DC training,Westside for Skinny Bastards, 20 rep squat program

Okay so i officially failed miserably on week 5 of my retry on madcow so im looking for a new routine to begin next week. I've come across DC training, Westside for skinny bastards and the 20 rep squat program that has recently been mentioned by Nm0ney34. What are the benefits/downsides of each in comparison to one another and ultimately which one do you think is best for strength while on a cut.
 
Also, i mentioned this before but i got mixed answers, would creatine be any good for strength gains on a cut or should it be reserved for a bulk only?

PumaKrieg


Okay so i officially failed miserably on week 5 of my retry on madcow so im looking for a new routine to begin next week. I've come across DC training, Westside for skinny bastards and the 20 rep squat program that has recently been mentioned by Nm0ney34. What are the benefits/downsides of each in comparison to one another and ultimately which one do you think is best for strength while on a cut.
 
Also, i mentioned this before but i got mixed answers, would creatine be any good for strength gains on a cut or should it be reserved for a bulk only?

definatly use creatine.

I cant comment on westside for skinny bastards Ive never done it and dont know much about it.

20 rep squat routine is great and I gained alot from it but I dont think the body can handle it on a cut.  Im doing my version of DC right now during a cut and I continue to gain strength.  I think its one of the best programs ever written up.

working on explosive phase
vertical: 35
weight: 206

Big 3: 300/440/515

Strength and growth come only through continuous effort and struggle.

the 20 rep squat program is designed to do one thing, put mass on you.

I dont even think you could do 2-3 weeks of that program on a cut...your starting with your 10rm and making that your 20, and adding 5 lb's to your number every week.

your adding like 85 lb's or something a long those lines by the end of the program to your 10RM and doing it 20 times...you need to be in a surplus, its the reason why they recommend drinking a gallon of whole milk a day.

failed on week 5 on mad cows? you know that program is designed for people who are trying to gain right? When I did the texas method on a cut, I adjusted my starting weight down below what I normally would have to compensate for the cut and allow myself to keep progressing week to week.

I think that may be your problem, cutting while doing a strength program is fine, you just have to adjust your numbers because your not going to see any gains, and in fact lose some strength. Not from muscle lose, but from low glycogen levels from cutting.

I would stick to your current program until your done, but drop the numbers down and progress up from that until your finished.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Well ill summarize what happened.

My first madcow i managed to go 9 weeks before i got sick; i attempted week 10 sick and did horrible so i took the week after off. Right after that week off is when i started cutting weight, and that week there i just tried to find my maxes which perhaps because of being sick and my diet were around what was previously week 5 of the last madcow i just did. I took those maxes, took off 5 pounds of them, continued to cut weight and started doing a retry of madcow until now at which point the only max i got today was the squats and that was because i took little breaks at the top which i normally dont do.

So you think i should drop the numbers down even more and continue doing it a little longer? 

Im sick of hearing that youre going to lose strength on a cut.  If youre losing strength on a cut, youre doing it wrong, or youre at your genetic peak.

working on explosive phase
vertical: 35
weight: 206

Big 3: 300/440/515

Strength and growth come only through continuous effort and struggle.

RollingStone


Im sick of hearing that youre going to lose strength on a cut.  If youre losing strength on a cut, youre doing it wrong, or youre at your genetic peak.

Exactly. Thank you.

You WON'T lose strength on a cut if you do it right, muscle strength doesn't mean muscle size.

As far as westside for skinny bastards go - I'm on the routine right now and so far I'm liking it. It combines strength, power, and endurance. IMO, that's perfect set up for cutting. I would recommend a calorie surplus for the 20 rep squat program, that's just too demanding.

DC training can be done in a calorie deficit pretty easily, although it's geared more for the calorie surplus because it wasn't design to add to strength -  it was designed to put mass on you.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

RollingStone


Im sick of hearing that youre going to lose strength on a cut.  If youre losing strength on a cut, youre doing it wrong, or youre at your genetic peak.

i couldn't agree more RS

i probably would have stopped CKD if i lost strength haha but i have been doing it for a while now and my numbers still manage to go up

Current: 19, 5'11", 190@7%

bench:305 squat:370(atg) deadlift:475
Goals: 4plate squat, 5plate dead

"obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated"

just a couple of questions MVP about westside; not saying im going to do it yet but i am curious

On Friday (repetition upper body) A: Repetition lift: how many reps are you supposed to be going for exactly?

Also did you add any extra stuff in for legs like he mentioned later on

Really? so while lifting on an extreme deficit your going to be as strong as if your lifting on a surplus?

re-read what I said you will lose strength, not much if your doing it right but you will. Mostly due to low glycogen levels, your just not taking in the carbs and calories to perform at an optimal level.

RollingStone


Im sick of hearing that youre going to lose strength on a cut.  If youre losing strength on a cut, youre doing it wrong, or youre at your genetic peak.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

PumaKrieg


just a couple of questions MVP about westside; not saying im going to do it yet but i am curious

On Friday (repetition upper body) A: Repetition lift: how many reps are you supposed to be going for exactly?

Also did you add any extra stuff in for legs like he mentioned later on

Well, sometimes they do something called a 225, 185, or 135 rep test. Meaning try to get 15-20 reps with one of the two, if you're extremely strong try it with 225, if you're intermediate try it with 185, if you're just into training try it with 135.

Or you could just do something like 3 X 15-20 with a certain amount of weight. It's to practice explosive training which in turn leads to power.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

okay and you would do that every week on that friday?

You could alternate like I'm going to do.

I'm going to do 3 X 15-20 with 135 (bench wise) one week "A", then on week "B" I'm going to test my 185lb rep test. My goal before it's over is 185lbs for 10-15 reps. Right now I can get about 10 or so.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Nm0ney34


Really? so while lifting on an extreme deficit your going to be as strong as if your lifting on a surplus?

re-read what I said you will lose strength, not much if your doing it right but you will. Mostly due to low glycogen levels, your just not taking in the carbs and calories to perform at an optimal level.

RollingStone


Im sick of hearing that youre going to lose strength on a cut.  If youre losing strength on a cut, youre doing it wrong, or youre at your genetic peak.

lol well idk how you eat when you diet but every single exercise for me is stronger than its ever been before, despite being 25 lbs less than I was.

and going on an extreme deficit is just dumb in my opinion.

working on explosive phase
vertical: 35
weight: 206

Big 3: 300/440/515

Strength and growth come only through continuous effort and struggle.

Then I think what we are talking about is 2 totally different things.

When you go on a cut, the goal is to get the fat off asap. So if your in a deficit and doing cardio for added effect, you are going to lose some strength theres no way around it. but as I said it wont be much if anything at all and it will return when your diet goes back to more carbs/calories.

You might be referring to something along clean bulking or perhaps you did play all your cards right where you gain muscle/strength and lose fat at the same time, its possible but hard.

RollingStone

Nm0ney34


Really? so while lifting on an extreme deficit your going to be as strong as if your lifting on a surplus?

re-read what I said you will lose strength, not much if your doing it right but you will. Mostly due to low glycogen levels, your just not taking in the carbs and calories to perform at an optimal level.

RollingStone


Im sick of hearing that youre going to lose strength on a cut.  If youre losing strength on a cut, youre doing it wrong, or youre at your genetic peak.

lol well idk how you eat when you diet but every single exercise for me is stronger than its ever been before, despite being 25 lbs less than I was.

and going on an extreme deficit is just dumb in my opinion.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Both of you are right. If you would cut fast you'd lose a bit of strength, but rollingstone is talking about a proper cut meaning feeding your body enough calories to gain strength (with no size) and still lose weight.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I would suggest Big Beyond Belief.

It's like DC, only harder. It's known as probably one of the absolute hardest programs ever. I have the book now and I have read and spoken to some people with their results.

It's basically insane crazy intensity and volume for three weeks, working each body part 9 times or so (depending on your program) in 3 weeks. This is called ramping. Then you cruise in a deloading stage for 3 weeks but lift heavy. This is where I lag effect comes in and you gain big amounts of muscle.

Ramps are designed to take make you overreach by the beginning of week 3 ramp, and by the end of week 3 ramp, you are then slightly over training. But, the crusing weeks get you big really quick. A guy on t-nation gain 65lb in a year and a half on this naturally. Also he says his lifts were a touch and go 460lb raw bench press, 550 or something like that parallel squat, a huge deadlift, and l275 on the seated military press.

I am going to start the 27th of July. The book also gives you two diet to choose from. Anabolic Diet and low fat, high carb, high protein. Any other diet won't work, and that has been proven by people who decided to do their own thing and didn't follow the nutrition guidelines. A lot of reviews on Amazon claimed 20+ pounds on their weight while actually losing a couple of BF% by using the anabolic diet.

there is a thread on this now, but the dude who said he was going to do it hasnt been around in quite some time.

Perrynaytor


I would suggest Big Beyond Belief.

It's like DC, only harder. It's known as probably one of the absolute hardest programs ever. I have the book now and I have read and spoken to some people with their results.

It's basically insane crazy intensity and volume for three weeks, working each body part 9 times or so (depending on your program) in 3 weeks. This is called ramping. Then you cruise in a deloading stage for 3 weeks but lift heavy. This is where I lag effect comes in and you gain big amounts of muscle.

Ramps are designed to take make you overreach by the beginning of week 3 ramp, and by the end of week 3 ramp, you are then slightly over training. But, the crusing weeks get you big really quick. A guy on t-nation gain 65lb in a year and a half on this naturally. Also he says his lifts were a touch and go 460lb raw bench press, 550 or something like that parallel squat, a huge deadlift, and l275 on the seated military press.

I am going to start the 27th of July. The book also gives you two diet to choose from. Anabolic Diet and low fat, high carb, high protein. Any other diet won't work, and that has been proven by people who decided to do their own thing and didn't follow the nutrition guidelines. A lot of reviews on Amazon claimed 20+ pounds on their weight while actually losing a couple of BF% by using the anabolic diet.

there is a thread on this now, but the dude who said he was going to do it hasnt been around in quite some time.

Sounds interesting, Id like to try that when I start bulking again towards the winter.  Periodization is always sure to work when nothing else does.  I wanna do DC too on a caloric surplus too though.  Looks like Im gonna be busy.

working on explosive phase
vertical: 35
weight: 206

Big 3: 300/440/515

Strength and growth come only through continuous effort and struggle.