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Eating after the morning cardio...

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2006/06/22 09:09:51 (permalink)
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Eating after the morning cardio...

Ok, i don't eat before i workout and then cardio in the mornings.  I know this is bad but im more worried about losing weight than gaining strength.  I only drink some water during workign out and after running.  Now the reason to not eat before running is because it makes your body burn through the fat in your body instead of food calories.  Now, after cardio, you are still burning calories for a little while, right?  So, how long after cardio should i wait before i eat breakfast?
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RE: Eating after the morning cardio... 2006/07/02 11:44:02 (permalink)
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The idea behind starved cardio in the morning, is to tap into your fat stores rather than burning carbs that you've just eaten.  It's actually probably a good idea to have  a protein rich breakfast (eggs w/cheese, ham (whatever but no carbs)  so that you have something in you stomach, but no carbs.  If your working out before your cardio it would probably be a really good idea to eat something.  Post cardio/workout you should follow the PWO nutrition info that danmirage has posted all over the place.

I hope this helps,

Nick
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RE: Eating after the morning cardio... 2006/07/03 06:45:09 (permalink)
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It depends if you google this some sites just claim this is a myth. Being on an empty stomach doesn't burn less/more. Infact if you don't eat or drink something you feel weaker and probably can't give a 100%.
danmirage
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RE: Eating after the morning cardio... 2006/07/03 23:10:39 (permalink)
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I am not sure what you do want to see.
 
Do you want to gain muscle, lose fat, get stronger...why train in a fasting state?
 
So, how long after cardio should i wait before i eat breakfast?

When the core temp has come down to near normal.  Usually after 20-30 minutes out to 45 minutes.
 
You are burning muscle and some fat...

Esean!
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Re: RE: Eating after the morning cardio... 2009/01/14 09:44:58 (permalink)
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If your planing to decrease bodyfat and maintaining muscle empty stomach workout is not the best idea!
I Take a protein shake b4 cardio I take 18 grams 100 calories! this Way I dont lose muscle and the rest should be your diet!

AnthonyH644
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Re: RE: Eating after the morning cardio... 2009/01/28 11:30:03 (permalink)
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Man, to me to work out after an 8 hour fast would be a sign of depravity, work out healthy man
yy4u2rel82
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Re: RE: Eating after the morning cardio... 2009/03/03 21:25:10 (permalink)
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It's actually the exact formula to help decrease bodyfat and maintaining muscle.....
Straight from 'Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle' (which I personally think is the Lean Machine Bible):

Early morning fasted cardio: A simple method to increase the fat burning effects of
your cardio by up to 300%

Any time of day that suits your schedule is a good time for cardio. The important
thing is that you just do it. However, many bodybuilders and fitness models believe that
early morning fasted cardio burns more body fat. Although this is still controversial, the
evidence is strong and there are many reasons to consider doing cardio first thing in the
morning on an empty stomach. The argument in favor of fasted early morning cardio goes
something like this:
1. After an overnight 8-12 hour fast, your body's stores of glycogen are depleted and you
burn more fat when glycogen is low.
2. Eating causes a release of insulin. Insulin interferes with the mobilization of body fat.
Less insulin is present in the morning; so more body fat is burned when cardio is done in
the morning.
3. There is less carbohydrate (glucose) in the bloodstream when you wake up after an
overnight fast. With less glucose available, you burn more fat.
4. If you eat immediately before a workout, you have to burn off what you just ate first
before tapping into stored body fat (and insulin is elevated after a meal.)
5. When you do cardio in the morning, your metabolism stays elevated for a period of
time after the workout is over. If you do cardio in the evening, you burn calories during
the session, but you fail to take advantage of the "afterburn" effect because your
metabolic rate drops dramatically as soon as you go to sleep.
6. Morning cardio gives you a feeling of accomplishment and makes you feel great all day
by releasing mood-enhancing endorphins.
7. Morning cardio "energizes" you and "wakes you up."
8. Morning cardio may help regulate your appetite for the rest of the day.
9. Your body’s circadian rhythm adjusts to your morning routine, making it easier to
wake up at the same time every day.
10. You’ll be less likely to "blow off" your workout when it’s out of the way early (like
when you’re exhausted after work or when friends ask you to join them at the pub for
happy hour).
11. You can always "make time" for exercise by setting your alarm earlier in the morning.

A common concern about doing cardio in the fasted state, especially if it’s done
with high intensity, is the possibility of losing muscle. After an overnight fast, glycogen,
blood glucose and insulin are all low. This is an optimum environment for burning fat.
Unfortunately, it may also be an optimum environment for burning muscle because
carbohydrate fuel sources are low and levels of the catabolic stress hormone cortisol are
high. It sounds like morning cardio might be a double-edged sword, but there are ways to
avert muscle loss.
All aerobic exercise will have some effect on building muscle, but as long as you
don’t overdo it, you shouldn’t worry about losing muscle. It's a fact that muscle proteins
are broken down and used for energy during aerobic exercise. But you are constantly
breaking down and re-building muscle tissue anyway. This process is called "protein
turnover" and it’s a daily fact of life. Your goal is to tip the scales slightly in favor of
increasing the anabolic side and reducing the catabolic side with nutrition just enough so
you stay anabolic and you maintain muscle.

Morning cardio is still controversial in academic circles, but in my book, it’s a
sure-fire way to double or even triple the fat burning effects of your cardio. Ask any highlevel
bodybuilder or fitness model when they do their cardio and the chances are good
that they’ll tell you they’re working up a sweat before breakfast early every morning.
---------------------------------------------------
He goes into a lot more detail on the subject, but you get the idea.....
2009-03-03T21:34:03
danmirage
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Re: RE: Eating after the morning cardio... 2009/03/03 21:48:09 (permalink)
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I won't go in to all the things wrong with that.  Too many fallacies and half almost-accuracies.  But a few deserve addressing...

4. If you eat immediately before a workout, you have to burn off what you just ate first
before tapping into stored body fat (and insulin is elevated after a meal.)


No.  Only sugars are burned first.  Also in the morning, in a fasted state, insulin is not spiked as it is during the rest of the day.  Replenishing stores  has priority over storing. If your pre cardio meal consists of proteins/ Amino acids...then it simply prevents the catabolizing of muscle.

2. Eating causes a release of insulin. Insulin interferes with the mobilization of body fat.
Less insulin is present in the morning; so more body fat is burned when cardio is done in
the morning.


This more clearly explains why more muscle is catabolized in the morning.

8. Morning cardio may help regulate your appetite for the rest of the day.

Is that what you want if the goal is building muscle?

A common concern about doing cardio in the fasted state, especially if it’s done
with high intensity
, is the possibility of losing muscle. After an overnight fast, glycogen,
blood glucose and insulin are all low. This is an optimum environment for burning fat.
Unfortunately, it may also be an optimum environment for burning muscle because
carbohydrate fuel sources are low and levels of the catabolic stress hormone cortisol are
high.
It sounds like morning cardio might be a double-edged sword, but there are ways to
avert muscle loss.
All aerobic exercise will have some effect on building muscle (
He means a negative effect), but as long as you
don’t overdo it, you shouldn’t worry about losing muscle. It's a fact that muscle proteins
are broken down and used for energy during aerobic exercise.
But you are constantly
breaking down and re-building muscle tissue anyway. This process is called "protein
turnover" and it’s a daily fact of life. Your goal is to tip the scales slightly in favor of
increasing the anabolic side and reducing the catabolic side with nutrition just enough so
you stay anabolic and you maintain muscle.


Your goal is to avoid catabilism as much as possible and promote anabolism if you want maximal muscle gains.  He is telling you right here that this IS a highly catabolic event and much more than at other times.  Also, if your training and diet are not perfect, that you WILL more than likely lose muscle.

Morning cardio is still controversial in academic circles, but in my book, it’s a
sure-fire way to double or even triple the fat burning effects of your cardio. Ask any highlevel
bodybuilder or fitness model
when they do their cardio and the chances are good
that they’ll tell you they’re working up a sweat before breakfast early every morning.

WHY would we want ask someone who uses performance enhancing drugs that discourage catabolism and encourage anabolism...THEY HAVE NO CLUE how to stay healthy and build muscle!  They don't know how the body responds when there are no drugs present! 



Nm0ney34
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Re: RE: Eating after the morning cardio... 2009/03/03 22:12:06 (permalink)
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So Dan I love reading your stuff, but when would you advise morning cardio (some days I do 2 sessions, morning and afternoon/after my lifting)

Right now im primarily cutting body fat, and have been running steadily in the mornings for a few weeks now taking only BCAA's before the cardio. My other cardio Primarily comes after my weights and is usually HIIT. I figured some steady paced  cardio in the morning with low glycogen levels would be good, now im a little confused.

Should I have a breakfast and then wait before running? Still trying to get the hang of this diet/cardio balance to the lifting...haha.

Thanks, didnt mean to jack the thread, but figured I would ask here anyway

1x20x310 20 rep squat program as of 1/18/12
Back squat 405. Front Squat 325. Clean and Jerk 235. PowerClean 255.  @205  
danmirage
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Re: RE: Eating after the morning cardio... 2009/03/03 22:18:48 (permalink)
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You are doing it correctly.  For stand alone AM cardio, you can take protein 30 minutes prior and/or BCAA/EAAs immediately prior.  You are sparing muscle as best you can by supplying the aminos that the body would break down muscle for, to turn it to glycogen...

If you were doing an AM resistance workout...then eat first.  Otherwise you just lose muscle.  Even the cardio after that will not be good.  Yes, a carb/protein preworkout would suffice.
yy4u2rel82
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Re: RE: Eating after the morning cardio... 2009/03/04 12:02:38 (permalink)
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Well... as he stated, it's a controversial subject.  But.. what he writes is from personal experience and we are talking about a guy that's done this his whole life, is over 40 and less than 4% bodyfat.  To answer your #8, you always want to regulate your eating, IF your goal is what his whole book's purpose is.. to continually burn fat while you build muscle.  Most guys are just interested in building muscle and then cutting later.  I get that, because it was my approach all through my 20s and early 30s.  I packed it on, but at the expense of some extra body fat for sure.  Now.. I'm just interested in looking the best I can year round... not just before a competition.  That's what his program is for... a continued state of being as lean as you can be while always building muscle.

So yes.. regulating your appetite is the only way to achieve this..  knowing exactly how many calories you consume daily, how much fat, protein and carbs.. and adjusting those weekly, based on weekly body fat testing.  It's not the traditional bodybuilder approach.. but it gives  amazing results.  I started at 22% body fat 14 months ago.  I'm at 8% now having gained 11 lbs of lean muscle during that period, and my goal is 4% bf.  I'm eating just over 2400 calories every 3 days and 600 more every 4th.  Just my personal example. 

I think we can all agree there are different ways to achieve results.  Thanks for your input though.  It's good food for thought and helps me to continually question my methods for better results. 
2009-03-04T17:09:55
danmirage
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Re: RE: Eating after the morning cardio... 2009/03/04 19:53:14 (permalink)
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knowing exactly how many calories you consume daily, how much fat, protein and carbs.. and adjusting those weekly, based on weekly body fat testing.  It's not the traditional bodybuilder approach.

I got a laugh from this.  In my decades as a trainer and bodybuilder...that has always been the optimal approach for success.

I just want to note that his program is a PROGRAM and the small bit you posted should not be mistaken as an approach to single out and recommend for success.  You need to get the whole approach to make that succeed.

I am glad to hear that you are in the roughly 15% that his approach works ideally for.

Do you really find that you have to "manage appetite?"  You talked about managing food intake.  But is your appetite an issue?

Just curious about your experience.
yy4u2rel82
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Re: RE: Eating after the morning cardio... 2009/03/05 05:21:31 (permalink)
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I've never heard the success numbers of the program (curious to where you found 15%?), but.. if it is 15%, I don't doubt it..  When I started the program, I was doing it with 3 other guys at work.. we all had been going to the gym together at lunch (luckily our gym is right across the street where we work), and the first week, nobody missed a workout, and we were all eating the same thing.  Second week, one guy said it was going to take too much time and was going back to his standard workouts.. the other two starting getting a little lazy about what they ate, but did great for the most part.  Third and fourth week, they both started missing workouts and both admitted they didn't get up every morning for cardio.. they'd laugh and tell me how great sleep sounded when that alarm went off at 5:30am.  They neither one had to tell me they weren't going to continue after about a month.  I was too determined.. had got way too fat over the years and was sick of it.  I felt like it was my last chance.  I have not.. and do not miss workouts.  In the 14 months I've been doing this, I've missed 2 weeks ... and only 2 weeks (one week I was way too sick to do anything and the other was vacation) of not doing cardio 6 days a week and weights 6 days a week.  I've had maybe.. 10 cheat meals total in that time.  So..  I've taken it to extremes.  I realize that.  But.. when I saw the fat leaving in week 2, it was easy for me to take to.  I still workout with the other 3 guys at lunch.  1 of the 3 is now strictly doing the program again based on seeing my results. 

danmirage
Do you really find that you have to "manage appetite?"  You talked about managing food intake.  But is your appetite an issue?


I honestly can't imagine how appetite could be an issue for anyone.  I tried Body For Life about two years prior to this program and that was why I quit.  I was hungry all the time.  On this program, I get tired of eating so much.  In my early twenties, I ate about 9000 calories a day.. and I really don't know how I did that!  Example day:  But my typical breakfast is 7 egg whites, one whole egg, 1/2 cup of oatmeal (which is a good bowl after you add water and cook) and a piece of wheat toast.  2nd and 3rd meals are usually a 12 ounce can of chicken and Uncle Bens Brown rice mixed together and split in half for those 2 meals.  4th meal is a ton of veggies, 1 lean 4 ounce chuck tender steak, a bunch of shrimp or salmon and a sweet potato, next meal... 2 cans of tuna fish mixed with 2 tbsp wheat bread crumbs, 2 tbsp of minced onions, 1 tbsp fat free miracle whip and 1 small celery stick chopped up.. and more veggies, next meal... bit chicken breast, more shrimp cooked in olive oil...  you get the idea.  I taper off the calories in my meals for the last 2 meals.  I drink 3/4 gallon of water a day.  I am never hungry. 


I just want to note that his program is a PROGRAM and the small bit you posted should not be mistaken as an approach to single out and recommend for success.  You need to get the whole approach to make that succeed.

I could not agree more.  The pdf is 340 pages long.  I couldn't possibly put everything you need to know in my posts. 


I got a laugh from this.  In my decades as a trainer and bodybuilder...that has always been the optimal approach for success.

Laugh all you like.  I've been in the gyms all my life and I know for a fact that weekly body fat testing is not how most bodybuilders do it.  They just eat their ass off until competition is getting close and then start trying to cut.. usually measuring a lot at that point.  It sounds like you're doing it right.. and good for you, but most don't. 

I'm really not trying to argue about anything.  If I was, I'd point out several things I disagree with you on about burning glycogen and fat.  But.. in the end, if you work hard, results will come and if it's working for you then great.  I'm just stating that this program showed me how to achieve results that I didn't dream were possible for me.  Also, on burnthefatinnercircle.com, there are hundreds of posts (with pics) of people who post their success journals, so I'm still finding it hard to believe that only 15% are successful.  There are guys on there that started over 300 lbs and are under 10% body fat. 

Check out the pdf if you like:  http://www.evernote.com/pub/wolfdogg/BFFM_PDF
danmirage
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Re: RE: Eating after the morning cardio... 2009/03/05 09:28:23 (permalink)
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I honestly can't imagine how appetite could be an issue for anyone.

That is has been my experience with clients in effective programs, so I wondered why you said anything about appetite.

Oh yes, just as you point out, I too am aware that many bodybuilders use a less than optimal approach.  But the optimal approach is followed by nearly every trainer or training organization I know of for training bodybuilders, and many many BBs learn to do it themselves and use the technique.  There will always be people who don't use sound approaches!

Just to put my comments in context, I am a Human Performance researcher in Exercise Science.

My goal was not to argue, but point to an issue with the points you introduced out of the context of the program, and to correct some loose fallacies. 

I will admit that his program covers, in large part, what should be the norm for people wanting to make serious body composition changes...but he has a few holes in the approach that seem egregious to me.

The 15% number comes from a part of his approach that research shows is effective for about 1 in 7 people.  He states it is a rule, but neglects covering the need to make a significant individual adjustment based on individual chemistry and genetic factors.

As fortune has it you also have the drive to undertake the rigourous program strictly... and perhaps extremely...making it more effective.

His program is a good template, but it is likely to frustrate a good many people who try it.  For the 1 in 7 that it hits the mark for, it should be effective, even if followed less extremely.  For others, adherence to the program will not be comfortable.  Should they endure and also take the more extreme approach, enduring the discomfort, they should see decent results to a point.

You have worked hard and put your heart into this and your results have been great.  Savor  that.  You should so just as you are doing, and share your success as well as how you attained it!

However, be aware that the approach has a few possible points that are not ideal to follow alone and so please take care about advocating that people use them out of their context. 

Also, while you may disagree, there is a one-size fits all approach here and you should be aware that there are those that this will be perfect for and those it will only work marginally for (another 30% that are types close enough to this target type) and then the rest will likely be frustrated and even uncomfortable without changes to the program...though if they have your drive and resolve, they can see reasonable results.

yy4u2rel82
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Re: RE: Eating after the morning cardio... 2009/03/05 12:56:38 (permalink)
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All sounds good.  I do appreciate and respect your opinion on the matter...as well as your advice.  You've obviously been doing this a long time (and have an education in it) and have a great deal of knowledge on the matter.  As I previously alluded to.. I'm actually researching things you've said in an attempt to tailor my personal plan even moreso.  Things have worked great for me on BFFM, but I have always been under the impression that no one particular prescription for muscle gain/fat loss is perfect.  There's just too many variables.  Plus.. I've been in one of those damn plateaus for the last month!  :) 

Cheers. 
danmirage
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Re: RE: Eating after the morning cardio... 2009/03/05 16:15:50 (permalink)
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Which direction is the plateau in?

Fat loss slowed or muscle gains?

Some of these plateaus can be overcome by changing the focus and training to a different goal entirely, or taking 2 weeks off to allow certain systems to recover.
yy4u2rel82
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Re: RE: Eating after the morning cardio... 2009/03/05 18:27:52 (permalink)
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Yeah.. you're not the first to suggest the time off.  I've been putting it off till March 22nd, when I'll be honeymooning to Hawaii... No better time to relax!  :) 

It's actually been just under 3 weeks and it's the fat loss that's stopped right now.  The muscle gain is there sometimes and sometimes not, but I don't worry about that.  I'm not trying to get any bigger.. just not lose any muscle at all while losing fat. 
danmirage
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Re: RE: Eating after the morning cardio... 2009/03/05 19:24:01 (permalink)
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The body can become resistant to turning over fat stores faster than it replenishes them.  This is a chemical thing that happens. 

You can modulate the diet a bit, vary the fat/protein/carb ratio.

The body is responsive to variations in macronutrient ratios!
But keep in mind that it will adapt to these. 
Slowed loss of fat is one such adaptation (to very low carbs). 
Burning more protein for energy is another (to higher protein).

But you can modulate ratios over time to favor first, muscle gain, then later fat loss.

Also, hormone levels play a role.
If you are overtrained or under-recouperated...fat loss slows.
If you become insulin sensitive (from low carb intake over time) fat loss becomes a challenge.

These are just some examples.

Also, if your calories burned (based on activity and hormone levels) is high and your calories consumed are perceived by the "survival mechanism" as not high enough, you can become resistant to fat burning.

The cure for all of these plateau types is usually to change the focus of training for a bit to get the body over the resistance.

A 1 or 2 more days a week of higher calories for instance, or looking at your caloric ratios and strategically adjusting them.


pushpapal.singh
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Re: RE: Eating after the morning cardio... 2009/03/20 04:21:46 (permalink)
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You can eat after 1 hour of cardio exercise.
pushpapal.singh
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Re: RE: Eating after the morning cardio... 2009/03/25 04:33:21 (permalink)
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You should wait for one hour.
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