Changing Routine Weekly?

I have a quick question for you guys.  I am currently doing a 5 day split between Mon-Fri.
 
Mon - Chest
Incline DB bench
Flat barbell bench
Dips
Cable crossovers
Pushups
 
Tues - Arms
Incline DB curl
Cable machine curls with rope
Deads(I know its not arms but I wanted a compound exercise everyday)
Overhead DB tricep extensions
Cable machine pulldowns
 
Wednesday - Legs
Squats
DB Stepups
Single leg deads
Calf raises
 
Thursday - Back
Bent over rows
Lat pulldown
Pullups
 
Friday - Shoulders
Press
DB front raises
Shrugs
Upright Row
 
This is my bulking routine.  It allows me to keep my gym time under an hour to maximize my test, which I read was the way to go.  I recently came across another post for someone else whos routine was:
 
Monday- sets of 5
Bench,
OH Press,
Bent Rows,
Barbell Curls (3sets)

Wed- sets of 4
Deads,
Cleans,
Push Press,
One Arm Rows,
SkullCrushers (3 sets)

Friday- sets of 3
Squat,
Incline Bench,
Dumbell Shoulder Press superset Upright Rows,
Pullups,
Dips
 
It would make my life much easier to do this and only go to the gym three times a week but is it going to make a difference?  Also, I had the idea of rotating weeks according to my schedule at work.  Sometimes its easier to get a quick, 45 minutes workout in, 5 days a week in the morning but other times, it would be much easier to workout three times a week for 1.25-1.5 hours.  Is it a good idea to rotate these routines(essentially weekly) or should I just pick one or the other and stick to it?
 

There's no way I would recommend a natural lifter to lift weights 5 straight days per week. I always say go for 3. Remove upright rows, eliminate some of those arm movements and add in some type of hamstring exercise for your leg day.

Never change a routine weekly, give your program time to work. Everything works, but nothing does if you don't stick with it.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

So you would say to do the 3 day routine and stick to it?

Yes.

This is how I would do it:

Monday- sets of 5
Squats
Bench
Bent Rows,
Chin-Ups

Wed- sets of 4
Deads
GHR's
OHP
One Arm Rows
SkullCrushers (3 sets)

Friday- sets of 3
Squat,
Incline Bench,
BO lateral raise
Pullups
Dips

That's how I would do it. Upright rows should be avoided. OHP and bench on the same day is going to lead to one plateauing too quickly.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

So should I be doing 5x5on Monday, 4X6 on Wednesday, and 3x8 on Friday?

And should I be starting that the most weight I can do that many reps of, then do drop sets? 

For example:
When doing bench, I can do 5 reps of 185.  I could probably do that for 3 sets.  After that, should I drop the weight down?  Or should I start lower for the first two sets?

i like your first workout.  5 days is fine but i would take off wednesday and push everything back a day.


On the 3-day routine I would start lower weight on the first two sets and work up.  I just dont really see the point of dropsets...im sure they work for some  people but not me

I think I'm going to go with the 3 day split for a while and see how it goes. I tend to get sick alot more when I lift and after doing some reading, I think it may be from putting the extra stress on my body 5 days a week.  I'm going to try out the 3 day for a while and see how it goes.

Im on a 3000 calorie diet, 33/33/33%, between 200-250g of protein in a day.

200-250g of protein per day is way too much.

Your carbohydrate and fat intake should be higher than your protein intake.

Something like this: 20/50/30 seems much more logical. Extra protein can be hard on the kidney's, it can interrupt usage of carbohydrates and it can be stored as fat.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP


200-250g of protein per day is way too much.

Your carbohydrate and fat intake should be higher than your protein intake.

Something like this: 20/50/30 seems much more logical. Extra protein can be hard on the kidney's, it can interrupt usage of carbohydrates and it can be stored as fat.

i agree that 200-250 g of protein is too much

but a 20/50/30 ratio is fuxked up!! that's way too many carbs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Current: 19, 5'11", 190@7%

bench:305 squat:370(atg) deadlift:475
Goals: 4plate squat, 5plate dead

"obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated"

The general ACE guideline is 55-65% carbohydrates (I'm sure you know that though since you're taking the course too). But it would really depend on the cycle and the persons metabolism. Some ectomorphs may even need more carbs than that during a bulking cycle.

Carbohydrates are the most important nutrient for exercising muscles. So it should be the highest of the three macro nutrients. Of course, relying on books too much is not always a good thing.

What is your personal recommendation for ratios then?

On the contrary I listed the near minimum carbohydrate % as listed here by Dan who recommends 45-75% - http://www.discussbodyb...aining-Mass-m111173.aspx

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP


The general ACE guideline is 55-65% carbohydrates (I'm sure you know that though since you're taking the course too). But it would really depend on the cycle and the persons metabolism. Some ectomorphs may even need more carbs than that during a bulking cycle.

Carbohydrates are the most important nutrient for exercising muscles. So it should be the highest of the three macro nutrients. Of course, relying on books too much is not always a good thing.

What is your personal recommendation for ratios then?

On the contrary I listed the near minimum carbohydrate % as listed here by Dan who recommends 45-75% - http://www.discussbodyb...aining-Mass-m111173.aspx

everything u said MVP is 100% true but i have always had a problem with excessive carb intake even during a bulking cycle. insulin is undoubtedly one of the most important factors when it comes to building muscle.

but, with a diet consisting of 50% carbohydrates more likely then not will call for meals with a substantial amount of carbs later on in the day/evening. IMO carbs should be limited to morning, pre, and post workout. i guess i am biased because im a keto lover but i never got the point of spiking your insulin at say 6 and 9pm when you finished training at 2 in the afternoon. i just feel that too much of those carbs will be stored as fat.

thats just always the way that i have done it. but i have always liked to stay very lean when i bulk. and i hate that ACE recommends an intake of 55-65% carbohydrates. that just sounds like an uneducated ratio for those with a sedentary lifestyle. most people are not very insulin sensitive and having a diet comprised of 60% carbs again will call for meals with a substantial amount of carbs in the evening. most all of which will be stored as fat. people do not need carbs later on in the day but they want them, so they eat them, giving them an advised ratio of 60% carbs just justifies there carb feasting.

if i get off keto any time soon (i dont plan on it though) i would go back to a 40/35/25 split. but then again thats just what works best for me

Current: 19, 5'11", 190@7%

bench:305 squat:370(atg) deadlift:475
Goals: 4plate squat, 5plate dead

"obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated"

I don't like the idea of protein being the higher macro-nutrient due to the possibility of it being used as energy and then the possibility of making the ratio counterproductive.

If protein is used as energy, then the carbs and fats will be stored as fat and protein won't be used to build muscle tissue, so you would gain fat and lose muscle, right? And without some sort of meat or dairy used to repair muscle that contain the 8 essential amino acids that make up complete protein which cannot be manufactured through other nutrients, it's catabolism central? Your body generally uses the highest macro as it's source of energy, right? Like the keto, the fat intake as the highest so that's being used as energy, I could be mistaken (correct me if I am).

But the anaerobic glycosis uses purely glucose and creatine phosphate to use as ATP instead of fatty acids and although during the resting phase of exercise, you're using your aerobic metabolism (thus, fatty acids are used) it still needs glucose to contract maximal force. Glucose can be used through protein and carbs, correct? So wouldn't that cost you carbohydrates and doesn't excessive protein (if not converted to fat) convert to glucose (which is the same as carbohydrates do)?

Don't get me wrong, I think the keto is a great diet and fantastic for fat loss and the results speak highly. But I do believe that when it comes to bulking carbohydrates are to an extent necessary to build muscle.

I do think generally higher carbohydrate diets would be better for a bulk though, just personally.

Then again, there are a lot of people that says they don't like the idea of high carbohydrate diets (like yourself) and feel that the results they got from a higher fat diet got them just as good and in some cases better results in comparison to one that would require 50% or more carbohydrates.

Guess everyone is different though.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP


I don't like the idea of protein being the higher macro-nutrient due to the possibility of it being used as energy and then the possibility of making the ratio counterproductive.

If protein is used as energy, then the carbs and fats will be stored as fat and protein won't be used to build muscle tissue, so you would gain fat and lose muscle, right? And without some sort of meat or dairy used to repair muscle that contain the 8 essential amino acids that make up complete protein which cannot be manufactured through other nutrients, it's catabolism central? Your body generally uses the highest macro as it's source of energy, right? Like the keto, the fat intake as the highest so that's being used as energy, I could be mistaken (correct me if I am).

But the anaerobic glycosis uses purely glucose and creatine phosphate to use as ATP instead of fatty acids and although during the resting phase of exercise, you're using your aerobic metabolism (thus, fatty acids are used) it still needs glucose to contract maximal force. Glucose can be used through protein and carbs, correct? So wouldn't that cost you carbohydrates and doesn't excessive protein (if not converted to fat) convert to glucose (which is the same as carbohydrates do)?

Don't get me wrong, I think the keto is a great diet and fantastic for fat loss and the results speak highly. But I do believe that when it comes to bulking carbohydrates are to an extent necessary to build muscle.

I do think generally higher carbohydrate diets would be better for a bulk though, just personally.

Then again, there are a lot of people that says they don't like the idea of high carbohydrate diets (like yourself) and feel that the results they got from a higher fat diet got them just as good and in some cases better results in comparison to one that would require 50% or more carbohydrates.

Guess everyone is different though.

u never cease to amaze me with the wealth of knowledge you have. and u make some great points.

i agree, of course your body can not store excess protein. those excess amino acids that are not used to make enzymes or other proteins will be striped of nitrogen. we know these non nitrogen parts of amino acids are used for energy or stored as fat (as you previously mentioned). and the remaining nitrogen is eventually excreted by your kidneys and liver.

supposedly these waste products have been shown to cause kidney injury, and excess nitrogen also supposedly elicits some further problems. but im not entirely convinced of this. they say that excess protein can potentially cause kidney stones, but only 7-21 people out of 10000 will develop a kidney stone. thats a tiny percentage.

i do agree that utilizing carbs as the highest macronutrient in a bulking diet can be beneficial but its just not for me

Current: 19, 5'11", 190@7%

bench:305 squat:370(atg) deadlift:475
Goals: 4plate squat, 5plate dead

"obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated"

Regarding the kidney stone issue, I agree with you, I am not totally convinced either.

u never cease to amaze me with the wealth of knowledge you have. and u make some great points.

Comments accepted and appreciated. Likewise, good points brought up on your part too .

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

On a much less technical note, what happened to the theory of 1 - 1.5g of protein per a pound of body weight? I weigh 170 now.  170x1.5 = 255.  Is that an old way of thinking that is no longer used?

An active athlete and weightlifter needs 1.5-2g of protein for every kg of body-weight.

A competitive bodybuilder on steroids needs about 1-2g of protein for every lb of body-weight.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Well, I'm 170 lbs, about 20% BF, I pretty much qualify as a body builder on steroids. 

But seriously, is it going to hurt my gains?  From a pure health standpoint I can understand the need to drink more water and to make sure I get enough calcium but from a muscle building standpoint, what is the negative?  I understand it can turn to fat if its not used but so are carbs, arent they?  So is anything we put into our body if its not used isn't it?

JLad10687


Well, I'm 170 lbs, about 20% BF, I pretty much qualify as a body builder on steroids. 

But seriously, is it going to hurt my gains?  From a pure health standpoint I can understand the need to drink more water and to make sure I get enough calcium but from a muscle building standpoint, what is the negative?  I understand it can turn to fat if its not used but so are carbs, arent they?  So is anything we put into our body if its not used isn't it?

i hope that's sarcasm

Current: 19, 5'11", 190@7%

bench:305 squat:370(atg) deadlift:475
Goals: 4plate squat, 5plate dead

"obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated"

JLad10687


Well, I'm 170 lbs, about 20% BF, I pretty much qualify as a body builder on steroids. 

But seriously, is it going to hurt my gains?  From a pure health standpoint I can understand the need to drink more water and to make sure I get enough calcium but from a muscle building standpoint, what is the negative?  I understand it can turn to fat if its not used but so are carbs, arent they?  So is anything we put into our body if its not used isn't it?

 Carbohydrates and glucose usually falls short of the requirements for most individual. As Daniel has said, he and others don't respond as good to carbs and prefer a keto / paleo diet approach and that is perfectly fine. Whatever gets the job done.

Protein can affect the kidneys but I am unconvinced of the over-hyped severity. Excessive protein basically can interrupt carbohydrate usage and can be used as an energy source thus the breakdown of amino acids in the muscle given a counterproductive diet. But as long as you're taking in some energy source whether it's fat or carbs the diet will be productive with adequate protein.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

JLad10687


Well, I'm 170 lbs, about 20% BF, I pretty much qualify as a body builder on steroids. 

Um.....no.

Goals by end of 2009:
Bench 205
Squat 255 ATG
Squat Clean 185

"There is no elevator to success, you must take the stairs."

connelly

JLad10687


Well, I'm 170 lbs, about 20% BF, I pretty much qualify as a body builder on steroids. 

Um.....no.

I started the next sentence with "But seriously," obviously I dont really think I am a body builder.  Maybe you should have read it through before commenting.

MVP


Carbohydrates and glucose usually falls short of the requirements for most individual. As Daniel has said, he and others don't respond as good to carbs and prefer a keto / paleo diet approach and that is perfectly fine. Whatever gets the job done.

Protein can affect the kidneys but I am unconvinced of the over-hyped severity. Excessive protein basically can interrupt carbohydrate usage and can be used as an energy source thus the breakdown of amino acids in the muscle given a counterproductive diet. But as long as you're taking in some energy source whether it's fat or carbs the diet will be productive with adequate protein.

I gotcha, thanks for the help.  I'll just keep the carbs 5% higher then the protein then to make sure it is the primary source for energy.