Let's all just shut up and squat (or drink beer).

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

yes

Nm0ney34, the general question aside, you said you don't think you can achieve what you need to achieve physically.  I don't know what that is but in general, I would disagree.

How much do you need to put on? 
10 pounds? 20? 30? more?

Seriously...you can gain 1-2+ pounds a week with proper training, recovery and nutrition: balance, volume, and timing.

I have been training myself and others naturally for over 30 years and I have seen this type of gain on people regularly.  Why not you?

As for your intent for asking the question, I am with Thehardway.  I am really not interested in hiding things from the people important in my life.  If I need to hide something, it is a good sign I need to rethink what is going on.

I do think people are, for the most part, being practical when they do not openly tell others that they take steroids.  I know of people who lost promotional contracts for admitting use.  For professionals, there is a great deal of money and the stigma.

However, steroids are antithetical to the reason I bodybuild.
Knowing the deeper science behind steroids just reinforces my point of view.

I also practiced organic farming as a farmer.  Same thinking.

I am also not going to judge other people's choices.  I don't feel the need to project my values on to others, but I am not going to respect your progress as much...again based on what I value.

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I don't use, but I don't have a problem with it. I think if I did I would be selective about who I told only because people are impressionable and if I told other women I used something I would be afraid they would think that's how I got to where I am and they need it as well. Then you have people who have no business using doing it because they saw that you do and your body/strength/performance - I think you have to mind the company around you.

Add me on facebook!

My response was "if compound movements, progressive resistance, and food is considered a steroid consider me guilty

   I LOVE THAT SAYING.SWEET.

DONT BLAME THE PITBULL TRAIN THE PITBULL .BAN THE DEED NOT THE BREED.... OH YES MY GRAMR AND SPELNG SUCK AZZ...I KNOW.. THERE ARE NO BAD DOGS.JUST BAD OWNERS...

doesnt matter at all.even if you tell people what your on a couple people down the road lways comes back to steroid use.they dont see the hard work we put in.they just see the big outcomes..pound them weights

DONT BLAME THE PITBULL TRAIN THE PITBULL .BAN THE DEED NOT THE BREED.... OH YES MY GRAMR AND SPELNG SUCK AZZ...I KNOW.. THERE ARE NO BAD DOGS.JUST BAD OWNERS...

danmirage


Nm0ney34, the general question aside, you said you don't think you can achieve what you need to achieve physically.  I don't know what that is but in general, I would disagree.

How much do you need to put on? 
10 pounds? 20? 30? more?

Seriously...you can gain 1-2+ pounds a week with proper training, recovery and nutrition: balance, volume, and timing.

I have been training myself and others naturally for over 30 years and I have seen this type of gain on people regularly.  Why not you?

As for your intent for asking the question, I am with Thehardway.  I am really not interested in hiding things from the people important in my life.  If I need to hide something, it is a good sign I need to rethink what is going on.

I do think people are, for the most part, being practical when they do not openly tell others that they take steroids.  I know of people who lost promotional contracts for admitting use.  For professionals, there is a great deal of money and the stigma.

However, steroids are antithetical to the reason I bodybuild.
Knowing the deeper science behind steroids just reinforces my point of view.

I also practiced organic farming as a farmer.  Same thinking.

I am also not going to judge other people's choices.  I don't feel the need to project my values on to others, but I am not going to respect your progress as much...again based on what I value.

I think the not telling anyone has been blown a little out of proportion.  My understanding was, by hiding, he was asking if you openly admitted to who ever asked, yes, I do steroids.. Not really caring who knows about it...  It's completely understandable for anyone doing steroids not to openly discuss it or talk about it with just anyone that is curious.. but it's also acceptable and understandable for anyone using to be open with it around close friends and family members..
 
In regards to seeing people gain 1-2 lbs weekly.. I'm not sure where you're from but in my plus 30 years of training I've never seen anyone have natural gains like that. I've seen people gain 1-2 lbs weekly but no more than 25% of that would be lean muscle.   IMO if it were possible for anyone to have those type of gains there would be no need for using steroids. In fact, it would be difficult for someone using anabolics to have those type of gains with more than 70% of it being lean mass.   Genetics are going to play a huge role in how someones body repsonds to diet, exercise and even steroids.  I've seen guys cycle on and off for years with a near perfect training regimen and still not look any better than a guy that trains naturally with superior genetics. I know lots of folks on this board don't like to hear that but unfortunately, that's just the way it is as far as I'm concerned.
 
As far as studies on anabolic steroids that prove them to be detramental when used in a proper manner.. I don't think there are any and if you know of one or more, please post them in this thread because I would certainly be interested in seeing the data..
 
As far as not having the same respect for a steroid user as a natural training person?.. Again, I don't really think steroids can be used as a short cut on the front end of anyones training and truely be effective. Far too often you see guys wanting to start using when they're development isn't anywhere near a natural peak.  The entire reason steroids were introduced into PL and BBing is due to a person reaching a point where they can no longer add thrength and size to their frame in a safe practical manner without having negatitve, sometimes life threatening effects on their body. Simply put, once a body starts decreasing it's production there are a few ways a normal healthy male can slightly increase it's naturral production but not anywhere near the level it needs to be in order to produce lean mass, as a young male would be able to in his mid 20's.   If a person is nearing their late 30's early 40's and wants to continue adding strength and mass, I see nothing at all wrong doing it with anaobolics as long as the person knows what they're doing and has taken all the necessary safety percautions.  Which means having regular blood work done by a doctor. How could I have less respect for someone who is wanting to be healthy....
 
And I'm sure that last statement about being healthy is going to attacked due to all the negative information that has been put out regarding anabolics being unhealthy and causing people to lose their mind and kill people.. not to mention, cancer, tumors, etc...
 
to all.. before you decide to reply with a negative remark regarding the horror stories of anabolics.. at least go do your research and back up what you say.. you might be pleasantly surprised at what you find out.
 
 

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

smoundzou

I'm not sure where you're from but in my plus 30 years of training I've never seen anyone have natural gains like that.
 

Yeah, I agree. I mean for beginners maybe but for someone all natural I don't believe I've heard of that either.. N$ is pretty high up in his training, putting more mass on is going to become more difficult. Not too many people can progress that quick after deadlifting 450lbs. The gains would seem to slow down.

And as mentioned, steroids are misunderstood.. those that abuse them and didn't do their research on them before taking them gave them the bad name.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP

smoundzou

I'm not sure where you're from but in my plus 30 years of training I've never seen anyone have natural gains like that.

Yeah, I agree. I mean for beginners maybe but for someone all natural I don't believe I've heard of that either.. N$ is pretty high up in his training, putting more mass on is going to become more difficult. Not too many people can progress that quick after deadlifting 450lbs. The gains would seem to slow down.

And as mentioned, steroids are misunderstood.. those that abuse them and didn't do their research on them before taking them gave them the bad name.

Yes... go to any gym in the nation and you're sure to find some 20 something year old meathead that trains like a moran, eats like the average BK customer and hammers down strong nasty PH's like there nothing.. doesn't do research, doesn't cycle as he should, mixes different compounds that shouldn't even be taken together and neglects doing any kind of PST... ends up screwing up his entire system  and starts growing breasts like his sister.. those are the idots that shouldn't even be allowed near a gym much less be trusted with a couple of hundred pounds hanging over their head..

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

Haha that is true. I have 2 friends right now, 1 is a genetic freak with like 12% body-fat that claims to be 2%.. he is running D-BOL (genetic freak of nature)... the other just benched 330 on a smith machine and claims to bench 350 on free weights and is running M1T's... guys like that should avoid steroids.. but as mentioned in my earlier posts, there's a difference in someone like that taking steroids and a 40 year old male that 5'10", 220lbs and under 10% body-fat.. just benched 385, squatted 500, deadlifted whatever goes in proportion.. those are huge differences and too many circumstances is never added to equations where someone stereotypes steroids as "right" or "wrong".

As mentioned, I'm nowhere near anti-steroid (when used properly)... keyword being properly and for the most part I agree with smoundzou.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

smoundzou

There is little clinical documentation of investigations of the long term effects of clinical steroid use.  Only short term.  This is for obvious reasons.  I won't paste up any articles that question the safety because these have come under deserved criticism, not because of the conclusions themselves but because of methods or poor science...thus making the conclusions questionable.  It is a fault of science that clinical trials mean more than real life observations and real life observations lack statistical validity, for hopefully obvious reasons.  So, as a scientist I would simply have to say there is no proof either way.  Therefor, the use of the term proper or "safe" use of a steroid is problematic. We might say we agree that this means presumed to be safe use?  Even physicians who prescribe it do not think it is completely safe, thus patients are monitored for their health and safety.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...and there is no shortage of clinical documentation of injury coinciding from steroid use.  For obvious reasons these clinical reports are not a public record.  They are reported to the FDA by the the treating doctors.

Then there is plenty of prejudice, even clinically.

I do, however, have other information which leads me to strongly question the presumption of safety. 

The first is simply the basic biochemistry.  Lets just note that steroids effects are simply to amplify or inhibit processes in the body...these can be good or they can be bad.  You don't get to choose all the effects.  There are processes I would not want excessively amplified or inhibited, that we observe being modified from use. 

Next, I am not at liberty to divulge the blood work of bodybuilders from the 60s+/- that I know or know of.  Let me just say, without starting an unsubstantiated nonsense discussion, that there is both biochemical and literal evidence that there are complications from even "safe" manipulation of the hormonal cascade.  These complications, whether life threatening or not, compromise the state of health in the body.  Now, this is to some extent...an extent that we might discuss, but which is not wholly understood yet.  Some effects, such as exaggerated enlargement of heart muscle tissue, can certainly be life threatening.  Other effects may be benign.

Non-the-less, neither the experts in the field, nor I, nor you can say with certainty that it is safe, and we should be cautious to accept that it is.    There is a researcher who is really at the forefront of advocating steroid use who believes it can be safe for some people under clinical application, but he goes on to make many warnings.  Do note this careful use of language.  Even he is not certain, is reserved.

Many people have lived what they felt were healthy lives on and off steroids.  Should there be a question of quality of life, Clinical use, that is legal use, of steroids is a better option due to the monitoring of specific individual measures of health.

We know that legality is based on abuses and very serious issues having resulted.
Legality in sport extends further in an attempt to maintain fairness.
What one does to impress others or for ones own enjoyment...well that is another matter.

I am not going to say it is right or wrong. 

In sport, I would say it is not sporting to break the rules, especially when they are assumed to be followed, such as "juicing" athletes who compete in tested events.  however, when there is money and prestige, then we might assume there is the possibility we will have to deal with it.

So, yes, I have a little more respect for the results of the natural bodybuilders who build amazing physiques than those who use amazing drugs (sorry, that was not meant to be derogatory) and work equally as hard but achieve the gargantuan physiques.  The work was perhaps equal.  But because I aspire to a natural physique, I admire the natural athlete more.  That is all.  I look to the gargantuan physiques and tell my body...you can do that too.  I don't, however esteem the physique as highly, again based on my own value system.

In regards to seeing people gain 1-2 lbs weekly.. I'm not sure where you're from but in my plus 30 years of training I've never seen anyone have natural gains like that. I've seen people gain 1-2 lbs weekly but no more than 25% of that would be lean muscle.

Lets be very clear that we are talking when we are talking about mass gains.  If you are 160 and 15% and you gain 30 pounds in 20 weeks, that will mean it can be 25-30 pounds of lean mass.

You can be 190 and have a fat mass of 24 or a fat mass of 29...so 13-15% fat mass.

However, if you gain 30 pounds of lean mass in 20 weeks that could mean you are 190 to maybe 195+  again 13% to 16%+ fat mass

What is lean mass?  Anything that is not fat mass.
It is bone, organs, blood, and yes water, and skeletal muscle, tendon, ligament...

I have seen these gains over an over with people who I have trained, who monitored gains weekly, ate disciplined, and modulated training and diet to maintain gains.  A certain training group (APEX) has documented thousands upon thousands of clients achieving these results for decades...seasoned bodybuilders and novice.  The first time I had these results consistently (after training for over a decade), Golds Gym was training me using APEX.  Now the approach is common.

They have verified the results with Hydrostatic, calipers, electrical impedance, dexa, bodpod...

but I have seen it so many times on those around me that it seems ridiculous that you criticize it.

It takes discipline and hard work.  Genetics play a very small role and we can manipulate almost all the ways genetics express themselves.

The main limitations I have seen are:
First knowledge - how to achieve this with your unique chemistry
Second discipline - It is not easy.  You have to do your part.  I tell clients I can guarantee results if they do their part.
Third...this is the one that is challenging to manipulate...the body has a sort of set point for weight.  Go beyond that and it has to adjust that set point.  When it is not adjusted, there is discomfort and it can get more challenging to gain weight.  However, what I found is that this is usually at about 30 pounds of lean mass per cycle of about 45 weeks.  That means that the optimal ongoing gains average out to about 2/3 lb lean mass per week.  But they can be had in 1-2 + pound increments.

So the average over time at 2/3 per week cycling training, diet, etc... means about 35 per year.  Can you gain more per year?  Absolutely.  I have gained over 40 pounds in a year.

Now at the top of your game...does it get harder?  Sure.  But how "high" does N$ need to go?  And as far as muscle gains, I see he has nice muscle, but I think he can gain much more.  I would not put him any where near the top of his game.  He is strong, but remember that strength and hypertrophy do not go absolutely hand it hand...if he needs mass...then that is specific training/eating/recovery that he can incorporate.

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What danmirage said!  His views mirror mine EXACTLY!  And he put it much better than I ever could!  ;)

But not everyone can put in the time it takes to prepare food etc etc etc that it takes to get those kinds of results imo...if all i had to all day was cook eat, sleep, workout repeat life would be made..you of all people can understand that dan being a student and all.

YOU GOTTA EAT BIG, TO BE BIG!!

NASM certified trainer
NFPT certified trainer

Winter Bulk goal:245-250 by dec 31
Current weight: 235

But not everyone can put in the time it takes
Here we go again.  I don't buy it. 
I spent less time preparing food as a BB than I do as a student!
Have you ever done it?

IF you don't have the time to eat and train...then you won't get bigger.

If you want to get bigger, you eat and train and rest.
It takes the same time to prepare a days food as it does to prepare 1 meal.
You simply pack the rest and eat it later only there is no prep time.
Or you use meal replacements.  People can drink a coffee or a coke...drink a meal replacement.

As a trainer, one goal is to help people see how they DO have time to accomplish their dreams and goals.  The first thing people would tell me is they don't have time to do what they hired me for....ie lose fat or gain muscle.  Then we sit down and they show me how they can find the time. 

Sometimes, the last thing they would tell me is how amazed they were that they have so much more time and energy to enjoy life.

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Well the answer to your question is short and long...

I want to have enough strength/mass to have a chance at playing college/some form of professional football somewhere.

Thats the short answer.

My ultimate goal size wise is 210-220 @ or < 10% BF. So right now I would need to add 15 or so pounds of LBM and lose some fat.

Now I dont know everything, and in fact I keep learning all the time...nutrition probably is my weakest link when it comes to knowledge about how to manipulate the body into producing the results I want...

But I bust my ass week in and week out, and I just dont ever see the results of 1-2 pounds a week. Not that im a skeptic because I know you really know your stuff, but either I just dont understand what im doing fully yet, or my genetics just wont let me gain that fast.

Truth be told I have gained ALOT within this past year and some, I would venture I have put on a good 25-30 pounds of LBM in that time, dropped BF but its still not where I want it too be.

And it probably is because I just dont understand the body as a whole yet, let a lone all the macro and tiny pieces to the puzzle. I mean you went to school and have studied/trained for many years...I feel lost when I read about determining proper nutritional %'s food timing, etc...

I am going back to school for C&M biology, so hopefully I will begin to understand aspects of the body and processes a little better in time...but I digress.

I mean training wise I still dont fully understand my own body. When to deload/rest, when to really push it...I mean im learning more, but it seems like its so easy to screw things up sometimes.

I mean you read articles, study and practice good programming and nutrition and sometimes it just doesnt seem like enough...like im still doing something wrong from training to nutrition to cardio to rest.

like I said all I know is I bust my ass in the gym, eating 90% clean...and the 10% I would say is still not bad. (No candy, sugar, pop or any of that crap)

I work a night time weekend job where I work from 6pm-3am...so my sleep pattern is rather borked...and that has crossed my mind as a culprit for keeping me from maximal gains, but I cant prove it... I generally stay care-free and handle stressful situations with firmness and precision. But I do deal with a good amount of stress.

Anyway, I am proud of what I have accomplished without steroids...I really am. But I really want to give that "dream" a shot, and me being bigger/faster/stronger is really an essential aspect. I just dont know if I can accomplish what I want without them...then theres the fact that nearly everyone who plays takes them, or a good amount do, but thats another discussion.

I really didnt want this to turn into "i want to use" thread. But thats generally how I feel atm give or take, I rambled on for sometime im sure I forgot something.

danmirage


Nm0ney34, the general question aside, you said you don't think you can achieve what you need to achieve physically.  I don't know what that is but in general, I would disagree.

How much do you need to put on? 
10 pounds? 20? 30? more?

Seriously...you can gain 1-2+ pounds a week with proper training, recovery and nutrition: balance, volume, and timing.

I have been training myself and others naturally for over 30 years and I have seen this type of gain on people regularly.  Why not you?

As for your intent for asking the question, I am with Thehardway.  I am really not interested in hiding things from the people important in my life.  If I need to hide something, it is a good sign I need to rethink what is going on.

I do think people are, for the most part, being practical when they do not openly tell others that they take steroids.  I know of people who lost promotional contracts for admitting use.  For professionals, there is a great deal of money and the stigma.

However, steroids are antithetical to the reason I bodybuild.
Knowing the deeper science behind steroids just reinforces my point of view.

I also practiced organic farming as a farmer.  Same thinking.

I am also not going to judge other people's choices.  I don't feel the need to project my values on to others, but I am not going to respect your progress as much...again based on what I value.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

He without sin casts the first stone"

Virt can we have a picture of Twisted Link stoning someone lol

''If one is after quick results one never learns an art.''

Erich Fromm

i have absolutely no intention of using until i reach my natural physical limits. until i cant improve my strength with diet, blood, sweat and tears and good sleep, i will be doing everything naturally. if i reach a plateau that i cant overcome, i will consider upping my game.
 if someone asked, id tell them that i did all i could naturally.

Bench Press Max - 170kg @ 100kg
Squat Max - 220kg @100kg
Deadlift Max - 275kg @100kg

Weight - 90kg

I suppose using steroids would depend on why I was lifting and exercising.  If I was working out simply to look good and try and stay healthy and fit, I would not consider using them.  I think anyone can lift, eat, sleep and look good and stay fit.  You may or may not get as big or strong as you would like by going totally natural, but I think anyone could tell that you put in the work in the gym and you don't look like the average Joe and, you will stay fit and healthy.  But, if I was working out primarily for semi-pro or pro sports or for economic gain, I'd would definitely consider it.  But, at the same time, I would probably hide it from all but my closest friends/family.  There is no way around it, there is a stigma attached, I don't think anyone can argue that there isn't.

Nope, she sees the bank statements :)

Seriously though, I'm in the Air Force so I am pretty limited to what I can take anyways so there's not much to hide or keep from her.

Question though, do you think someone could reach top levels of powerlifting or strongman naturally?  I know you won't get somoene Coleman size naturally, simply because even if a person got that much muscle naturally they could never maintain it while shedding the massive amount of fat that would end up being present.

http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/Seos-Log-2008-m442008.aspx

You mixed a few things into that question...powerlifting, strongman, and Non-tested Pro Bodybuilder.

However, what do you feel is "top level?"
Do you want to compete at the top of the non-natural ranks?
Unspoken in your question is a disregard for distinguishing between Non-natural vs Natural.
Or, more simply, striving to be at the top of YOUR game.

There are Tested Pro Bodybuilders in the natural organizations.
I don't know about the other two. 

I have seen that people can become quite strong as natural athletes.
The powerlifters I trained with in Okinawa were natural and quite strong, amazingly so.
Some of the most awesome BB physiques I have ever seen in person were at the natural bodybuilding events.

As for Coleman (and his like), Coleman was an incredibly disciplined athlete.  He wanted to win.  He wanted the money.  He was ready to say yes and do what he had to do to get it...like many before him.  He was willing to do what he had to do to be the biggest and baddest, knowingly and admittedly at the risk to his health.  That was his call to make.

Yes he was massive, but was that commendable?  Do you think it should be emulated?

If anyone wants to be that big, you need to work that hard and be that disciplined...even if you take the most cutting edge stuff.

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do i hide what im on? no but i will say im going to start my first cycle in about a month and see where it gets me... hopefully to 245...

No, but I might if I was taking something illegal.

"In heaven, all the interesting people are missing." Friedrich Nietzsche

"Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted" John Lennon

I would consider Epistane to see if it could cure my mild case of gynecomastia. I've heard it can at least decrease it.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I would consider Epistane to see if it could cure my mild case of gynecomastia. I've heard it can at least decrease it.

 
Did **** all for mine, you want to try arimidex or letrozole last resort before surgery.

''If one is after quick results one never learns an art.''

Erich Fromm

danmirage


You mixed a few things into that question...powerlifting, strongman, and Non-tested Pro Bodybuilder.

However, what do you feel is "top level?"
Do you want to compete at the top of the non-natural ranks?
Unspoken in your question is a disregard for distinguishing between Non-natural vs Natural.
Or, more simply, striving to be at the top of YOUR game.

There are Tested Pro Bodybuilders in the natural organizations.
I don't know about the other two. 

I have seen that people can become quite strong as natural athletes.
The powerlifters I trained with in Okinawa were natural and quite strong, amazingly so.
Some of the most awesome BB physiques I have ever seen in person were at the natural bodybuilding events.

As for Coleman (and his like), Coleman was an incredibly disciplined athlete.  He wanted to win.  He wanted the money.  He was ready to say yes and do what he had to do to get it...like many before him.  He was willing to do what he had to do to be the biggest and baddest, knowingly and admittedly at the risk to his health.  That was his call to make.

Yes he was massive, but was that commendable?  Do you think it should be emulated?

If anyone wants to be that big, you need to work that hard and be that disciplined...even if you take the most cutting edge stuff.

Yeah it was pretty vague.  But I was thinking to be able to compete in pro competition against people that are juicing.  Look at powerlifting in gear, people benching 900+ lbs with the right equipment, squatting over 1100. A lot of the things I have heard with steroids is being able to recover much quicker and to be able to push harder,  I would think a natural lifter that was careful enough to avoid injuries and stay in the game longer could eventually reach close to that level before age becomes a limiting factor. I dunno, what do you think?

http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/Seos-Log-2008-m442008.aspx

I get your point.  I think that that is true. 

If it is not a tested event and If one guy is juicing and another is not...and they have the same potential and are at the same level of competition including discipline, training, recovery, etc... I believe the juicer is quite likely to be stronger.

But it does not take long to get to 90% of your best...its the other 10% that you have to be smart about!

There are so many ways people can have an edge these days...even the cloths, right?

These are the hard questions. N$ put his foot right in it.

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Soccerking3000


do i hide what im on? no but i will say im going to start my first cycle in about a month and see where it gets me... hopefully to 245...

how much do you weigh now? if youre below 230 your first cycle will get you nowhere near 245

Bench Press Max - 170kg @ 100kg
Squat Max - 220kg @100kg
Deadlift Max - 275kg @100kg

Weight - 90kg

i am 230ish give or take depending on the day and i dont plan on doing anything illegal either for the cycle...

AdamScott

I would consider Epistane to see if it could cure my mild case of gynecomastia. I've heard it can at least decrease it.

 
Did **** all for mine, you want to try arimidex or letrozole last resort before surgery.

I've just had a puffiness problem that goes away when my nipples are hard. Weight-loss itself may even cure it.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant