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[Deleted] - 1/15/2007 9:31:15 AM
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RE: Stacking these supps? - 1/15/2007 10:46:34 AM
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lakers124
Posts: 447
Joined: 6/19/2006
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you can add in a fat burner to the bsn stack and i took on whey with my bsn stack as well and didnt notice any diminshed effects from the nitrix
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current stack:
Xceed
CytoSport Whey
Syntha 6
fish oil
multi
currently:
Mario Williams workout
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RE: Stacking these supps? - 1/15/2007 11:50:13 AM
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Avaric3
Posts: 1774
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the whey wont effect nitrix, dont worry about it. as far as adding methyl ripped, thats a lot of caffeine between that and the no-x. go w/ something non-stim like mp or vaporize
< Message edited by Avaric3 -- 1/15/2007 11:51:19 AM >
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IM BACK AND BETTER THAN EVER!!!!!
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RE: Stacking these supps? - 1/15/2007 8:31:07 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6023
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Can you take those together? Sure. Either. Other than the stimulants (caffeine) as noted by avaric there are very few overlaps in nutrients. There are MANY questionable ingredients and unsupported claims made on the products..so it makes one wonder why exactly you chose to combine these products. What did you hope to achieve?
I have to assume your goal is fat loss? Or lean muscle gains?
(Stick with me while I try to give a complete answer!)
So, you are looking at these "magic formula" to "rip the fat off?"
My first hope is that you understand how fat is burned...to reiterate...
"Lets clear the air on what "lose fat" means. Fat loss can be described as a 3-step process in the body. First you have to liberate fat from a fat cell, then you have to transport the fat to a muscle, then the fat has to be burned in the muscle. Liberate means that the chemical environment in the body has to be right for fat release. That means your diet must include enough of the right foods so your pancreas is producing the right chemicals and so your body and brain think you know how to take care of them. Transport means that the systems of transport are healthy and vibrant and the demand for energy is high (that is called metabolism, which we create!!) Burned means that muscle, where fat is burned in the body (that basically means muscle IS metabolism), is demanding energy on an ongoing basis. Challenging muscle through progressive resistance training will do this...especially during the hours when you are not in the gym. "
(I discuss that more in the Losing Fat Link in my sig.)
From a normal program of optimal diet and exercise you can expect to lose 1/2 to 2 pounds of fat a week.
No matter what supplements you use, you must FIRST have the basic foundation in place for fat loss to be optimal.
Just to be clear what I mean, supplements do not burn fat. Muscle burns fat. All a supplement can do, at best, in relation to burning fat is to enhance the bodies ability to burn fat. It has to do this in one of the 3 basic steps mentioned above.
That is to say, either it enhances liberation, it enhances transport or it enhances burning, or some combination of those steps.
(On the other side of the equation, one could also avoid excess fat storage...)
Before you look at a supplement, it is advisable that you have ensured that all the foundations for fat loss are taken care of and that you are already seeing results.
That's right. You should already be able to attain progress on the results you are looking for; be they fat loss, muscle gain, or some combination of the two.
If you can not progress, then some part of the basic foundation for your goal is not in place, and a supplement is not very likely to be able to enhance your progress.
What are those foundations?
The Appropriate nutrition for your goal and for your individual chemistry
Progressive resistance training
Moderate aerobic exercise (not excessive except perhaps for brief periods when cutting)
8 hours sleep
Minimal stress
Adequate water intake (amount in ounces = your weight in pounds x .55)
Keep the resistance training under an hour
Do not over train
Don't miss a meal
A multivitamin for optimal nutrition
Also consider
Antioxidants for cellular protection
Omega 3 oil intake to balance omega 6-9 intake
Pro-Biotics to enhance nutrient availability
Now you also want to observe some of the pro-anabolic practices (and avoid anti-anabolic practices!)
1. Performing short, high intensity workouts lasting only 20-40 minutes.
2. Double splitting your weight training. Do two short sessions (i.e. chest in the morning and triceps in the evening) lasting about 30 to 40 minutes each instead of one long workout.
3. Progressively increasing workout intensity, but not duration.
4. Allowing sufficient recovery time between workouts (do not lift more than two days in a row).
5. Getting eight hours of sound, uninterrupted sleep (or whatever amount you've found keeps you rested and recovered).
6. Taking a 30-60 minute nap whenever possible.
7. Using basic, multi-joint exercises like Squats, deadlifts and rows. A 20-rep squat cycle will release growth hormone naturally and get you growing like no supplements ever will.
8. Keeping alcohol intake to a minimum or not drinking at all.
9. Avoiding refined sugars. Focusing on natural starchy and fibrous carbohydrates.
10. Consuming lean proteins at frequent intervals throughout the day.
11. Getting adequate amounts of the "good fats."
12. Avoiding Trans fats
13. Minimizing saturated fats
14. Getting lean and stay lean.
15. Avoiding stress
16. Relaxing.
17. Avoiding overtraining
Anti-anabolic events to avoid:
Over cooking food
Eating too fast
Missing Meals
Over Eating
Not drinking enough water
Not getting ENOUGH protein
Not getting ENOUGH calories
Drinking Alcohol
Too much caffeine
Taking Saw Palmetto when you are not at risk of BPH
Training TOO LITTLE! (1x per bodypart, per week does not take advantage of more frequent hormonal "work - recovery" cycles)
Doing low intensity cardio
Never lifting Heavy
OK! Lets assume that you have as much of that in place as is practical for you. The more of those steps you have in place, the more effective you will be at achieving your goal!
Lets also assume that you are seeing some desired progress..in the range of either; gaining 1/2 to 2 pounds of muscle a week or losing 1/2 to 2 pounds of fat a week!
If you have a combined goal (ie gain muscle while losing fat or lose fat while gaining muscle) then your expectation should be more conservative and dependent on what your PRIMARY goal is. i.e gain 1/2 to 2 pounds a week in muscle and lose 1/3 to 1/2 pound a week in fat or lose 1/2 to 2 pounds a week in fat and gain 1/3 to 1/2 pound a week muscle.
Ok, you are doing nearly everything right and seeing progress.
Now at this point I would ask why even bother to look for a supplement that can do what the body does very well naturally! Usually the answer is "Don't I need that, so-and-so said thats how you do it." or "Won't that help?" or "I am NOT SEEING PROGRESS!"
Let me address those!
"Don't I need that, so-and-so said thats how you do it."
You don't need anything to see results in any of these areas beyond supporting the body's natural processes as discussed. So-and-so is trying to sell you something or wrongly attributed results to something because they never tried to do it right without that something.
"Won't that help?"
In a very few instances, a supplement may make the difference when you are borderline responsive. When you have everything right and are seeing results, a supplement can get you that tiny extra edge. Which, in competitive sports like bodybuilding, can make all the difference. And yes, there are SOME supplements and strategies which can enhance performance to a noticeable degree! Such as Creatine Monohydrate which can enhance the intensity of your training by speeding post-set recovery and allowing a shortening of between-set rest times.
"I am NOT SEEING PROGRESS"
That goes back to the earlier discussion. Get the foundations in place! Everyone has what I will term bio-individuality. The specifics of the foundation varies from person to person! Your job is to use all the most current understandings in sport, exercise and nutrition science to learn what works best for you. If you don't want to educate yourself, you can also hire a qualified trainer to assist in finding the optimal balance.
In some instances there is a deficiency or other clinical reason for non-responsiveness when everything is in place for over 2 weeks. Someone in this position might be tempted to try multitudes of supplements and get minor or no response, sometimes even moving backward! There are specific Clinical tests which can identify and help resolve these types of issues. An example would be someone with a shortage of a certain enzyme which leads to incomplete fat breakdown and a resultant low level of hormone production (Testosterone, Growth hormone, etc.) This person would experience minimal gain in muscle and difficulty losing fat while not necessarily gaining fat!
OK. So, the foundations are in place, you understand the needs of your unique body, you are seeing results, and you have decided to look into supplements to get the extra little edge.
If that is where you were in the beginning, I apologize, most people are not. Most people start by looking for the magic pill...until they learn the truth about fitness.
If you are looking for a supplement to get that extra little edge, I am going to state one rule.
Make sure it is supported by multiple, independent, peer-reviewed, evidence-based...SCIENCE! It should also have used the same dosing methodology (Oral intake in human subjects.)
There are whole branches of science dedicated to looking for the best possible supplements for performance enhancement!.
There are also whole segments of the consumer market focused on taking advantage of inconclusive, absent, or useless science to sell you THE NEXT BIG THING!
The first supplement that you need to take:
Caveat Emptor!!!
This is Latin for "The Buyer Beware!"
It is your job to ensure that what you buy has science to back it up.
It is the job of the marketers to make you believe their product works "based on science." More often than not, they mislead. They are not required to substantiate what they say in their product marketing.
Lets look at some of those claims:
Burns Fat Fast - supplements do not burn fat. Muscle does.
Produces a Major Energy Boost With No Crash - What they are referring to is actually from a stimulant - this is not energy! Energy is what you get when you burn calories. A stimulant uses a chemical to cause the nervous system to become overexcited. Think: adrenalin. Later, this leads to adrenal exhaustion and more stimulant is required to get the "Major Energy Boost" again. Overexcited nerves is not the same as an excess of energy, and there is a resultant crash, though not immediate. The result of that crash is tiredness and overproduction of stress hormones which impede muscle growth and promote fat accumulation...
Controls Appetite - you recall a moment ago I mentioned that energy comes from burning calories...what happens if you restrict calories? If your goal is retain or gain muscle and you restrict calories, don't expect to retain or gain anything! If you restrict calories for any length of time, and you want to lose fat...your body will likely make up deficiencies in calories by destroying muscle. That is, by destroying your fat burning machinery.
Increases Mental Clarity, Focus, and Mood - this temporary high from stimulants and mood enhancers is nothing compared to how bad you will feel when you stop taking them or experience adrenal exhaustion! 
Aids in Excess Water Loss - muscle is 75% water. In order for fat to burn or muscle to hypertrophy, you must be properly hydrated. But look! You lost weight! As much as 10 pounds in a week! Yep, you lost water and probably crippled your fat burning, muscle building machinery.
Maintains Lean Body Mass - an unsupported statement, and after all I have said, I think you can see the absurdity of this claim.
Contains only quality ingredients in scientifically proven doses - scientifically proven to do what? One of the most often cited scientific research papers for a "scientifically proven dose" for synephrine was based on ****roaches that lost fat when injected with it! This has not been replicated in human subjects! The majority of the ingredients follow this model. A look at scientific research for each ingredient turns up "very little" to lead one to believe it has any part in a supplement for fat loss and muscle retention. However, they are Banking on that "very little."
Just to quote from one of the ads of one product you mentioned:
"One look at the label tells you all - SCORCH™ V3 works BIG-TIME! "
Unfortunately, this particular label has ingredients that are questionable at best.
I am NOT saying that supplements do nothing.
I am saying that we, as consumers should do our homework first!
You can not rely on word-of-mouth because you will not ever know the entire picture of what went into making someone else say, "it works."
I will stop my rant for now!
I simply want to make a case for being thoughtful about how you achieve your goals.
Why waist time and money!
Do what works.
Then, use supplements that enhance your efforts.
Cheers!
< Message edited by danmirage -- 1/16/2007 9:11:03 PM >
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to Avaric3)
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[Deleted] - 1/16/2007 2:31:03 AM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Stacking these supps? - 1/16/2007 9:16:28 AM
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danmirage
Posts: 6023
Joined: 11/20/2005
Status: offline
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Brown Sugar IS a processd and refined sugar.
A banana or a potato is NOT a refined sugar.
When you eat too fast, your digestive processes become disrupted, which may lead to causing progressive gastrointestinal problems. Eating right starts with taking your time to chew food thoroughly, in a calm eating environment.
Avoid "inhaling" your food on the run or cramming big chunks of food in to your mouth. Chew your food the way your mouth is designed too eat; slowly, until the food in your mouth is mixed with saliva, and the chewed food forms a semi-liquid food mass that is easy to swallow.
Don't swallow whole food particles...in fact you should almost not need to swallow. If you chew completely everything turns to near liquid and it almost dissappears.
Optimal growth comes from optimal nutrition. Optimal nutrition stems from optimal digestions and absorption of nutrients.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to Deleted User)
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