Deadlifting and Squatting

Are dedlifts and squats the only exercises necessary for legs?
because leg extensions really hurt my knees and leg presses i hate with a passion.
 
What do yous think?

IMO, no, they're not enough.

I believe you should incorporate some type of GHR to stimulate the hamstring and also speaking in terms of balance at the joint.

As far as leg extensions go, they're not necessary until the more advanced time frame when you need to activate more motor units.

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Sooo..whazzatmean?

i wouldn't agree with that mvp...squats and deadlifts are the bee's knees. just whatever you do get your form down and focus on driving your hips up, the rest of your body will follow.. don't hurt yourself. i would drop leg extensions.  jmo

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I'll second the dropping of the leg extensions.  Plenty of safer substitutes, imo:  You could use chains or bands with squats if you wanted more resistance at the top of the move.  I just think extensions put unnatural stress on the knees.

I like to include front squats and good mornings as well.  Lately I've been doing bulgarian split squats too.

I think that there are much better choices then leg extentions/curls (and any other machine for that matter).

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brihead301


I like to include front squats and good mornings as well.  Lately I've been doing bulgarian split squats too.

I think that there are much better choices then leg extentions/curls (and any other machine for that matter).

Bri,
   What's a good substitution for a leg curl?

JMBS


I'll second the dropping of the leg extensions.  Plenty of safer substitutes, imo:  You could use chains or bands with squats if you wanted more resistance at the top of the move.  I just think extensions put unnatural stress on the knees.

agree with this. 

a great lift with squats is hack squats as well.  hits the quads a lot more than squats where u get hams/hips/glutes with minimal quads.  also throw in some lunges.

just me though and my opinion, i dont even consider the deadlift to be a lift for your legs.  its an upperbody strength/mass lift.

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KK,
   Would you consider the squat or the dead the best whole-body workover?

JMBS


KK,
   Would you consider the squat or the dead the best whole-body workover?

yes.  the deadlift more so, but thats just me.  BUT squats and deads are my favorite lifts by far.  throw in the sohp as well and get more stabilizers going and your set.  if all you had was a rack with barbell and plates.  these 3 are excellent. 
-and powercleans if you have good form

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I've heard hamstring curls with a ball is a pretty good exercise. But don't do too many.

Bench: 70 Squat 135 Deadlift: 1??s 
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JMBS

brihead301


I like to include front squats and good mornings as well.  Lately I've been doing bulgarian split squats too.

I think that there are much better choices then leg extentions/curls (and any other machine for that matter).

Bri,
   What's a good substitution for a leg curl?

looks like i missed this.  good substitution, should say best, is sldl.

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---have new one now. goal is eventually to turn that one into a beast journal as well.

KublaKhan

JMBS


KK,
  Would you consider the squat or the dead the best whole-body workover?

yes.  the deadlift more so, but thats just me.  BUT squats and deads are my favorite lifts by far.  throw in the sohp as well and get more stabilizers going and your set.  if all you had was a rack with barbell and plates.  these 3 are excellent. 
-and powercleans if you have good form

Yeah, I'm definately gettin' a Woodrow thinkin' about an all compound routine.  Think that's my next move!  :)

Most routines should be primarily made up of compound lifts anyway.  One or two isolations at the end of a session is really all you need.

Back to the OP:

Squats
Deadlifts
Power Cleans
SLDL
Good mornings
Romanian dealifts
Lunges
Bulgarian Split squats
Step-ups
Hack Squats
Zercher squats/deadlifts
 
That's just to name a few.  Machines are unnecessary.

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

JMBS

KublaKhan

JMBS


KK,
  Would you consider the squat or the dead the best whole-body workover?

yes.  the deadlift more so, but thats just me.  BUT squats and deads are my favorite lifts by far.  throw in the sohp as well and get more stabilizers going and your set.  if all you had was a rack with barbell and plates.  these 3 are excellent. 
-and powercleans if you have good form

Yeah, I'm definately gettin' a Woodrow thinkin' about an all compound routine.  Think that's my next move!  :)

imo that would be your best bet. ive been doing nothing but compounds for a little over a year and i've gotten better gains in size and strength than i did wasting my times with curls for the girls :X

first day with no buds, 11/17, need a new job. 1 down 13 to go.

Curls definately do help to make your biceps a little bigger, but in the overall scope of things.....meaning your entire body....they are not very useful.

It's the squats, deads, OHP's, etc....the ones that work MULTIPLE muscle groups that cause the REAL growth to happen.

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

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Bri,
   Strong bis don't help w/all the "pulls"?:  pullups, rows?

I sometimes do leg curls with bands.  Also I love good mornings and glute ham raises.  I stiff leg deadlift a bit too but don't like it as much as a good morning.

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JMBS

brihead301


I like to include front squats and good mornings as well.  Lately I've been doing bulgarian split squats too.

I think that there are much better choices then leg extentions/curls (and any other machine for that matter).

Bri,
   What's a good substitution for a leg curl?

Stiff leg deadlifts.

Goals by end of 2009:
Bench 205
Squat 255 ATG
Squat Clean 185

"There is no elevator to success, you must take the stairs."

Yup, SLDL's as Connelly said.  Good mornings and RDL's are excellent too.

I wouldn't call them a substitution though, rather they are just much better exercises altogether....

About the bi's helping with deadlifts and rows.....eh not so much.  The back and legs play the greatest role in those lifts, but they also work your biceps too....

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

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Brihead and everyone that said stiff-leg deadlifts are 100% correct.

Hamstrings respond as the primary concentric movers to two movements: extension at the hip which is the case of a SLDL and knee flexsion.

I say glute ham raises still because the knee is being extended in the squat, so flexsion would balance the joint.

Stiff-leg deadlifts are still a good idea none the less because there have been plenty of cases of over-active hip flexors and under-stimulated hip extensors.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP,
   What's the word on the knee-flexion only popliteus muscle?  Deads aren't going to work that but the GHRs or curls would.  How important is it to isolate and develop that muscle?  Thx!

Deadlifts and back squats are plenty of work for your legs...

trust me.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

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Nm0ney34


Deadlifts and back squats are plenty of work for your legs...

trust me.

I think for most yes this could be the case, a deadlift will do pretty much everything a SLDL would do as well as a good morning.

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N$,
   You'd be the one to know, Quad God!  :)

JMBS


MVP,
   What's the word on the knee-flexion only popliteus muscle?  Deads aren't going to work that but the GHRs or curls would.  How important is it to isolate and develop that muscle?  Thx!

It's important that you work the antagonist of all your exercises. I've heard Danmirage many times in his posts mention on how he too shares the same opinion that deadlifts and back squats are nowhere near enough especially from a physiology stand-point.

Politeus, gracillis and the sartorius (which is part of the quads, also the longest muscle in the human body) are the secondary knee flexors. The primary knee flexors are the hamstrings. It's their roll in relation to the human body, their primary roll is to flex the knee and the movements in which they are overloaded are reflective of this.

The best way to work a muscle to the extent of overload is by performing it's primary function.

Squats and deadlifts require the hamstrings to be eccentric stabilizers.. whilst the stimulus to the hamstrings is there, they are recruited, it cannot be compared to the stimulus on the other side of the joint where they would respond as primary concentric movers. I'm speaking from a physiology stand-point as well as a joint balance standpoint.

If you would do nothing but barbell curls and avoid tricep extensions, what is that? Potential elbow imbalance. The elbow flexors being stronger than the elbow extensors leading to potential elbow injury. Same philosophy applies with the knee which is also a synovial joint.

As far as isolating them goes, you're not. While it is an isolation exercise, it also targets the gluteus maximus, the adductor magnus, popliteus and the gastrocnemius, and other muscle groups that act as synergists and the erector spinae that would act as a stabilizer.

Edit: I'm talking about a glute-hamstring raise (GHR) not a hamstring curl.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

JMBS


Bri,
   Strong bis don't help w/all the "pulls"?:  pullups, rows?

Pullups and rows? Yes. They are synergists, responsible for the elbow flexsion part of the exercise.

Not all the pulls though, during a deadlift the arm should be fully extended at all times, which would cancel the biceps as acting as anything more than a stabilizer. The triceps (opposing muscle) is responsible for extension at the elbow.

As far as legs go, the posterior chain is stimulated during the barbell row isometrically to stabilize the hips to prevent putting them at a mechanical advance thus turning the exercise into a bastardly awkward version of a power clean. So it's a mere isometric contraction. They are stimulated though (the posterior chain).  

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MVP,
  I guess to cut to the chase, do bigger bis help you with arm pulls?  My rows and pulldowns are okay but my (bodyweight) pullups positively blow a full gale.  And I can BB curl over 100 lb fairly easily.  Those guns don't seem to be helping with the lat development.  What's the answer, Jeeves?

It sounds like your biceps are your strongest point then. It's probably just a sign of underdeveloped lats.

You could just do bridge pull-ups, body-weight pull-ups everyday, focus on the isometric part of the contraction.

My pull-ups were down to 3 reps until I started doing them various times throughout the day. Meaning whenever I would walk by my pull-up bar, I'd do a set until failure and at the top of the isometric contraction I would hold and do a negative. It ended up I was doing 20-30 pull-ups per day and then my total in 1 set increased pretty significantly.

Just continue practicing pull-ups and chin-ups. Chin-ups would recruit more of the biceps and and less of the brachilalis and the pull-up would recruit more of the brachilalis and less of the biceps. Both movements the lats act as agonists though and both will stimulate the lats to the point of overload.

I prefer 1 set of chins, 1 set of pull-ups and then 1 set of hammer pull-ups.

How many pull-ups can you do at the moment? Do you squeeze your lats at the top of the movement?

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

To be honest I'm not sure I can do 1 body weight pullup with good form.  But on the assist machine, when you say squeeze at the top, what should the top be?  Chin at bar level or as high as possible?

Also I have a chinup bar rigged in my basement.  I'll go check and see how wide it is though.  Hold on...
Okay, it exactly the width between my elbows with arms out.  So when upper arms are horizontal, forearms are exactly vertical (90 degree elbow bend).  That's good with, right?  I'm so tall that I have to bend my knees like I'm doing dips.  That's okay, right?  Also, my low back (those pesky hip flexors?) usually talk back to me the next several days when I use that chinup bar in the basement.  But maybe that eventually goes away with continual use?  I'll start doing them several times a day downstairs.