Before bed on Keto?

ORIGINAL: IBendBarbells

You stated that it takes more calories to digest the protein that you consume correct? Then if my protein levels are at 240 - 250 right now I may actually be wasting some of the total calories I am eating by having the protein up so high.. So maybe I should just replace with more carbs and fats.. Maybe more vegetables ? Don't vegetables them self help digest the nutrients you consume?

well 240-250 really isnt that high for 4000+ calories, its at most 25%. being an ecto it might be good for u to add more carbs as long as ur already getting as much protein as ur body is going to use. vegetables arent really gonna help weight gain much, they're great for health benefits but u'd have to eat pounds of brocolli for it to have a weight gaining effect.

brocolli for it to have a weight gaining effect.

I may just do that hahahaha.

lol every ounce is about 10 calories so good luck if u wanna add even 300 calories of vegetables. lol 30 oz. of brocolli. the most ive had at one time was like 22oz.

ORIGINAL: David1991

lol every ounce is about 10 calories so good luck if u wanna add even 300 calories of vegetables. lol 30 oz. of brocolli. the most ive had at one time was like 22oz.

I was totally joking. Nah Ill just figuring something out to kick up those carbs probably sweet potatoes cause I never eat them.

In short, I have found that if you want to gain mass, you need to look to use each of the energy systems at its optimal so that the body is not having to compensate for a shortage. 

Additionally, we know that insulin is anabolic and if you are training and your diet is optimal that is a benefit.  Add in the items discussed by everyone in this thread about fat being pro anabolic, carbs being pro anabolic...we know the importance and role of protein...

However I feel that many people trying to bulk consume too much protein.  As in my gaining mass post, I advocate for using the right amount of protein for each person's oxidative and training needs.

When it comes time to cut, then you start to modulate carb/protein and sometime fat ratios.

As for calories:

...when gaining, the best results come from starting with the LOWEST possible calories and GRADUALLY raising them to maintian the rate of gains.

...when cutting it is the reverse, starting with the highest calories and decreasing...but NEVER dropping the amount of protein consumed.

<<Wait but in this study they decreased their carbs from 48 - 8 %
They consumed dietary energy.. so fats? What were they consuming for their total calories if only 8% were from carbs.. I am a little confused on that one "sorry I am a meat head" >>

<<u really dont need to have protein that high when bulking. ive heard that after about 1.14g of protein per lb. of LBM >>

Let me look to see if Dr. Kraemer gives that info in the full paper, if not I will ask him!

Again, you want to start with the LOWEST calories when bulking (at your optimal ratio) and that means your protein intake will gradually increase over time. 

Is there a value in this?  YES!!!  It was found that the body acclimates to the amount of protein consumed and "wastes" an intake modulated portion of it, so gradually increasing has the effect of creating a pool of available proteins...which primes a few anabolic processes...etc..

<< Then if my protein levels are at 240 - 250 right now I may actually be wasting some of the total calories I am eating by having the protein up so high.. So maybe I should just replace with more carbs and fats.. Maybe more vegetables ? Don't vegetables them self help digest the nutrients you consume?>>

Vegetables help to keep the body alkyline...which is PRO-anabolic - SO THEY DO HELP YOU TO GAIN MUSCLE!!!.  In addition to all the other benefits.

Whole food Protein is highly metabolic and takes 20-25% of the calories consumed to process it. 
500 calories from protein takes 100-125 calories to process!

Many hard gainers mistakenly increase protein and not lower metabolic macronutrients, which their oxidative process may require for the most favorable gains!

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hey guys quick q: would you recommend to me the keto diet or carb cycling for a cut? (thinking about 1-2 lb/week for 6-7 weeks)

Weight: 179.6
Currently: bulking
BF%=11

ON Whey Protein
MHP Probolic SR (Casein)
Xtend
Green Mag

ORIGINAL: danmirage

However I feel that many people trying to bulk consume too much protein.  As in my gaining mass post, I advocate for using the right amount of protein for each person's oxidative and training needs.

When it comes time to cut, then you start to modulate carb/protein and sometime fat ratios.

As for calories:

...when gaining, the best results come from starting with the LOWEST possible calories and GRADUALLY raising them to maintian the rate of gains.

...when cutting it is the reverse, starting with the highest calories and decreasing...but NEVER dropping the amount of protein consumed.

Again, you want to start with the LOWEST calories when bulking (at your optimal ratio) and that means your protein intake will gradually increase over time. 

Whole food Protein is highly metabolic and takes 20-25% of the calories consumed to process it. 
500 calories from protein takes 100-125 calories to process!

those things being said, what ratio is in ur opinion optimal for a person with a slow metabolism looking to clean bulk? it seems like ur protein ratio's are pretty low in ur guide and carbs are pretty high if im remembering correctly. i think i already know what im planning on doing for my bulk but i'd like to have ur input since im trying to do my best to put on as little fat as possible.

Each person has a unique and individual chemistry.  There is no "slow metabolism."  You need the calories you need to maintain, lose, or gain based on what you teach your body.  Metabolism is something we manipulate.
 
The ideal ratio to allow you to gain maximum muscle while you put on as little fat as possible is based entirely on YOUR oxidative chemistry, diet and training.
 
However, (as you know) excess calories..being those in excess of what you will use for energy and muscle gain... will likely contribute to fat accumulation.
 
So, gradual increase based on your response to diet and frequent modulation of training intensity would be my recommendation.  I give guidelines for how to determine and manipulate the ratios of P/C/F.
 
Start with "too few" calories so you can find the right beginning points.
 
I assume when you say this, "it seems like ur protein ratio's are pretty low in ur guide and carbs are pretty high" - that you are one of those people who consumes very little carbs, high protein and perhaps feels they are a slow gainer....so you eat more protein and less carbs to keep from adding "the wrong type" of weight...???
 
I say this because I have seen it many times.  Let me work based on that assumption...(so you know where I am coming from):
 
Yes, when you raise carbs you will gain up to 10 pounds right away!  No that is not fat...That is water:  Stored with glycogen in muscle.  You basically just gain +-10 pounds of muscle because muscle is roughly 75% water.
 
Then it takes roughly 6 weeks for the protien wasting enzymes to fully go away and be replaced by enzymes that properly metabolize carbs and properly utilize proteins for building (it shifts over 6 weeks) ....so you have a few weeks of thinking you are in hell! 
 
To avoid that, you simply start where you are (probably +-30% carbs or something?) and add 5% per week.  With fats at 30%.
 
No matter what, you have to wait for the body to start to return to a balanced state to see an optimal response.
 
One way to help is to start by doing short, high intensity training.  Get the T and gH to blast into the system, but spare muscle.  Then shift training as your system starts to respond differently.
 
Alternately you can simply switch the diet and go from there.  Either way, it works out.
 
If you are not tracking changes in your body through calipers and circumference (and pictures) it is harder to tell what is happening.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

Each person has a unique and individual chemistry.  There is no "slow metabolism."  You need the calories you need to maintain, lose, or gain based on what you teach your body.  Metabolism is something we manipulate.

 
With the exception of thyroid disease... either hyper- or hypo-.  These two conditions actually do affect metabolism, either speeding it up or slowing it down. 
 
So, I agree to the extent that for the person who is euthyroid (normal) there probably is no such thing as a fast or slow metabolism.  It is what it is. 

ORIGINAL: danmirage

Each person has a unique and individual chemistry.  There is no "slow metabolism."  You need the calories you need to maintain, lose, or gain based on what you teach your body.  Metabolism is something we manipulate.

The ideal ratio to allow you to gain maximum muscle while you put on as little fat as possible is based entirely on YOUR oxidative chemistry, diet and training.

However, (as you know) excess calories..being those in excess of what you will use for energy and muscle gain... will likely contribute to fat accumulation.

So, gradual increase based on your response to diet and frequent modulation of training intensity would be my recommendation.  I give guidelines for how to determine and manipulate the ratios of P/C/F.

Start with "too few" calories so you can find the right beginning points.

I assume when you say this, "it seems like ur protein ratio's are pretty low in ur guide and carbs are pretty high" - that you are one of those people who consumes very little carbs, high protein and perhaps feels they are a slow gainer....so you eat more protein and less carbs to keep from adding "the wrong type" of weight...???

actually no, i can gain weight very fast which seems to be my problem. i add calories and go up like 2 pounds with like 40% of it being fat.

I say this because I have seen it many times.  Let me work based on that assumption...(so you know where I am coming from):

Yes, when you raise carbs you will gain up to 10 pounds right away!  No that is not fat...That is water:  Stored with glycogen in muscle.  You basically just gain +-10 pounds of muscle because muscle is roughly 75% water.

Then it takes roughly 6 weeks for the protien wasting enzymes to fully go away and be replaced by enzymes that properly metabolize carbs and properly utilize proteins for building (it shifts over 6 weeks) ....so you have a few weeks of thinking you are in hell! 

To avoid that, you simply start where you are (probably +-30% carbs or something?) and add 5% per week.  With fats at 30%.

No matter what, you have to wait for the body to start to return to a balanced state to see an optimal response.

well im going to start bulking tomorrow and i was planning on starting at 30%c/40%p/30%f (roughly) and im currently at 25%c/45%p/30%f. also i would be switching the cardio to HIIT on days off and maybe some low intensity cardio on workout days.  does that sound good? and by adding 5% carbs per week do u mean as needed for weight gain? i mean obviously u wouldnt just continue going up and up.

oh and also my calories are at 2020 right now and i was going to start bulking with 2400 but im thinking now maybe it would be best to only go upto like 2100 or keep it the same because im going to being raising the % of carbs from 25 to 30 and more importantly i'll be dropping cardio from 7 sessions a week of about 600 calories burned to 5 sessions of about 300 calories burned which is a huge difference, so what do u think about that?

One way to help is to start by doing short, high intensity training.  Get the T and gH to blast into the system, but spare muscle.  Then shift training as your system starts to respond differently.

Alternately you can simply switch the diet and go from there.  Either way, it works out.

If you are not tracking changes in your body through calipers and circumference (and pictures) it is harder to tell what is happening.

With the exception of thyroid disease...

Yes...barring a number of medical conditions...
 
If you are training that much and eating that little in carbs...
 
The idea I advocate for is to switch calories to a "healthier" ratio.  In your situation, I would recommend switching to 45% cards and 25% protein in one go and waiting out the hormone and enzyme shift before making any judgements.
 
Also, your carbs burned estimate is likely to be higher than you really burn.  If you train that much, your body has adapted.
 
How are you determining that?

actually no, i can gain weight very fast which seems to be my problem. i add calories and go up like 2 pounds with like 40% of it being fat.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

With the exception of thyroid disease...

Yes...barring a number of medical conditions...

If you are training that much and eating that little in carbs...

The idea I advocate for is to switch calories to a "healthier" ratio.  In your situation, I would recommend switching to 45% cards and 25% protein in one go and waiting out the hormone and enzyme shift before making any judgements.

Also, your carbs burned estimate is likely to be higher than you really burn.  If you train that much, your body has adapted.

How are you determining that?

actually no, i can gain weight very fast which seems to be my problem. i add calories and go up like 2 pounds with like 40% of it being fat.

im not sure if the first part was directed towards me or not. anyway i dont think switching to 45% carbs would be smart for me as i put on fat very easily, and wouldnt it be smart to make it a gradual change so i dont just gain alot of fat?

>>Also, your carbs burned estimate is likely to be higher than you really burn.  If you train that much, your body has adapted.<<

what exactly are u saying? lol sry i mean i get it mostly but are u saying i burn up all my carbs and more?

about how i determined the fat gain it was mainly by the waist measurement method i used to do (last bulk was before i had calipers) but i could see the added fat too and the waist measurement readings seem to stay within 1% or so of the caliper measurements but are certainly less consistent.

oh and lastly what do u think about the calorie changes for tomorrow when i start my bulk? do u think it will be needed at all with the large reduction in cardio and the increase in % of carbs?

No, I would say to start with the lowest calories you can and inch your way up gradually...
 
Chart your caliper, circumference and scale measures...when you are not gaining weight or muscle ...then raise the calories.
 
I expect you to say, "i put on fat very easily," based on the way you eat.  Your whole diet/training would make your chemistry tend toward wanting to store fat when it can.
 
You might want to take a week OFF cardio!  Let your body de-acclimate...then start up 3x a week a week later if you need to..but I prefer a minimum of cardio for bulking (warm up and cool down plus some HIIT)...you get to eat less.
 
That was to read: Also, your calories burned estimate is likely too high, that is  - more than you really burn.  If you train that much, your body has adapted.
 
About this:

7 sessions a week of about 600 calories burned to 5 sessions of about 300 calories burned

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

No, I would say to start with the lowest calories you can and inch your way up gradually...

Chart your caliper, circumference and scale measures...when you are not gaining weight or muscle ...then raise the calories.

ok in that case i think i'll keep my calories the same (2020 atm) with a slight increase in % of carbs. im thinking the large drop in cardio will assist in weight gain

tomorrow is a scheduled carb up day though so i plan on still doing that seeing as how my diet is hardly changing so the carb up would still be necessary.

ORIGINAL: danmirage
I expect you to say, "i put on fat very easily," based on the way you eat.  Your whole diet/training would make your chemistry tend toward wanting to store fat when it can.

You might want to take a week OFF cardio!  Let your body de-acclimate...then start up 3x a week a week later if you need to..but I prefer a minimum of cardio for bulking (warm up and cool down plus some HIIT)...you get to eat less.

well i like to eat more lol. but still do u think its smart to just drop all the cardio? especially with tomorow being a carb up day i try to make sure i do some exercise on that day (i was planning on doing HIIT when i woke up tomorow morning).  also i have swim 3x this week so already i have to do some but i was thinking along with that do the HIIT tomorow and monday. and then the next week dropping it to only 3 cardio sessions a week. do u think thats bad and i should just do the swim? i mean like i said i try to make sure i do exercise on carb up days....

ORIGINAL: danmirage
That was to read: Also, your calories burned estimate is likely too high, that is  - more than you really burn.  If you train that much, your body has adapted.

About this:

7 sessions a week of about 600 calories burned to 5 sessions of about 300 calories burned

o ok gotcha, ur right its probably not 600 but i do vary the type and intensity fairly often so i think its still pretty high and there would still be the large drop of calories burned if i just swithced it to 5 sessions at "300 calories burned"

If you were paying me to get you optimal results, I would have you take a week off, I would also bring up your carbs and lower your protien in that week...but stay isocaloric.
 
The next week I would start you just on resistance training.  I would take up to 4 weeks to get a baseline on how your body is responding. 
 
After that, changes in training and diet as you gain more and more muscle would be necessary.
 
When you reach your LBM goal +10%, we would take a break and then come back and do a modulated cut.
 
Once you reach your goal...then start a cyclic maintenance schedule

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