Bulk or Cut and BF estimate?

Please help me I'm stuck at the moment and I don't know whether to cut or bulk or what I should do.

I'm 6'1", 200lbs, 17 years old and from various calculators on the internet it averaged my BF at around 19.5%

So should I cut until I get rid of the excess fat?
Should I start bulking?







 

although you do have some body fat.. I would think it would be best for you to have a clean diet, probably slightly over maintenance, 200 cals or so and try to gain some good lean mass.. incorporate 30 minutes of light cardio into your routine.. to help burn some of the excess body fat..
 
The more lean muscle mass you have, the higher your metabolism will be and help rid some of the unwanted fat.. at your stage of development, I don'think cutting down any more would really be of benefit..
 
you should post your routine and diet...

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

I'm currently on a quite extensive workout program.

Monday: Shoulders
Tuesday: Biceps/Abs
Wednesday: Legs
Thursday: Back
Friday: Chest/Abs

Each day I'm at the gym for around 45 minutes.

Since I have a lot of excess fat I've cut down my calorie intake by quite a lot. My maintenance level is around 3000 so I've reduced it to about 2500.

But after reading a lot lately I've become quite confused with what would truly benefit me. And since my BF is close to 20%; people on other forums have told me I shouldn't really bulk and that bulking should cease at around 15-16% before you cut again.
 
Also in regards to you saying "incorporate some cardio" whilst being "slighlty over maintenance" - the cardio would ultimately kill the point of going over maintenance since I would be burning up those extra calories.
 
The way I've learnt it is that you MUST make a calorie deficit in order to loose weight.

at this stage youll probably be able to lose fat and gain a bit of muscle at the same time.  I agree with smoundzou.

bf calculators on the internet are horribly inaccurate.  I probably cant make that much of a better guess either though.

working on explosive phase
vertical: 35
weight: 206

Big 3: 300/440/515

Strength and growth come only through continuous effort and struggle.

yeah the online calorie calculators suck. I tried about 10 and got different results for all of them. But I am eating less atm.

Anyway, wouldn't I benefit from cutting down until I loose all that fat and get to around 13% BF? The maybe I can start bulking with around 200-500+ over maintenance?
 
I'll also note that I've been doing weights for around 4 months now but for the majority of the time my diet was crap and I was stilll learning about body building. It's only now that I really need to focus on my goals and put 100% into diet and everything. And i want to do it in the most benefitial way.

you wont benefit from cutting first, this is a common mistake, and it doesnt serve any real purpose, you want to cut down to lower your bodyfat % obviously and to look better, the only problem with that is if you lose the excess fat you will look like a twig, going from one end of the spectrum to another.  I say do what smouz said get your diet in line, that doesnt mean eating less.

As for the routine you posted i would say you might be better off doing a full body routine 3 times a week as the one you posted really doesnt make too much sense and you are at the gym 5 days straight.  Having a whole day for biceps and abs is just unneeded

So how am I supposed to loose the fat if I'm eating 200 calories over maintenance?

you can train your body to use fat stores through your diet.  Also if your diet is very clean and you are getting just enouhg nutrients to promote muscle growth your bodyfat % will go down on its own as muscle is a fat burner

i would cut without a doubt. i'm sure some here will disagree but 200lb. at 20% body fat is not a good place to be, especially not a good place to start a bulk. u might be able to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time depending on ur level of experience but personally i would never think about bulking at 19-20%bf, let alone starting one at that level.
u have about 160lb. of LBM which isnt a ton but if u cut down to about 13% like u said you'd look pretty good and from that point u could bulk

for the record i am not necessarily telling him to bulk, but definitely not to cut.  I would venture a guess and say he would really be losing a lot of his "noob" gains because he would be cutting instead of trying to build that all important foundation

ORIGINAL: Soccerking3000

for the record i am not necessarily telling him to bulk, but definitely not to cut.  I would venture a guess and say he would really be losing a lot of his "noob" gains because he would be cutting instead of trying to build that all important foundation

noob gains go in both directions. when he first starts if he has say a 300 calorie deficit he'll lose fat faster than average and can still gain muscle and definitely strength.

i think the most important thing is to work towards what u want to look like, if he wants to be 20% bf thats fine but i'd guess that he doesnt and theres not much point in bulking, possibly gaining more fat, if he wants to get leaner.

i think hed lose alot of fat anyway if he listened to smoundz advice...and hed still be putting a bit of muscle on underneath it.  When he gets down to like 15 and has some muscle, then might be a better time to do an all out cut.

working on explosive phase
vertical: 35
weight: 206

Big 3: 300/440/515

Strength and growth come only through continuous effort and struggle.

ORIGINAL: RollingStone

i think hed lose alot of fat anyway if he listened to smoundz advice...and hed still be putting a bit of muscle on underneath it.  When he gets down to like 15 and has some muscle, then might be a better time to do an all out cut.

would would u think he'd lose a lot of fat with 200 calories over maintenance?
just because u add in some cardio doesnt mean anything. when i bulk i have a near perfect diet and do HIIT 3x a week and i still put on fat even with only a small surplus.
think about if u were in this position, u wouldnt think twice about the decision to cut. sure you've been training longer so u wouldnt get all noob gains but just because he's lifting doesnt mean he'll lose fat

ORIGINAL: David1991

ORIGINAL: RollingStone

i think hed lose alot of fat anyway if he listened to smoundz advice...and hed still be putting a bit of muscle on underneath it. When he gets down to like 15 and has some muscle, then might be a better time to do an all out cut.

would would u think he'd lose a lot of fat with 200 calories over maintenance?

Because when you gain 30lbs of muscle you will lose fat, regardless of your diet.

Hell, I've been training for close to 9 years and never tried to cut, and I started not far from 20% BF.

ORIGINAL: coldfire

Because when you gain 30lbs of muscle you will lose fat, regardless of your diet.

thats completely wrong.
so u think if u eat a ton of crap all day and gain 20lb. of fat with 30lb. of muscle ur just gonna start losing fat??

if he diets clean i really cant see him putting on fat...at least not at this stage.

your right if i were in the situation id probably cut, but thats a problem of mine and id probably have progressed further by now if i did not care so much about being lean.

and tell you the truth he doesnt look like hes as high in bf as he thinks.  The first picture hes not sucking in at all, the other ones he looks lower than 19-20.  Maybe the lack of muscle is making it look lower than it is...idk

working on explosive phase
vertical: 35
weight: 206

Big 3: 300/440/515

Strength and growth come only through continuous effort and struggle.

If he puts on some muscles before cutting he'd have a lot easier time melting the fat off.

Failure isn't falling down... it's staying down.

ORIGINAL: dapunisher

If he puts on some muscles before cutting he'd have a lot easier time melting the fat off.

^fact.

working on explosive phase
vertical: 35
weight: 206

Big 3: 300/440/515

Strength and growth come only through continuous effort and struggle.

ORIGINAL: David1991

ORIGINAL: coldfire

Because when you gain 30lbs of muscle you will lose fat, regardless of your diet.

thats completely wrong.
so u think if u eat a ton of crap all day and gain 20lb. of fat with 30lb. of muscle ur just gonna start losing fat??

You won't gain 20lb of fat with 30lb of muscle, unless you are really trying to.

ORIGINAL: RollingStone

if he diets clean i really cant see him putting on fat...at least not at this stage.

he can still put fat on when bulking regardless of his stage

ORIGINAL: RollingStone

and tell you the truth he doesnt look like hes as high in bf as he thinks.  The first picture hes not sucking in at all, the other ones he looks lower than 19-20.  Maybe the lack of muscle is making it look lower than it is...idk

yes he does. not to be so in ur face about it but he does

ORIGINAL: coldfire

You won't gain 20lb of fat with 30lb of muscle, unless you are really trying to.

ok then 15lb or 10lb. of fat. some people gain fat like that really easily. regardless of how much fat he puts on just because he gains muscle doesnt mean he'll lose fat.

ORIGINAL: dapunisher

If he puts on some muscles before cutting he'd have a lot easier time melting the fat off.

of course but that could be said for anyone. u dont tell a guy who's 30% bf to bulk because cutting later will be easier. theres a point to draw the link of when "bulking will make cutting easier".

it's upto him obviously but i would never want to bulk at 20% bf

ORIGINAL: David1991
ok then 15lb or 10lb. of fat. some people gain fat like that really easily. regardless of how much fat he puts on just because he gains muscle doesnt mean he'll lose fat.

If you gain muscle while your diet remains the same you will lose fat. There is no way around it.

you think hed be able to build any muscle while on a very small deficit say -200/300 calories?  Id say thats another option that doesnt sound too bad, as long as everything your eating is quality food.

working on explosive phase
vertical: 35
weight: 206

Big 3: 300/440/515

Strength and growth come only through continuous effort and struggle.

ORIGINAL: RollingStone

you think hed be able to build any muscle while on a very small deficit say -200/300 calories? Id say thats another option that doesnt sound too bad, as long as everything your eating is quality food.

Maybe. He can try and see, though I guess it will be much harder.

ORIGINAL: coldfire

Because when you gain 30lbs of muscle you will lose fat, regardless of your diet.

ORIGINAL: coldfire

If you gain muscle while your diet remains the same you will lose fat. There is no way around it.

if u were at maintenance yea, not if u have a surplus

ORIGINAL: David1991

ORIGINAL: coldfire

Because when you gain 30lbs of muscle you will lose fat, regardless of your diet.

ORIGINAL: coldfire

If you gain muscle while your diet remains the same you will lose fat. There is no way around it.

if u were at maintenance yea, not if u have a surplus

What's the problem with these two statements? I said you can have the same diet, regardless of what it is.

And no, I don't agree about the maintenance claim, but I have no will to continue this argument. Anyway, it's not our decision.

ORIGINAL: coldfire

ORIGINAL: David1991

ORIGINAL: coldfire

Because when you gain 30lbs of muscle you will lose fat, regardless of your diet.

ORIGINAL: coldfire

If you gain muscle while your diet remains the same you will lose fat. There is no way around it.

if u were at maintenance yea, not if u have a surplus

What's the problem with these two statements? I said you can have the same diet, regardless of what it is.

And no, I don't agree about the maintenance claim, but I have no will to continue this argument. Anyway, it's not our decision.

whats wrong with the 2 statements is that first u say that regardless of what his diet is he will lose fat if he gains muscle, which makes no sense. then  say his diet would have to remain the same.

and the fact that is not our decision is what i've been saying all along. He just asked for our opinions and we both gave them, its not really gonna get any further than that

ORIGINAL: smoundzou

although you do have some body fat.. I would think it would be best for you to have a clean diet, probably slightly over maintenance, 200 cals or so and try to gain some good lean mass.. incorporate 30 minutes of light cardio into your routine.. to help burn some of the excess body fat..

The more lean muscle mass you have, the higher your metabolism will be and help rid some of the unwanted fat.. at your stage of development, I don'think cutting down any more would really be of benefit..

you should post your routine and diet...

 
Thats the best advice in this whole thread!

Current Stack: HDROL,Celltech,Superpump 250, Glutamine,Beta alanine,Whey protein.

it looks like the options have all been proposed and argued: bulk, cut, little over, or little under maintenance...successful thread, now his decision
 
a note: as you gain muscle your 'maintenance' will change, same goes for losing, so the result is that your diet at some point will have to change or you will not keep improving in which ever path you are following,
 
my opinion: smoundzo's post.  though the argument of bulking vs cutting (more than say the 200 over or under) gave some good points and is interesting. and, a rule of thumb with diet, eat until you are comfortably full rather than stopping short or forcing more food down...that should put you around maintenace, at least in the ballpark.
 
bottom line: a lot of this argument is theoretically based and, perhaps, not realistic. fact of the matter is, eat sensibly and train hard, follow a 3 day full body or 4 day upper/lower split, change things up, keep a progressive load, nail your form, dont deprive yourself of food through a full out cut that may just end up setting you back, make specific goals that you can somehow track (strength is a good one), and, rather than focusing on minute details, get to working out hard and eating healthy.
 
 

bulking/strength training

soon to begin bill starr's 5X5

current maxes: 
squats: 255
deadlifts: 300
bench: 185
oh press: 125
goals for jan 1:
squats: 300
deadlifts: 350
bench: 210
oh pressL 145 

i kind of agree with rollingstones maybe hes not 19-20 percent  bf... that mayb a slight over estimatation of his bf but regaurdless his bf the guy still wants to change. I would say eat at maintence and try to put on some muscle.. if you have w/o before maybe some muscle mem. with newb gains would help shape you up and than cuttinng will go a little easier. IMO

It is not the years in your life, but the life in your years.

ORIGINAL: IwillMakeIt

i kind of agree with rollingstones maybe hes not 19-20 percent  bf... that mayb a slight over estimatation of his bf but regaurdless his bf the guy still wants to change. I would say eat at maintence and try to put on some muscle.. if you have w/o before maybe some muscle mem. with newb gains would help shape you up and than cuttinng will go a little easier. IMO

 
I've already been doing Gym for around 3-4 months and it that time my diet was over maintenance. I'm pretty sure my noob gains have already happened. I can see significant change in my biceps and my chest is more rounded. The pictures on this topic are around 1 month old.
 
Now I really need to get my diet in shape and thats why I posted the topic here for advice.