Determining Maintenance Level Caloric Needs

Dan,
 
I've read your post on "How to determine how many calories a day you need" located here:
 
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/How-Many-Calories-Do-You-Need-Calorie-Calculators--Includes-Quick-Spreadsheet-Too-m45013.aspx
 
This seems to be the first step in setting up the right diet to achieve your goals.
 
I've used the BMR and Harris-Benedict formulas to calculate my own personal maintenance level. At age 40, 6-2, 208 with moderate to hard activity I calculate my average daily caloric need to be between 3134 and 3490.
 
So, theoretically, to lose fat I'd probably need to consumer 2650 and to gain I'd need to jump to around 3900.
 
I have an issue with result of this calculation: Historically, I have not come remotely close to averaging 3000 calories per day.
 
A little history may explain some of the above issues:
 
1. Previous to one month ago, I never ate any breakfast. Never. My first meal of the day was usually lunch. And this was after an 11 am workout.
2. Avg # Meals: Forget 4-6. It's probably been lunch and dinner...followed by snacks.
3. Understanding the above, I'd bet my caloric intake was probably 2200-2600, with me eating more as the day progresses. And unfortunately, eating crap food at the end of the evening.
4. Keto: A while back, I did a keto diet. I went from 225 to 185. Since this keto diet (many years ago) I think I am "afraid of carbs."
5. One thing I have done is try and consumer 1g of protien per lb of bodyweight. This may have helped me gain what muscle I do have despite doing everything else wrong.
 
My hypothesis on the situation: I've conditioned my body to starve due to a horrible diet so I don't need as many calories. This has prevented me from making significant muscle gains and has also prevented me from eliminating some annoying fat around the mid-section.
 
Sound right?
 
The only other reason I can think of is something medical. Don't want to go there.
 
Now, since mid-January, I've been making a concerned effort to try and eat 4-6 meals a day, actually eat a BREAKFAST (oatmeal, banana), increase the veggies, etc. My average caloric intake per fitday has been 2600. And this has been a good (or better) 2600 calories than previously. I feel like I am eating more and my weight has remained in a range of 206-208.
 
I want to build muscle and slowly melt away some fat, but to do that I need to land on this elusive maintenance level. I feel like the current calculation is a relic of past behavior and now I am working towards my REAL level...a level I can work from accurately.
 
Any thoughts on how I should progress here would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
 
KY
 
 
 
 
 
 

Most of your assumptions are sound.

you trained your body to respond to a certain regimen.  The body responded by sparing fat and storing fat to insure its future.

Take a breath.   It takes a little bit to switch the chemical environment in the body to be efficient and any new regimen.

The caloric calculators are just loose estimates. 

It is always better to start where you are and progress from there by gradually instituting better and better choices.

To gain mass?  The one key for this is that whatever you do needs to be progressive.

Your diet?  Well, don't fear carbs anymore.  You were more afraid of water weight gains and a hyper response to carbs from your pancrease...that would be the production of insulin and its ability to cause the body to store what you eat.

Now, you WANT the insulin.  It is a growth hormone and can stimulate the storage of substrates through building muscle!

2600 calories is a fine starting place for you.  Your thyroid and other energy systems will come on line in a few weeks and start to demand more.  When the goal is muscle gain, always start with the LOWEST calories you can and gradually progress.

If you are using calipers (see the discussion in my gaining mass link below) to track gains, then you can advance calories with full knowledge of what your gains are from.

If not, then rely on regular photos, girth measurements, the fit of cloths...but NOT the scale.

The scale is only the pull of gravity on your body and to understand it you need to know how much is lean and how much is fat mass.  Without that information, it is really not very helpful.  You may find you are losing or gaining weight but not know you are gaining muscle and losing fat.

To lose fat you would first stay at the same calories and slightly vary the % of macronutrients.

To find your long term maintenance will  mean finding the ratio of macronutrients that you respond best to.

To gain muscle optimally, you need plenty of good fats (15-30% of your diet), good sources of carbs (45-70%) and good sources of complete protein (15-25%).

Read the section on meal planning in the gaining muscle section.  Veggies (or fruit) with every meal.  Plenty of water.  Proper recovery time and proper frequency of training. Naps.  A multi.  Pre and post workout nutrition.

Make a plan for 8-12 weeks of training with non linear progressions (or use one of the progressive plans such as those at the bottom of the gaining mass post), track your progress, modify diet and training accordingly, and enjoy the feeling!!!

Start by gaining muscle.  Perhaps use more vegetable and less fruit for the majority of your beals.

After your first period of 8-12 weeks, you should see the change...then decide where you want to take it!  It is besst to have a solid picture in your head and on paper of where you want to go!

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Dan,
 
Thanks for the reply.
 
A good 2400-2600 calories seems about right about now. That's what I've been shooting for...and I'm waiting for my body to "demand more" as you say.
 
You say to "start by gaining muscle." I've been told by others on other boards (based on my photo) that I should cut...that more or less I have some decent muscle there to work with but I need tightening up. So the advice from others: Cut calories to say, 2100-2200 and go "heavy weight and low reps."
 
I've been thinking that may be a tad dumb -- the cut calories that is. In my mind, it would work against me first finding my true maintenance and getting my body in the groove and eventually "catching up" (which maybe means my body demans more calories). I don't really want to lose the muscle I have by eating too little. My thought was to stick at 2500-2600 but go with the same routine (which right now is a combo of 5 x 5 and Max Ot). I'm hoping that I can continue to build muscle slowly and then burn fat as my body starts to catch up, get this, and demand more. I don't mind if this takes time.
 
I'd be curious what you'd think of this approach.
 
Thanks again.
 
KY
 
 

I disagree with the others in principle.  Since you have not regulated your metabolism and taken control of your physique, cutting is a bad idea.  Also, dropping calories to cut is a formula for muscle loss.

5x5 is a strength routine and your responses to it will be such.  Max ot is not a beginning routine.

You know your history best. 

This will sound unconventional to you, but my basis is from science backed effective, long term approaches.

Initially, I would start at a more modest 8-12 rep program.
Start with the LEAST TRAINING AND INTENSITY THAT YOU CAN!!!

I would recommend that for a few weeks doing different exercises each session and training the whole body with minimal sets (1-2 sets working the full body each day in 40 minutes or less) for a week or two. 

Next I would vary the training constantly.   Sometimes reps in the 15-20 range.  Sometimes heavier and 6-8 rep range.  Principally compound movements.

I would the progress to something more dynamic after 4-6 weeks of setting a baseline and taking a week off.  Something like the 3-day training in the gaining mass thread.  It is very dynamic and progressive in a no linear fashion and  this is a KEY POINT for ongoing muscle gains.  Your training should have a non-linear progression component!

Now, lets talk a tiny bit about something...your focus.

If you have a goal, this is a much more effective endeavor.
You can easily gain muscle and then modulate the diet to spur on fat loss.  But if you have a goal, then you can really apply your efforts in a more focused manner.

To make the diet leaner for you, use less fruit, less processed food, less sugar, alcohol, etc.  That can help you progress in a leaner fashion.

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Good. My gut said that cutting was a bad idea.
 
I feel much better about the approach to diet now. That's the key. My next step is figuring out the meals...that seems to be the challenge. I always seem to be scrambling for food.
 
At any rate, this is a huge improvement for a guy who failed to eat a morsel of food before noon for years.
 
As for routine, would the 5 x 5 meets Max ot not help me achieve the goal of muscle gain and fat loss? I like the idea of going heavy with low reps...it's something I haven't tried to do consistently. And after a couple sessions I can feel it. I feel like I"ve been in the 8-12 rep range for years. (That said, I was doing pyramids for the most part).
 
I do like the idea of the three day training, full body routine. Can see how it progresses nicely. Six exercises. Wow.
 
Thanks for all the advice here. You've pointed me in the right direction for sure.
 
KY

If those programs are a progression for you AND they have built in them a constant variation in program progression, then I think they would be ok.

Max ot is a PROGRAM not something to borrow parts from.  It has built in progressions and is a purposeful design.

Some 5x5 systems have progression and design.

If what you plan to do does not have a constant variation in program design, consider sitting for a half hour and mapping out 8-12 weeks of training progression and variation.

To make these strength intensive programs yield muscle gains, you need to keep and eye on your caliper and calories.  These strength intensive programs are not ideal for muscle gains by themselves, but cycling your training through strength training is very important and CAN be a nice mass gaining strategy.

To keep from gaining fat, in addition to the comment above, you want to watch the quality of food you take in.

Diet is not so challenging if you can stand simplicity.  If you love variation in foods...then you want to sit down and make a template.

If you need to vary your foods daily, what meals can you keep similar?

For example:

Making a grid with 7 days of meals ...then specifying the actual recipe for a given meal.  This also helps you shop weekly and get what you need.  Having what you need on hand  (and even if you pre cook it all on one day as I usually do) ...insures you don't have to scramble.

Meal 1
Oatmeal
Eggs
raisins
Apple
Almonds
Flax meal
Protein

Meal 2
Wrap
Turkey  (roasted ahead of time, enough for a week)
Spinach, tomato, sprouts
Mayo, mustard, etc

Meal 3
Rice (made ahead in bulk and resteamed)
Chicken (ie breasts and thighs made ahead for the week)
Grean Beans (fresh or steamed or oven roasted with olive oil and garlic, etc)


Meal 4
Quinoa
Beef (roasted ahead and sliced to heat)
Salad with Carrots, peppers, celery etc

(Meal 5)
Pre work out carbs+protein/BCAA/EAA
Post Work out carbs+protein/BCAA/EAA

Meal 6
Baked Sweet Potato
Turkey or fish
Broccoli

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Dan,
 
We're probably getting off the track here since this started out as a diet thread, but...
 
...based on your comments I'm wondering if these strength programs are right for me understanding my goals. If there are above average risks for fat gain because I screw it up, then maybe I should shy away.
 
To be honest, I think I'm confused between what "strength" vs "muscle building" programs provide. Major differences seem to be rep ranges and rest periods. Bottom line: I'm all for the one that gives me the best chances of gaining muscle and burning fat.
 
Your three day full body seems like it combines all of the above which is interesting due to the variations. I also like how you can "pick 4 compound exercises" and then "two isolations." Wondering if it would be "against the rules" to do a split with this. Something like, 1-push pull vertical, 2. Legs/arms, 3. push pull horizontal. Then, change the #sets/reps from week to week.
 
Apologize for the never ending inquiry.
 
Hey, it's March 1 tmrw. Good time to start things off on the right foot.
 
Thanks again.
 
KY

Again, the 3-Day is a program that has been thought out by a well trained student of exercise science and neuroscience...until you understand the concept and method of variation he proposes, don't mess with it.  And no, the push-pull does not give you the same results if you did it.  you lose the benefit from increase in velocity of recovery cycle vs intensity.

You can do the strength program if it is a change for you.  plan for 6-8 weeks of it with continuous variation and then week off.   Then switch!

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Thanks Dan.
 
See you in 6-8 weeks.
 
KY

Hey Dan,
Not sure if you're still checking in on this now that the thread is moved, but I gotta tell you...I think this diet thing may be starting to pick up steam!
 
I've been griping forever about not being able to consumer 2500 calories. Well, my breakfast appetite has picked up, eating more carbs, eating 4 meals (can't do 6) every three hours, etc. The result: I'm probably up to 2800...easy...and I can't say that I'm stuffed.
 
As you said, I think my body is starting to demand more.
 
Feels good.
 
Now body...respond.
 
Thanks for the help.
 
KY

Remember, start with the LOWEST calories that will get you gains and slowly increase as your gains go up!

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Absolutely.
 
Per various calculations, it would seem I need 3100+ calories per day for maintenance. I have no intention of just jumping there just because I think my body is getting in the groove. I'm just finding that I'm actually hungrier now which is shocking. Result: I've basically ratcheted up intake from 2500-2600 to 2700-2800.
 
I used to eat 2 meals a day (lunch and dinner) and now have moved to 4 meals per day -- breakfast, lunch, afternoon snack, dinner -- where calories are pretty much evenly distributed. I figure I'll be here for a while.
 
KY