Eccentric and Concentric

ONLY VOTE IF YOU HAVE ANY IDEA PLEASE.
 
We got Tom Venuto on one side and The Muscle Nerd on the other.
 
Fact #1: Do your eccentric reps slow - They both agree on as well as everyone else.
 
Unsolved Fact?? :
 
- Do your concentric reps slow, its the same if not better then slow negative eccentrics, says Tom Venuto.
                     
 - Do your concentric reps as fast as possible, doesnt mean it has to fly up, it can take 2-3 secs if needed as long as you give your best to it, says The Muscle Nerd.
 
So who's got the medal?
 
Tom Venuto- Burn the Fat Feed the Muscle
Jeff- Optimum Anabolics

I don't know why but my heart goes with Tom Venuto, I've always been a fan and I always will. I am supposed to start my OA training from Jeff in Mid September so maybe I'll change my mind.

Im with Jeff, it seems to me that it would make more sence going slow on the eccentric, working mostly slow twitch muscle fibers, and fast on the way up, working mostly fast twitch muscle fibers.

Venuto has posted pics of his body, but Jeff doesn't (at least last time I checked).  I admire Venuto's accomplishments (although I like Jeff's program a lot, too).  If forced to choose, Venuto.  The proof is in the pudding (er, picture).  I think both make good points, and I don't see why we need to choose one or the other--mix it up and let's gain some mass!

i dunno man, i want the best way.

There is no best way.

It's just a variation.  I think doing slow eccentric is a given because if you don't, you just let gravity do 50% of the work on the way down and in the example of the squats video I watched,  you wouldn't want to do an uncontrolled eccentric movement at 315 lbs just letting gravity rip you down.

However!

Slow concentrics can be a major way to boost the intensity.

Take a lower weight and do that and you'll find that you won't need to move up in weight as the lower weight will kick your butt!

Plus slower concentric movements will help build the muscle where exposive movements are standards for power and strength.  Not something the bodybuilder is necessarily concerned with.

Bodybuilding = muscle growth.

Not weight and not strength gains as the #1 priority.

For example, I've done slow eccentric movements ever since.  But on Saturday I did slow concentric for cable rows as well.  It was like a 4031 tempo.

All I hard was 150 lb on the stack.

Was 10x harder then doing the stack at 250 lbs where I expoded with the row and then controlled it downward.

Which is better?

I dunno.  I wouldn't want to do either for the rest of my workouts.  I personally liked doing combos and variations.

Sometimes doing a slower tempo on both and other times doing it explosive.

But I ALWAYS do about a 3-4 second eccentric just because I find it more intense overall and I feel that if you explode on the down you are just letting gravity do the work and are at risk for injury when you ultimately have to stop the weight.

Hard to vote as I don't think either is 100% right all the time or putting one option better then another.

If I was a powerlifter or my goal was strength, then I would want explosive concentric movements right?

i dunno man, i want the best way.

And that will keep you from making the best gains of your life.

Looking for one single movement, one program that will be your golden program.

See what works, try them, mix them up and make your workouts harder thru variations in intensity.

I bet you can take a 30 lb dumbell and do curls that would make you feel more pain then doing a 70 lb dumbbell curl for 4 reps.

For example Max-OT was great!  But I never felt the same pain I did with Optimum Anabolics.

And OA was super.

And when I tried a leg workout that had me doing squats at 225 for 25-30 reps that was harder then any workout I'd done in about 9 months.

Variation man.

It's the newbies (me included at one point) that are always looking for a single solution and routine to a complex system like your body.

Hi everyone...the "Muscle Nerd" here!

When Marc first told me that Tom and I were pitted head to head in bodybuilding principles within the DB forum, I can't say that I was exactly happy about the situation for a couple of reasons...

1.  I have a great amount of respect for Tom, his work, and what he's accomplished and I know how forum conversations can degrade into "so and so doesn't know $#&*!" from loyal users of a program.  I'm hoping that none of the Optimum Anabolics guys follow that path...Tom has a great program! And...

2.  I think the forum readers can get too caught up in the minutia of this one factor and finding the "perfect formula" that they miss the boat on more important elements of building muscle.

In any case, I'll save everyone a lot of debate...

Does Tom's "slow concentric" rep build muscle...YES!

Does my "fast concentric" rep build muscle...YES!

Which one builds it better?  Hmmmm....

Look...there are mountains of evidence on both sides about which works better.  The most important research that you'll find valuable will be "what works better for YOU?"  If you haven't USED (yes...actually USED!) both of our methods in the gym for a few months, and MEASURED (yes...MEASURED!) your results, then please refrain from an opinion.  One sided ones are the worst!  In the end, the basic truth is that what works best for one guy doesn't work best for ALL guys, right?

Now, just so I don't totally stray away from actually giving you a fair assessment of WHY I've found fast concentrics to be the best option for my training program, I'll offer a bit of a simplified explanation...

Your muscle fibers are basically comprised of 2 different types of fibers: Fast Twitch fibers which primarily function as "strength and power" producers because they carry a larger store of creatine phosphate and ATP, your body's main "short term" energy producer; and Slow Twitch fibers which, due to a much larger number of capillaries, have a larger blood supply and have a larger ability to "pump" up the muscle tissue during exercise which will ultimately result in increased thickness of the muscle fibers themselves as capillaries become denser and more blood is pumped through the tissue.

Now, since each muscle fiber has a different function, they also have to be trained in a specific way in order to maximize the stress to the muscle cells.  It's similar in concept to how you train your chest as opposed to how you train your arms.   These muscle groups have different functions in the body so you train them differently, right?   Therefore...

Fast Twitch muscle fibers are best trained with heavy weights and low reps while Slow Twitch fibers require a faster movement for higher reps in order to "pump" more blood into the muscle tissue.  But as another poster pointed out, this is "body building" and it just makes sense to train for BOTH types of muscle fibers in order to maximize size and function.  THIS is why I combine both movements into one repetition.

This is a simplified view and if you'd like a more comprehensive explanation, you can receive the entire chapter of my program that specifically deals with this principle...and yes...it's FREE!

Just go to my home page (www.grow-muscle-now.com) and you'll see a box about mid way down where you can receive via email the free chapter to check it out.

Now...a word of caution here...

Don't let a single concept of your body building plan like rep speed determine the effectiveness of a single program.  The fact is both Tom and I have great programs which cover a much wider range of the factors you need to build muscle and burn fat and which one works for you will be entirely up to your USAGE of the programs and close tracking of how your body responds.

So...to the forum readers...find what works for you through research, trial, error, and success and stick with it!  (Oh, and yes...I've heard the call and have now put a photo up on my site...although I'm nowhere near as pretty as Tom!)

And to Tom...my hat's off to you bro!  Keep up the great work!

Jeff Anderson
The "Muscle Nerd"
www.grow-muscle-now.com

Wow great, the muscle nerd is ON !!!

I bought the OA program and I intend to do it starting in September. I am 100% I will have gains trought this workout technique. I am really happy to see that you are interested in this debate and I would like to thank you for this comment. It's not everyday that we hear from a muscle nerd !!

I would also like to thank Marc for bringing this to your attention !

Maybe we'll have Tom point of view . Marc...we're waiting bro !

I retract my comments about the pics--I don't want to get in a fight with Jeff--Yikes!  Obviously both programs work well for their proponents!!!!  But I stand behind my final comment:  mix it up and gain some mass!!!!!

I did send a message to Tom as well to see if he's interested in replying to this thread.

I basically agree with Jeff.  Do both.  See what works.  There's evidence on both sides.  Some guys will say training 6 days a week, 2x a day is best.  And maybe for them that's true.  It would kill me.  I've tried.

Let's see what Tom has to say.

Thanks for the reply Jeff.  I appreciate that.

Removed Jeff pic per his request.  I think he wanted it as his avatar and not a giant attachment.  I'll see what I can do.

Even tho i didnt vote, I think Ima go with fast concentrics. I guess it really would be workin the fast twitch muscle fibers better. Im on Optimum Anabolics anyway...
 
I would have tried Tom's e-book too but I dont need to lose fat.

I want to buy bonus 1 in OA program.How can I make it?