting 9 billion qoutes lol.

i agree with boomer here except for the fact that he said his way will take much MUCH longer.
cycling carbs will allow u to lose fat quickly like any low carb diet would do except it will prevent losing more muscle and "looking flat".  i've recently done NROL FL-1 and FL-2. with 1 i didnt carb cycle and i lost about 1/2lb. of muscle and 1/2lb. of fat.
with 2 i've cycled and i've lost about 4lb. of fat and only about 1/2lb. of muscle.

carb cycling is more efficient and the better option IMO

 
you're right, i probably over exaggerated the MUCH alittle bit.  but you're right
 
i need to cut a few more pounds off before a competition, so i'm gonna cycle my carbs like that. hope it works