Bill starrs 5x5
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Bill starrs 5x5 - 1/29/2007 3:32:19 PM
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David1991
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ok so ive asked some ppl on other threads this but i figure this is the best place to put it and ive already got some good answers but im just looking for every1's insight to it
im just wondering what u think about Bill Starrs 5x5 routine (http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm) i know everyones different but still there are things that work for the majority of people. my 2 main questions are....
1. does it look like a program where i could put on a good amount of strength?
2. do u think i could gain mass doing this program? because im going to have a calorie excess while doing it meaning i'll gain wieght and if im not gaining muscle mass that means ill be gaining fat which i obviously wouldnt want.
also jw wat do u think about the structure of the routine itself because one of the reasons i was wondering about it so much is because its kind of wierd in how it has u exercising (atleast from what ive seen so far). like it has one day hard then the middle day using all lighter wieghts and then the final day of the week hard to break your previous record record but with 3 reps and then u do that wieght for 5 reps the next first day of the next week, its just kind of wierd because even on the 2 hard days of the week you only do 1 hard set the entire time per muscle and the rest are just warm up and acclamation sets. so u with that info do u think its good?
thanks for any help
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RE: Bill starrs 5x5 - 1/29/2007 3:57:08 PM
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danmirage
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First as Bill created it, it is a basic strength routine.
That means AS HE CREATED IT!
Don't mess with the volume of work!
Follow his program.
So to #1..yes you can expect to increase strength here.
As to #2 yes, some but not a whole lot!
1/2 pound a week of muscle..maybe more at first. ...but slowly less and less.
Start with only a 350-500 calorie excess and not much more...that means after 1 week you should gain NO MORE than 1 pound.
MONITOR IT so you know.
You know the rules. If you do not gain weight, you did not eat right. If you gained fat and not muscle...check your diet and vary the training.
quote:
like it has one day hard then the middle day using all lighter wieghts and then the final day of the week hard to break your previous record record but with 3 reps and then u do that wieght for 5 reps the next first day of the next week, its just kind of wierd because even on the 2 hard days of the week you only do 1 hard set the entire time per muscle and the rest are just warm up and acclamation sets. so u with that info do u think its good?
I know, people are accustomed to over-reaching in their training. the heavy - light- heavy IS GOOD!
The incremental increase is as it should be. The low volume but 3x a week training is right. The light day will allow some recovery and training of different muscle fibers. Yes, you have different types of muscle fiber...and they all respond differently!
5 minutes rest is not necessary...2 to max 3 is sufficient. From clinical trials...
To quote the program:
"Substituting Exercises:
Don't **** with this. Every bodybuilder seems to have Attention Deficit Disorder and an overwhelming desire to customize everything. The bottom line is that these are all the most effective exercises and just about anything one does will result in less gains. As a rule those people who want to change it don't know enough to make proper alterations - those who do know enough, don't have much to change. "
"New or Beginner Lifters:
This is not a beginner program. You will make faster progress with less workload on a true beginner program. "
"Advanced Lifters:
After a while, linear progress doesn't work so well. You want to do this for as long as you can. And I mean, resetting and running at your records, changing some exercises, rep ranges, whatever, just keep trying to get some linear progress as you want to milk this kind of progression for all it's worth. After a while it will become pretty obvious this doesn't work for you any more. Welcome to periodization."
Don't screw around. KEEP RECORDS OF EVERYTHING.
Keep a journal here OF EVERYTHING!
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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RE: Bill starrs 5x5 - 1/31/2007 3:29:56 AM
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David1991
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Start with only a 350-500 calorie excess and not much more...that means after 1 week you should gain NO MORE than 1 pound.
MONITOR IT so you know.
alright thats for the help, i do want to gain muscle but i also want to get stronger so i guess i'll work towards getting stronger for 2 months or so then switch to gaining muscle (ive heard that once u get stronger and then when u start doing muscle building workouts again you'll gain muscle faster than you would have before because u can now lift more, is this true? or is it the same cause your still pushing your body just as hard either way?). as for wat you said about calories im gonna do wat you said in another post and start low, im gonna do a week getting about 2850 which is about maintenance for me and then if i stop gaining i have a 3200 calorie diet already made up.
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Bill starrs 5x5 - 1/31/2007 7:34:11 AM
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danmirage
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quote:
(ive heard that once u get stronger and then when u start doing muscle building workouts again you'll gain muscle faster than you would have before because u can now lift more, is this true? or is it the same cause your still pushing your body just as hard either way?).
Training response is specific to the training you do! Look at this one study..though there are plenty that show the same results:
--------------------------------------------
Muscular adaptations to combinations of high- and low-intensity resistance exercises
The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 2004 Nov;18(4):730-7
Tested long-term effects of resistance-training regimens with 3 types of regimens on serum growth hormone (GH) concentration and muscular size cross sectional area:
- hypertrophy type medium intensity (approximately 10 repetition maximum [RM]) short interset rest period (30 s)
- strength type - 5 sets of high-intensity (90% of 1RM) and low-repetition exercise
- combi-type - and a single set of low-intensity and high-repetition exercise added immediately after the strength-type regimen
Postexercise increases in serum GH concentration showed a significant regimen dependence:
hypertrophy-type was greater than combi-type which was greater than strength-type
Muscular size cross sectional area showed a significant regimen dependence:
hypertrophy-type was greater than combi-type which was greater than strength-type
--------------------------------------------
I believe it is true that possessing greater strength will allow you to use a broader range of weight and therefor extend the range of increases over which you can milk muscle gains before needing to cycle back through strength training again.
quote:
as for wat you said about calories im gonna do wat you said in another post and start low, im gonna do a week getting about 2850 which is about maintenance for me and then if i stop gaining i have a 3200 calorie diet already made up.
Awesome. You will be happy with the results!
Keep a journal so people can drool over your progress!
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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RE: Bill starrs 5x5 - 1/31/2007 1:37:54 PM
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David1991
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From: New Jersey
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lol thanks for all the info youv'e been a really big help.
how do i start one of those journals? do i just make a thread and continue posting my info on it?
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Bill starrs 5x5 - 1/31/2007 4:13:28 PM
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David1991
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From: New Jersey
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just looking at the site for progression of the 5x5, and jw how come it talks about gaining a great amount of size as well as strength when thats mainly just a strength training workout? the Max OT also talks about tremendous size increases but every1 i've talked to about it that has tried it gained alot of strength but practically no muscle.
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Bill starrs 5x5 - 2/1/2007 1:33:14 AM
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vdk_au
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I was on a routine, where it involved 9-12 reps and 45-60 second rest b/w sets, but I never managed to get even close to the required sets on my 2nd set. Anyways I've been doing 8 reps x 3 sets, with 2-3 minute rest b/w set's for the last 12 weeks, and I think I'm going alright. I'm currently on my week break, but I'll be doing 6 reps x 4 sets when I come back.
Anyways Dan have you read the book "From Scrawny to Brawny"? In the book, they go through a series of different rep ranges, going from 5x5 to triples, doubles, singles etc.
One last thing Dan, I've been reading on the Internet where they recommend ectomorphs doing lower rep ranges with longer rests time due to the fact that our cns get's taxed easily, what do you think?
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Bill starrs 5x5 - 2/1/2007 4:10:21 AM
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Master Of Puppets
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quote:
ORIGINAL: David1991
just looking at the site for progression of the 5x5, and jw how come it talks about gaining a great amount of size as well as strength when thats mainly just a strength training workout? the Max OT also talks about tremendous size increases but every1 i've talked to about it that has tried it gained alot of strength but practically no muscle.
that depends on diet, i think. if you are getting stronger, you are going to get bigger.
MOP
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(in reply to David1991)
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RE: Bill starrs 5x5 - 2/1/2007 9:30:34 AM
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danmirage
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quote:
if you are getting stronger, you are going to get bigger.
Not true at all.
Strength is a neural response, seperate from hypertrophy.
Don't even mention them in the same breath!!!!
vdk..where you gaining 1-1/2 to 2 pounds a week for those 12 weeks?
That is what one should expect when gaining mass. THAT is doing alright!
quote:
One last thing Dan, I've been reading on the Internet where they recommend ectomorphs doing lower rep ranges with longer rests time due to the fact that our cns get's taxed easily, what do you think?
Are we pretending that there is a such thing as someone who is inherently/genetically "an ectomorph?"
Like saying someone is inherently/genetically fat.
Ectomorph is a made-up class based on ratios of compared bone measurements.
It has nothing to do with your potential or your conditioning.
With a goal of gaining...If your current physique is hyper-metabolic, then your workouts should be more intense and shorter...or your caloric intake should be corrected to promote increase in muscle and slow the metabolism.
If your personal cns finds a fast pace to be unpleasant, that is a conditoning matter. We train the cns to do what we want. Granted there are some supersensative people and there are people with glandular excitability issues who are more challenged!
Now, there are some subtle groups we can put people in, that will allow some people to be more responsive to certain things and other people to be more responsive to others.
However, variation and progression are the fundamental keys to ongoing results.
If you find a certain program gets you the desired results in a positive way, then I applaud you. There is so much variation available and so many ways to "do it right!" Each an Every guru can be right...!
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to Master Of Puppets)
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RE: Bill starrs 5x5 - 2/1/2007 2:35:51 PM
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Master Of Puppets
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Not true at all.
Strength is a neural response, seperate from hypertrophy.
Don't even mention them in the same breath!!!!
So are telling me if someone's total went from 800 to 1300, and they weren't eating for size, the size of their muscles would not increase at all? (Not necessarily weight, mind you.) I find that hard to believe.
MOP
_____________________________
"Do or do not. There is no try."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
www.powerliftingforums.com
www.ironmass.com
www.hardgainer.co.uk
www.brothersofiron.com
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Bill starrs 5x5 - 2/1/2007 5:30:14 PM
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vdk_au
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From: Australia
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quote:
vdk..where you gaining 1-1/2 to 2 pounds a week for those 12 weeks?
I gained around 3 kilos so far, maybe a tiny bit less, but around there, so around .66lbs a week.
Dan, just wondering if someone went for a strength training routine, and increased their calorie intake, where would this additional calories be used for, as you mentioned that there would be a limited amount of muscle being built.
< Message edited by vdk_au -- 2/1/2007 5:31:16 PM >
(in reply to Master Of Puppets)
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RE: Bill starrs 5x5 - 2/1/2007 5:42:46 PM
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danmirage
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Sorry, I meant 1/2 to 2 pounds a week!
.66 lbs is a reasonable gain!
On a strength routine it is a great gain!
quote:
Dan, just wondering if someone went for a strength training routine, and increased their calorie intake, where would this additional calories be used for, as you mentioned that there would be a limited amount of muscle being built.
The body is very complex. When you eat more food and you train hard, sometimes the body responds by BURNING the extra food...meaning it upregulates the metabolism! This little trick sometimes makes gaining mass hard for all of us.
When you train in a power/strength manner, the post workout caloric expenditure is much more than was previously understood. However if you do not eat enough, naturally much of this does not happen or some fat and some muscle (usually mostly muscle in this case) is used for the deficit.
quote:
So are telling me if someone's total went from 800 to 1300, and they weren't eating for size, the size of their muscles would not increase at all? (Not necessarily weight, mind you.) I find that hard to believe.
I know. It has taken us a while to understand the relationship. Look at the strongest lifters in the world. Big men, high bodyfat % on many...
THe body does its best to keep a balance.
I did not say there is NO muscle gain, rather that it is minimal.
I simply said that the idea that increase in muscle size was automatically tied to increase in strength or increase in strength was automatically tied to increase in muscle size was incorrect.
Otherwise the strongest people in the world would have the most muscle!
And the biggest bodybuilde4rs would be the strongest...neither of which is absoutely true!
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to vdk_au)
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RE: Bill starrs 5x5 - 2/2/2007 3:31:08 AM
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David1991
Posts: 8095
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
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dan i think was vdk was asking was if your doing a strength training routine and have a calorie excess does the extra calories go to muscle building or fat since you said earlier that not that much muscle would be built on the strength training routine.
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Bill starrs 5x5 - 2/2/2007 7:57:44 AM
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danmirage
Posts: 6300
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quote:
The body is very complex. When you eat more food and you train hard, sometimes the body responds by BURNING the extra food...meaning it upregulates the metabolism!
The simplified answer is..the body either burns it or stores it.
If it stores it, it is either fat or muscle.
The stimulus for hypertrophy in strength training is not as significant as the stimulus in a specific hypertrophy routine would be.
Accumulation of muscle is based on responses to a specific training regimen and on the unique, specific combination of fiber types you posses, as well as other obvious factors like rest, lifestyle, etc.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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RE: Bill starrs 5x5 - 2/2/2007 1:02:55 PM
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David1991
Posts: 8095
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
Status: online
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alright that makes sense,
oh and one last thing i forgot to ask you about, in each workout theres assistance sets to be done, i was wondering if..
1. i could do the curls and tricep extensions that are set to be done on friday on wednesday because i only have 45 min. at the gym and i dont think i could fit those in along with everything else, i dont see why doing that would be a problem but im jw
2. are these assistance sets all supposed to be to failure with the set amount of reps?
- sry about the ridiculous amounts of questions about this program but i have like OCD when it comes to stuff like that
(in reply to danmirage)
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