Bill Starr's (or Madcow) 5x5 routine vs. Rippetoe's Starting Strength

Okay, I see this coming up a lot.  A lot of people are ready to jump into the popular Bill Starr (or Madcow) 5x5 routine.  This is a great routine, and I do believe that this type of training is superior to other "modern bodybuilding" methods.

There is one thing to consider about this routine.  It is that you increase your lifts every week when following the layout for this routine. 

Obviously, you should always be increasing the weight you use for the basic lifts, but why not make the increases every single workout? 

The Starting Strength routine is essentially the same exact program, except it is set up so that you add weight to your lifts every single workout.  It is referred to as a "novice" routine, but according to Rippetoe a "novice" is defined as someone that is capable of making linear progress every workout.  So even if you have been lifting for 8 years, and you are capable of making increases in weight every workout, you would still be considered a novice.

So in order to make the best use of your time in the gym it may be wise to start out with the Starting Strength "novice" routine before jumping into the 5x5 "intermediate" routine.

In Summary:

Bill Starr's or Madcow's 5x5 routine:
- Based on increasing the squat, deadlift, bench, OH press, and power clean
- called an "intermediate" routine
- makes small increases in your 5RM once a week

Rippetoe's Starting Strength routine:
- Based on increasing the squat, deadlift, bench, OH press, and power clean
- called a "novice" routine
- makes small increases in your 5RM every single workout

So why wait 3 weeks to add 15 lbs. to your squat, when you could do it in one week?

I've said this many times before, but it was in response to other posts.  I figured that I would make a thread about it just so people would understand that the two routines are both trying to accomplish the same exact thing - increase the weight of the main lifts in a linear manner.  The only difference is how often the trainee is physically capable of making the weight increases. 

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

Brihead, something to consider.. On madcow's version of starrs 5X5 Intermediate program, the weight does increase from the 1st weekly workout to the 3rd with the 2nd workout being a somewhat lighter day.  I believe the reason the program is structured this way is to allow enough frequency to stimulate muscle growth but to also allow enough rest so the trainee doesn't over-reach within the first 5-6 weeks of the program.. This actually makes sense when you consider the type of tonage that is being moved around on this type of program.  Friday's workout consisting of: 4X5, 1X3 and 1X8... If the trainee has accurately calculated out their 5RM, this type of routine can litterally put your D@#$ in the dirt by the end of the cycle.. 
 
This is only my opinion and can't speak for the person who actually formulated the program..

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

You are right about that Smound, but it's only structured that way to allow for recovery.  Intermediate lifters can not recover as quickly as novices, and in order to be able to continue to make weekly progress they have to be recovered enough by the day of the weight increase.

It's all about recovery and having enough energy to be able to complete the lifts.

The ultimate goal of both of these two programs is getting stronger at completing the main 5 lifts.  Intermediate lifters (or lifters that are unable to make novice gains) require different programing to be able to make gains in the most efficient way possible, which is why the "light day" is added in there.

It comes down to getting from point A to point B in the fastest way possible.  Point A being where you are at now with your lifts, and point B being as strong as you can possibly be at an intermediate (non-competing) level.  The path between point A and B starts off in a novice fashion, and it then reaches a point where novice programming is no longer possible, so intermediate programming is required to finish the job.  Why not start out moving faster if physically possible, and then "slow down" and continue making weekly progress?

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

I don't disagree with anything you said below... I've always said, do as little as it takes to make progress... Once a muscle is damaged enough for growth, no need in continuing. 

If a lifter is capable of continuing to make progress with starting strength it would almost be foolish to do start off doing a 5X5... Save the 5X5 until you actually need to do it.

Which happens to be one of my biggest complaints.. seeing someone training for 1.5 to 2 hours daily, doing body part routines... especially the ones who have little to no muscle mass... how much work do they actually think they need to do to induce stimulation and damage to those underdeveloped muscles?  

brihead301


You are right about that Smound, but it's only structured that way to allow for recovery.  Intermediate lifters can not recover as quickly as novices, and in order to be able to continue to make weekly progress they have to be recovered enough by the day of the weight increase.

It's all about recovery and having enough energy to be able to complete the lifts.

The ultimate goal of both of these two programs is getting stronger at completing the main 5 lifts.  Intermediate lifters (or lifters that are unable to make novice gains) require different programing to be able to make gains in the most efficient way possible, which is why the "light day" is added in there.

It comes down to getting from point A to point B in the fastest way possible.  Point A being where you are at now with your lifts, and point B being as strong as you can possibly be at an intermediate (non-competing) level.  The path between point A and B starts off in a novice fashion, and it then reaches a point where novice programming is no longer possible, so intermediate programming is required to finish the job.  Why not start out moving faster if physically possible, and then "slow down" and continue making weekly progress?

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

Which is a huge misconception ranging from any age. I know several guys who wont ever try a full body routine let alone squats/deadlifts because they live by the muscle magazines and isolations. I know a guy who spends 3-4 hours in the gym, most of the time socializing but...come on. The more time spent at a gym nets how much muscle your body puts on right?

Regarding the original post, I like it Bri. All though this question is going to get asked regardless :P

In most cases, with most people I think SS and that form of adding each workout will be best for most people. If your unsure, SS still would still work and more than likely be your best bet.

And your right, all these programs aim for the same thing but just go about accomplishing it differently based on where your at regarding progressing.

Which happens to be one of my biggest complaints.. seeing someone training for 1.5 to 2 hours daily, doing body part routines... especially the ones who have little to no muscle mass... how much work do they actually think they need to do to induce stimulation and damage to those underdeveloped muscles?  

brihead301


You are right about that Smound, but it's only structured that way to allow for recovery.  Intermediate lifters can not recover as quickly as novices, and in order to be able to continue to make weekly progress they have to be recovered enough by the day of the weight increase.

It's all about recovery and having enough energy to be able to complete the lifts.

The ultimate goal of both of these two programs is getting stronger at completing the main 5 lifts.  Intermediate lifters (or lifters that are unable to make novice gains) require different programing to be able to make gains in the most efficient way possible, which is why the "light day" is added in there.

It comes down to getting from point A to point B in the fastest way possible.  Point A being where you are at now with your lifts, and point B being as strong as you can possibly be at an intermediate (non-competing) level.  The path between point A and B starts off in a novice fashion, and it then reaches a point where novice programming is no longer possible, so intermediate programming is required to finish the job.  Why not start out moving faster if physically possible, and then "slow down" and continue making weekly progress?

I've actually gone from an adaption of SS to HST, and I have to say I like SS for the strength gains. I'm currently on my fourth week of HST, though I'm not sure if I'm gaining muscle at a quicker rate or not, and since my body finds it really difficult to gain muscle. Though I'm definitely going back to my old routine when I finish HST.

How come Rippetoe's body isn't in better shape?

Just because the man isn't cut up like a model doesnt mean he isnt in good shape. He actually talks about the fad that is ripped 6 pack abs in starting strength, expresses his opinion about that pretty clearly there.

Have you seen the video on youtube of him squatting what was it 315 10 times. Pretty good shape if you ask me.

Acujeremy


How come Rippetoe's body isn't in better shape?

current 5rm On the texas method
Squat:340
Deadlift:380
Bench:265

currently 233 lb's
goal is eventually a lean 220 play some kind of pro football
Target 40yd time: 4.5

He used to be a competitive powerlifter.  Squatting in the 600's, deadlifting in the 700's, powercleaning in the 400's.  Strong dude, but doesn't care for trying to look like an ambercrombie model.

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

What section does he talk about the six pack?

I think where he talks about the diet part of it.   He says something about how so many skinny boys are so worried about losing sight of thier abs that they never gain the muscle that they desire.

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

brihead301


I think where he talks about the diet part of it.   He says something about how so many skinny boys are so worried about losing sight of thier abs that they never gain the muscle that they desire.

I'll agree with that, but I also don't see anything wrong with wanting to look good. It was as much my desire to look good again as it was my desire to be healthy/strong that drove me to get serious about diet/working out and drop almost 50 lbs. this year. But ya, I guess there are a lot of guys that get so wrapped up in their 6-pack and wonder why they never make any progress in the gym. Not this guy though, I've already said my goodbyes to my summer abs and started a clean bulk!

Age: 26 Height: 5'10
Weight as of 8/31/08: 160lbs.
Current weight: 180lbs.
Semi-Clean Bulkin!
Current Maxes as of 6/4/08:
Squat: 250lbs.
Deadlift: 255lbs.
Bench: 285lbs.

[<font]The point is that in order to look "good" like all "big and muscly" you have to gain the muscle first.  You gotta eat a lot and lift heavy to do that, and you will most likely lose your six pack.  Then you can cut the fat off if you want to get all cut looking.

Me, I just care about the first part. 

And it's not like you're even gonna look bad either even if you're not all ripped looking.  If you're working out hard and eating right, you will look great.  I look damn good, and I don't have a 6-pack.   I never did.

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

Well he is 51 now, so its understandable to have a bit of a gut. But was he ever ripped? I just don't understand the point of Squatting 600 lbs, if you are not going to be healthy looking. A pot belly, is not a sign of health. Was he ever in good shape?

Rippetoe also says he thinks that without the muscle to show ab's are pointless pretty much.

But your right, depending on where the trainee comes from is really going to shape how they perceive this problem. Theres nothing wrong with wanting to look good, I think regardless of what anyone says everyone wants to look good. It just varies because the way people perceive good can drastically change from one person to the next.

I just think rippetoe made a great point in his book, If you dont have the ice chest to put the 6 pack in, then whats the point. But again, thats what he perceives as looking good, I happen to agree with.

But then you add in magazines, models, and how society can determine everything by your abs or lackthereof :P

and you can kind of start to understand why people think like this. Have any of you ever seen old school paintings and art? people were proportionate but not ripped to shreds. Look at the statue of david, proportionate and defined BUT not super ripped 6 pack abs.

MDClifter

brihead301


I think where he talks about the diet part of it.   He says something about how so many skinny boys are so worried about losing sight of thier abs that they never gain the muscle that they desire.

I'll agree with that, but I also don't see anything wrong with wanting to look good. It was as much my desire to look good again as it was my desire to be healthy/strong that drove me to get serious about diet/working out and drop almost 50 lbs. this year. But ya, I guess there are a lot of guys that get so wrapped up in their 6-pack and wonder why they never make any progress in the gym. Not this guy though, I've already said my goodbyes to my summer abs and started a clean bulk!

current 5rm On the texas method
Squat:340
Deadlift:380
Bench:265

currently 233 lb's
goal is eventually a lean 220 play some kind of pro football
Target 40yd time: 4.5