Before bed on Keto?

it refers to actual studies and references them, but yeah you can never be totaly sure about credibility without going to the original studies

yeah, its crazy interesting...and super complex

the poly part got me too, im going to have to look more at poly fats, because i know that they are essential, hence efa, but apparently not with test levels so much.

after some looking around:
poly fats contain the omegas (which everyone knows) which the body cannot produce/produce enough of and aid in the development of cells and healthy skin, omega-3 is optimal over omega-6 which has some question marks on whether or not it can be bad. poly provide benefits to overall health it appears

so its necesarry, but may not be necesarry for test levels i suppose

edit: ive learned a lot about fat today haha

bulking/strength training

soon to begin bill starr's 5X5

current maxes: 
squats: 255
deadlifts: 300
bench: 185
oh press: 125
goals for jan 1:
squats: 300
deadlifts: 350
bench: 210
oh pressL 145 

ORIGINAL: IBendBarbells

I may have mis-understood you.

 
Oh, no probs.

 
Anyways this does bring up a question that I have...

Now the Keto diet is more of an anabolic type diet.. I mean the fats that your consuming have anabolic effects on the body.. "But" I don't believe saturated fats have these affects, I thought they only come from Essential fatty acids... The type of fats that come from fish / flax oil / leafy veggies / Nuts etc.. If this is the case you might as well throw the cheese stick out the window and eat a can of tuna fish.

Am I wrong?

 
Keto is actually a cutting diet.  The fats are for energy: they are incompletely "burned" and the results are ketones.  Sure, you can overeat even on keto and gain weight.  In fact, some people do a keto bulk.  I might try it after I lose the excess fat I want to.  In fact, since I can't eat carbs if I want to bulk it will have to be keto.  Sat fats are what are use to make the steroid hormones.. testosterone, estrogen, progesterone, aldosterone, etc. 
 
There's lots of good information and really knowledgeable people (I bow in awe of them  ) at www.c-k-d.com and http://forum.bodybuilding.com/forumdisplay.php?f=61

ORIGINAL: edrice2

it refers to actual studies and references them, but yeah you can never be totaly sure about credibility without going to the original studies

yeah, its crazy interesting...and super complex

the poly part got me too, im going to have to look more at poly fats, because i know that they are essential, hence efa, but apparently not with test levels so much.

after some looking around:
poly fats contain the omegas (which everyone knows) which the body cannot produce/produce enough of and aid in the development of cells and healthy skin, omega-3 is optimal over omega-6 which has some question marks on whether or not it can be bad. poly provide benefits to overall health it appears

so its necesarry, but may not be necesarry for test levels i suppose

edit: ive learned a lot about fat today haha

I read that they do affect the test levels though.. thats what's really throwing me off.. it's like which information is the correct information. I may have to go to the book store.

http://www.musculardevelopment.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=83
 
theres another good read on poly fats and testosterone...goes as far as poly in place of sat and mono is negatively correlated w test levels...though that isnt really a realistic comparison since no one is going to do that with a keto diet
 
though, as minatour said it too keto isnt necesarily just an anobolic diet at the core of it...fats, or ketones, function as glucose does typically and limits insulin spikes...thats the primary point of the diet
 

bulking/strength training

soon to begin bill starr's 5X5

current maxes: 
squats: 255
deadlifts: 300
bench: 185
oh press: 125
goals for jan 1:
squats: 300
deadlifts: 350
bench: 210
oh pressL 145 

ORIGINAL: IBendBarbells


Man this really gets me interested... Okay so on the down side most foods containing higher amounts of saturated fats also have higher cholesterol levels.. Like cottage cheese for instance has a **** load of cholesterol. The part that really got me is the polyunsaturated fat does not affect the test levels..


Thanks for posting that it really cleared up some questions I had and where I was confused.

cottage cheese doesnt have a lot of cholesterol or saturated fat. just buy the fat free or 1% fat kind and 1/2-1 cup before bed is perfect along with like an egg or nuts

damn all this talk about keto and the fatty foods makes me wanna go back on a keto diet lol

ORIGINAL: David1991

ORIGINAL: IBendBarbells


Man this really gets me interested... Okay so on the down side most foods containing higher amounts of saturated fats also have higher cholesterol levels.. Like cottage cheese for instance has a **** load of cholesterol. The part that really got me is the polyunsaturated fat does not affect the test levels..


Thanks for posting that it really cleared up some questions I had and where I was confused.

cottage cheese doesnt have a lot of cholesterol or saturated fat. just buy the fat free or 1% fat kind and 1/2-1 cup before bed is perfect along with like an egg or nuts

 
18% sat fat
25mg cholesterol
 
in the 4% milk fat cottage cheese.   
 
Not sure about the 1% but I just read the 4%

The article referenced does NOT quote scholarly sources for this discussion.  However it says this..
 
"Moreover, foods high in healthy Omega 3s fatty acids would also be good sources of T-raising fat."
 
So really they are only saying that increased PUFA  (polyunsaturated fat) consumption does not seem to exhibit this T-raising behavior.  However, I do not see anywhere that it exhibits a T-lowering behavior, though it does exhibit a large number of heath enhancing benefits.  This reinforces the need for a mixed fat intake ratio.
 
The standard athletic recommendations are:
Less than 1/3 from Saturated fat
1/3 Polyunsaturated
More than 1/3 Monounsaturated
 
To clarify...
 
Cholesterol is a steroid that can be modified to form the anabolic steroids by the body.  The body can produce cholesterol and/or it can come from dietary sources.  Plant oils do not contain the dietary cholesterol we are referring to.
 
It is important to keep in mind that there are combined effects to diet that are far more profound that single view manipulations.
 
(Kramer et all, in researching this topic conclude: "The data indicate that protein and fat intake may influence serum testosterone concentrations and that the changes in exercise-induced testosterone responses may contribute to muscle mass development during strength training.  Moreover, changes in the free testosterone responses to heavy-resistance exercise correlated with the increases in the muscle.")
 
For instance:
 
Looking at the consistent findings in peer-reviewed research with athletes, we find this-
 
A diet with a very high protein intake will lower total T levels and raise cortisol levels. These are both anti-anabolic effects.  Additionally, protein lowers SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) and increases GH secretion. These are both beneficial effects.
 
The inverse of these effects can be seen with carbohydrate consumption.
 
High fat intake, over 40% and low fat intake, below 15% have both been shown to reduce T-levels.
 
Since we want the best of both worlds...high T & GH and Low SHBG & cortisol...finding the optimal intake would seem to be the best approach long-term training.
 
Naturally, as bodybuilders we are manipulating the body to achieve better than average responses in muscle gain and/or fat loss.

My Journal Gain Muscle - http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/fb.ashx?m=111173 Lose Fat - http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/fb.ashx?m=111175

Thank you so much for responding to the thread, You just helped me out a ton! I really did need everything broken down for me, it was kind of in bits and peaces on the thread and not really clear to me.

ORIGINAL: danmirage
For instance:

Looking at the consistent findings in peer-reviewed research with athletes, we find this-

A diet with a very high protein intake will lower total T levels and raise cortisol levels. These are both anti-anabolic effects.  Additionally, protein lowers SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) and increases GH secretion. These are both beneficial effects.

high protein will lower test. levels? roughly how high?

The inverse of these effects can be seen with carbohydrate consumption.

so high carbs will raise T levels? I've never heard that before.

High fat intake, over 40% and low fat intake, below 15% have both been shown to reduce T-levels.

Since we want the best of both worlds...high T & GH and Low SHBG & cortisol...finding the optimal intake would seem to be the best approach long-term training.

So would that meal moderate everything would yield the best results?

Naturally, as bodybuilders we are manipulating the body to achieve better than average responses in muscle gain and/or fat loss.

Diet-hormone interactions: protein/carbohydrate ratio alters reciprocally the plasma levels of testosterone and cortisol and their respective binding globulins in man.
 
Anderson KE, Rosner W, Khan MS, New MI, Pang SY, Wissel PS, Kappas A.


The aim of this study was to determine if a change in protein/carbohydrate ratio influences plasma steroid hormone concentrations. There is little information about the effects of specific dietary components on steroid hormone metabolism in humans. Testosterone concentrations in seven normal men were consistently higher after ten days on a high carbohydrate diet (468 +/- 34 ng/dl, mean +/- S.E.) than during a high protein diet (371 +/- 23 ng/dl, p less than 0.05) and were accompanied by parallel changes in sex hormone binding globulin (32.5 +/- 2.8 nmol/l vs. 23.4 +/- 1.6 nmol/l respectively, p less than 0.01). By contrast, cortisol concentrations were consistently lower during the high carbohydrate diet than during the high protein diet (7.74 +/- 0.71 micrograms/dl vs. 10.6 +/- 0.4 micrograms/dl respectively, p less than 0.05), and there were parallel changes in corticosteroid binding globulin concentrations (635 +/- 60 nmol/l vs. 754 +/- 31 nmol/l respectively, p less than 0.05). The diets were equal in total calories and fat. These consistent and reciprocal changes suggest that the ratio of protein to carbohydrate in the human diet is an important regulatory factor for steroid hormone plasma levels and for liver-derived hormone binding proteins.
--------------------------
Body composition and hormonal responses to a carbohydrate-restricted diet.
 
Volek JS, Sharman MJ, Love DM, Avery NG, Gómez AL, Scheett TP, Kraemer WJ.

Human Performance Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology, University of Connecticut, Storrs, CT 06269-1110, USA.
 
The few studies that have examined body composition after a carbohydrate-restricted diet have reported enhanced fat loss and preservation of lean body mass in obese individuals. The role of hormones in mediating this response is unclear. We examined the effects of a 6-week carbohydrate-restricted diet on total and regional body composition and the relationships with fasting hormone concentrations. Twelve healthy normal-weight men switched from their habitual diet (48% carbohydrate) to a carbohydrate-restricted diet (8% carbohydrate) for 6 weeks and 8 men served as controls, consuming their normal diet. Subjects were encouraged to consume adequate dietary energy to maintain body mass during the intervention. Total and regional body composition and fasting blood samples were assessed at weeks 0, 3, and 6 of the experimental period. Fat mass was significantly (P <or=.05) decreased (-3.4 kg) and lean body mass significantly increased (+1.1 kg) at week 6. There was a significant decrease in serum insulin (-34%), and an increase in total thyroxine (T(4)) (+11%) and the free T(4) index (+13%). Approximately 70% of the variability in fat loss on the carbohydrate-restricted diet was accounted for by the decrease in serum insulin concentrations. There were no significant changes in glucagon, total or free testosterone, sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I), cortisol, or triiodothyronine (T(3)) uptake, nor were there significant changes in body composition or hormones in the control group. Thus, we conclude that a carbohydrate-restricted diet resulted in a significant reduction in fat mass and a concomitant increase in lean body mass in normal-weight men, which may be partially mediated by the reduction in circulating insulin concentrations.
-----------------------------

This is why that is ideally a cutting strategy not a bulking strategy.
 
SHBG binds free T.  So high levels of it are not ideal. 
While total  T can be higher with high Carbs, SHBG is also higher.
 
Best results?  That depends on your goal!
Extreme leanness would require a modified diet vs. an optimal diet for growth and energy.

My Journal Gain Muscle - http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/fb.ashx?m=111173 Lose Fat - http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/fb.ashx?m=111175

oh ok, those are pretty interesing studies

Body composition and hormonal responses to a carbohydrate-restricted diet.

Wait but in this study they decreased their carbs from 48 - 8 %

They consumed dietary energy.. so fats? What were they consuming for their total calories if only 8% were from carbs.. I am a little confused on that one "sorry I am a meat head"





So your saying even carbohydrates them self can increase test levels.


I was reading a book in the book store about 2 weeks ago and it was saying that often when bulking and looking for muscle mass you don't need to be consuming that much protein.. They actually had the protein at 20% and the fats and carbs at 40% in the particular diet I was reading about... The total calories were 20x the total body weight of the person. What is your opinion on this dan?

ORIGINAL: IBendBarbells

Body composition and hormonal responses to a carbohydrate-restricted diet.

Wait but in this study they decreased their carbs from 48 - 8 %

They consumed dietary energy.. so fats? What were they consuming for their total calories if only 8% were from carbs.. I am a little confused on that one "sorry I am a meat head"

i know this is directed towards dan but they would just get all the rest of their calories from high protein and fat

ORIGINAL: IBendBarbells

I was reading a book in the book store about 2 weeks ago and it was saying that often when bulking and looking for muscle mass you don't need to be consuming that much protein.. They actually had the protein at 20% and the fats and carbs at 40% in the particular diet I was reading about... The total calories were 20x the total body weight of the person. What is your opinion on this dan?

thats true from everything ive read. u really dont need to have protein that high when bulking. ive heard that after about 1.14g of protein per lb. of LBM u dont really use much of it, of course thats a generalization but still. i mean for u 1.14g times ur LBM of about 190 is 216g x 4 calories per gram is 864 calories from protein which is only 21.6% of ur diet (if ur diet is 4000 calories). personally i keep protein high but only so i dont have higher carbs, and protein takes more calories to digest

I feel like a retard for the first question, thanks david That was only obvious lol.


As for the second question you really have me thinking.. I mean at 20x my body weight in calories and then only 1 g for every 1 lb that really would be a much lower % of protein needed for the bulk.. Which actually ends up making that book I read some pretty informative information for my self.

You stated that it takes more calories to digest the protein that you consume correct? Then if my protein levels are at 240 - 250 right now I may actually be wasting some of the total calories I am eating by having the protein up so high.. So maybe I should just replace with more carbs and fats.. Maybe more vegetables ? Don't vegetables them self help digest the nutrients you consume?