Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II

im thinking in order to keep things simple i'll just make a big batch of bars for the whole day so they stay edible since they'll be cooked and should keep things simple

im thinking of just blending/mixing this all up into a badder and cooking it into 12 bars and having 2 per meal.

5.75 cups oats- 1725 calories, 57.5g protein, 310.5g carbs, 28.75g fat
4 scoops PP- 360 calories, 68g protein, 8g carbs, 6g carbs
16 egg whites- 275 calories, 57.6g protein, 3.9g carbs, 1g fat
7tbsp. Peanut butter- 700 calories, 31.5g protein, 21g carbs, 56g fat
Total; 3060 calories, 214.6g protein, 343.4g carbs, 91.75g fat = 3057.75
               28.1%p      44.9%C         27%f

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=346329

Lots of ideas..add some cinnamon!

Add a little pepper...add a touch of cayenne!
(Not too much of the last two)

That looks like a lot of egg whites...are you sure about that amount?  You want them to be eatable!
Remember consider 1 yolk per four 4 whites...dont lose those Omega 3s!

I can't find my recipe!

how many meals a day do u use that MRP? i would think having it too much definitely isnt good compared to real food but i guess if its the only choice then its necessary

I use it for meals where 1) I can not get to another meal 2) I have no time for a meal
When I am on a trip, I have sometimes 3 a day at the most.
I always have fresh veggies with my MRP.
There is 25% p / 45%c / 30% fat in mine
I mix them to suit my current diet as far as calories.

lol i may have asked this in the past but what bodytype would u say u are?    i'm not saying i wont enjoy myself once or twice when im up in the poconos but i know most of those foods would pack some serious fat on me

Body type?  I dont subscribe to that because I have changed my body type throughout my life.  I have watched hundreds of people do that same.
We control our body type over time ...it does not control us.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=346329

Lots of ideas..add some cinnamon!

how do those bars stick together without eggs? i thought eggs were needed to keep them from being mushy and/or falling apart

ORIGINAL: danmirage
That looks like a lot of egg whites...are you sure about that amount?  You want them to be eatable!
Remember consider 1 yolk per four 4 whites...dont lose those Omega 3s!

well like i said above, i thought they would be needed to keep it together


other than that does it look good for the day? would adding baking soda preserve it a little better?

Baking powder would simply make them fluffy.
VitC crystals (citric acid) might be a preservative.
Cinnamon is a mild preservative.

You could test prepare a batch..maybe 1/6.
It looks fine, however.

If you have a whole food with it, a fruit or veggie..you should be in good shape for muscle maintenance.

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alright cool, so i have that for all of saturday, dinner with them and one shake on friday, and i guess i just i'll have to make some bars or something for sunday.
thanks for the advice, this will work better than 12 shakes lol

with those protein bars on bodybuilding.com though, how do they stick together? it seems like it would be really gooey and wouldn't actually cook

also is blending the oatmeal going to make it significantly higher GI even with all the other food? i'd rather blend it but i could see the problem with that

Some of those are gooey.  Some are not cooked.

You could lightly toast 1/2 the oats...

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

Some of those are gooey.  Some are not cooked.

You could lightly toast 1/2 the oats...

hmm well i cant have it gooey so i guess the eggs will be fine.

toasting the oats? i assume that would just help make it cruchier...

alright well it looks like im set for this weekend as far as food goes, thanks. now i just have to finish the hours of homework i have before i go

i woke up this morning for my weigh in
weight: same
muscle: lost 1.5lb.
fat: gained 1.5lb.

i dont know whats going on! i've taken ur advice 100% and even though my results have been very poor for the most part lately i've been trying to "act happy" and not care because i dont wan't stress messing me up more. but i can't help it now. i have a near perfect diet, no cheating at all. i'm following a good workout routine, that changes reps, sets, exercises, and adds to the load continuously. why am i not getting even average results?

i know at first i was to expect some wierd things switching over to higher carbs but its been about 5 weeks now and so far every single week i've lost muscle and gained fat except 1. the first week i switched over and 2. last week when i started chad waterbury's program.
i know things take time but i shouldn't be moving back wards, especially this fast, i mean i'm not even just maintaining.
hopefully i can find a way to make this work.....i really like bodybuilding but mainly because its a way to constantly improve oneself

sorry for the rant, but i could use some ideas/help/explanation

Don't WOORRRRY!
This is what you expected for this week.

This week was a wait and see experiment.
Remember the discussion on 3/1?

Why do we lose muscle?  One reason is that we are burning more calories than we consume and the body wants to lower the caloric expenditure.

Do you recall me ever talking about skinny fat people and the effect of excessive cardio?
The people who ate too little and did lots of activity and burned off their muscle mass?
they burn lots of fat mass off too, after that.  but they are sarcopenic...low lean mass ratio.

Anyway, you just learned that you are not eating enough to support more muscle.
It looks like you have been borderline and your body is still primed to consume protein readily.
Not unexpected because your carbs are still borderline a bit low for supporting all the activity you do as well as muscle growth demands, and the easy place the body can get instant carbs..is muscle.  Two birds with one stone: lowers expenditure and converts proteins to glycogen.

Stop the stress.  This IS the game of bodybuilding. 
If it really stresses you then maybe it is not the right game.
You want to find a game that is exciting for you and relieves stress!

Try this.  Put the scale and calipers away and train for fun for the next week after the trip.
Don't weigh in or take measurements or worry about anything but enjoying your training.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

Don't WOORRRRY!
This is what you expected for this week.

This week was a wait and see experiment.
Remember the discussion on 3/1?

Why do we lose muscle?  One reason is that we are burning more calories than we consume and the body wants to lower the caloric expenditure.

Do you recall me ever talking about skinny fat people and the effect of excessive cardio?
The people who ate too little and did lots of activity and burned off their muscle mass?
they burn lots of fat mass off too, after that.  but they are sarcopenic...low lean mass ratio.

Anyway, you just learned that you are not eating enough to support more muscle.
It looks like you have been borderline and your body is still primed to consume protein readily.
Not unexpected because your carbs are still borderline a bit low for supporting all the activity you do as well as muscle growth demands, and the easy place the body can get instant carbs..is muscle.  Two birds with one stone: lowers expenditure and converts proteins to glycogen.

well that does make sense

so u suggest i raise calories with mainly carbs this week or an even ratio?    how many calories do u think i should raise?

ORIGINAL: danmirage
Stop the stress.  This IS the game of bodybuilding. 
If it really stresses you then maybe it is not the right game.
You want to find a game that is exciting for you and relieves stress!

i dont think i could stop if i wanted to lol, i really do like it and like learning more about it...it's just that its mainly only fun when i'm improving myself.

ORIGINAL: danmirage

Try this.  Put the scale and calipers away and train for fun for the next week after the trip.
Don't weigh in or take measurements or worry about anything but enjoying your training.

funny u should mention that, i was actually thinking in the last week "since ive only gotten good results the 2 weeks i changed things up alot, like diet and my routine, what would happen if i just went into the gym 3 days a week and trained how i wanted to that day, just picking a weight with the appropriate sets per whatever good exercise i chose and doing how many reps i felt like"

but for now don't u think it would be best to continue with the routine by C.W.?  i feel like ive been jumping back and forth between stuff routines lately ( from 3 day split, to 3 day full body, to C.W.'s routine  all in about 4-5 weeks) and that i should stay consistent with it since i just started this routine.

by the way i start tennis on monday so i'm going to drop the HIIT and just have tennis as my cardio...which im sure over 5 practices per week will burn more than 3 HIIT sessions so that might be important for how much i should raise calories/carbs

(and snowboarding trip had a last min. cancellation)

Too bad about the trip.  Remember pre during and post for tennis.

Yes, bring up carbs for just this week.

See how you respond.  Another learning week.

Next week you will probably still need more calories to gain. 
So then raise in a balanced ratio.

I see no problem with jumping around as long as each jump represents some form of progression over the last in an view of the last 4 months of training.

It would be fine to continue CWs plan.  Also if you want to inturrupt that for a week with just training as you want for fun, that is great too.  You have something to go back to.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

Too bad about the trip.  Remember pre during and post for tennis.

Yes, bring up carbs for just this week.

See how you respond.  Another learning week.

Next week you will probably still need more calories to gain. 
So then raise in a balanced ratio.

-ok for tennis i'll have to do what i did for swim and switch my meal 6 to pre tennis and put the scoop of protein powder in it. meal 6 has cottage cheese though for slow digestion throughout the night...since my current meal 5 would become meal 6 is not having the casein protein before bed going to hurt my gains?

since its only carbs how much would be appropriate to raise this week (also considering tennis is starting) to gain muscle? 

ORIGINAL: danmirage

I see no problem with jumping around as long as each jump represents some form of progression over the last in an view of the last 4 months of training.

It would be fine to continue CWs plan.  Also if you want to inturrupt that for a week with just training as you want for fun, that is great too.  You have something to go back to.

alright, i think i'll continue with CW's plan for now and maybe try that week for fun in another 2 weeks when the rep ranges change...to see how i respond.

meal 6 has cottage cheese though for slow digestion throughout the night...since my current meal 5 would become meal 6 is not having the casein protein before bed going to hurt my gains?

Thats rediculous.  Cottage cheese before bed?
Switch to a real meal.  Chicken breast or turkey, broccoli, and rice or something!
You don't need that fast acting sugar before bed.
The vegetable will slow the nutrient clearance.
The carbs will spare protein for muscle and feed the body while you repair and grow, and feed the brain...which needs CARBS!

Now...for the carbs...you can do 250 you can do 300.  With your meal, a little more rice here, a baked sweet potato there...thats all you need.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

Thats rediculous.  Cottage cheese before bed?
Switch to a real meal.  Chicken breast or turkey, broccoli, and rice or something!
You don't need that fast acting sugar before bed.
The vegetable will slow the nutrient clearance.
The carbs will spare protein for muscle and feed the body while you repair and grow, and feed the brain...which needs CARBS!

seriously?? i cannot tell u how many times i've heard/read to have something like cottage cheese and nuts/peanut butter before bed to have protein available throughout the night. i mean isn't the fact that its casein helpful before going to sleep? i've never heard it being called "fast acting".  and also to avoid carbs at night (i knew u were against that already though)

btw it wasn't just cottage cheese. recently i've been having CC, PB, oatmeal, and an egg (veggie needed too).
cottage cheese is fine in general right? i usually have it twice a day

ORIGINAL: danmirage
Now...for the carbs...you can do 250 you can do 300.  With your meal, a little more rice here, a baked sweet potato there...thats all you need.

ok, i assume thats to be added to all days regardless of exercise or not.  i think i might lean towards 300 with tennis starting

now u said carbs will cause weight gain the first week and then it will taper off/lose weight correct? and that after that point i can start adding in a balanced ratio

also, i dont have to worry about it now with tennis but in the future while bulking if i do cardio first thing in the morning is just a scoop of protein ok or should i have carbs pre run as well?

is too much fiber a problem as far as gaining muscle goes? i just checked and i was getting about 20g of fiber from just oatmeal, then theres the whole wheat bread and vegetables too. and with adding carbs this week that would of course go up

I said: "fast acting sugar"

The idea to avoid carbs at night...when the goal is to retain and gain muscle...no.

Carbs are protein sparing, they are growth promoting.

Cottage cheese is a milk product.  You may be sensitive to milk products.
If the goal is leanness, milk products are not necessarily optimal.

ok, i assume thats to be added to all days regardless of exercise or not.

Ideally.  Also remember, 300 is very conservative! 
You are not gaining weight or losing weight...so normally 500 in a balance would be the ideal.
Carbs will help to spare protein and make it more available for muscle.
Carbs will also affect the hormone profile.

also, i dont have to worry about it now with tennis but in the future while bulking if i do cardio first thing in the morning is just a scoop of protein ok or should i have carbs pre run as well?

This depends on frequency, intensity, type and duration.
Cardio in a fasting state (after waking up in the morning) when the goal is optimal muscle gains?  Not ideal.
You heard what Dan G. said about cardio, muscle building, fat burning and the connection of enzymes?

During cardio you have 2 sources of energy (depending on many factors: stress, diet, etc)
Glycogen and/or fat.  Notice the and...it is not necessarily going to burn much fat.
Glycogen comes from stored and circulating sources and/or from converting muscle into glycogen.

Cardio increases caloric expenditure.

You have to ask yourself what your goal is and WHY you are doing "cardio."
Then you have to structure all other factors around supporting that goal in order to get the best outcome.

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ok thats good to know. if i didn't see the great results u've got  and all the knowledge u have on the subject i'd think u were crazy some of this is against all of what i've read in the last 2 years....

oh and literally like 10 seconds before u replied i added something so i guess u didn't see it

"is too much fiber a problem as far as gaining muscle goes? i just checked and i was getting about 20g of fiber from just oatmeal, then theres the whole wheat bread and all the vegetables too. and with adding carbs this week that would of course go up"

Dan, I have a question.

You said if someone gained fat and lost muscle it would be to lower the calorie expenditure and use the muscle as glycogen. Wouldn't it be possible that the person just ate too much at certain times so he gained fat and not enough around his workouts or had insufficient workouts so he would lose muscle?

Fiber above around 35 grams can start to impede the absortion of some nutrients.
Your weight could go up from high fiber and have no idea why...increased water retention.

You said if someone gained fat and lost muscle it would be to lower the calorie expenditure and use the muscle as glycogen. Wouldn't it be possible that the person just ate too much at certain times so he gained fat and not enough around his workouts or had insufficient workouts so he would lose muscle?

I did not say if anyone lost muscle and gained fat...I said if someone ON AN IDEAL MASS GAINNIG PLAN saw those results.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

Fiber above around 35 grams can start to impede the absortion of some nutrients.
Your weight could go up from high fiber and have no idea why...increased water retention.

well i guess it probably wouldnt be much over 35. maybe 40ish...i dont think that'll be too much of a concern.

how many hours/min before going to sleep should the last meal be? ive always had it about 1 hour before sleeping

1-2 hours is fine for most people.

40 is quite high actually.  30-32 is good.  Over 35 is high.

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ok i finished making my diet.
it came out to be
TOTALS: 3309.5 calories, 222.37g protein, 397.65g carbs, 96.69g fat = 3350.29
             26.55% protein   47.48% carbs   25.98% fat

48% from carbs and especially 400g of carbs seems excessive for someone like me. i guess i'll have to see how i react but i dont think ive ever taken this many carbs in before, even when i was eating around 3700 calories.

Well, look at how active you are!

I have to say that I am surprised at the high calories at your weight.
But you probably brought that on by eating so much protein and at the same time increasing your gut clearance.

When you take your break..consider dropping calories to something like 2500 when you com back..keep the ratio the same as before.
Then as you lose weight (fat and maybe some muscle) gradually increase again...you will probably see nice gains after you pass your prior setpoint.

What has been your highest LBM to date?

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

Well, look at how active you are!

I have to say that I am surprised at the high calories at your weight.
But you probably brought that on by eating so much protein and at the same time increasing your gut clearance.

i guess im active, but i dont think im that active compared to the average person involved in a fitness lifestyle.
i'm surprised too with the calories though since im a definite "endo", i know u dont really believe in the body types but basically i put fat on very easily lol so im a little worried about adding so much carbs when i'm already putting on a lot of fat

ORIGINAL: danmirage

What has been your highest LBM to date?

to date the highest LBM i've had is 142.5lb.
that was with the waist measurement way to find it out though. since i've started using calipers (about 2 months into cutting so i probably lost some LBM) the most LBM i've had was 138.8lb.
why?

So you are currently right around the max LBM you have ever seen.

Additionally, your FM is perhaps low (by your body's standards.)

You focus more of your thought/mental energy on the concern for gaining fat than muscle.
I think it may be time for you to do some real mental work. 
How does that work?  I will give you the reader's digest version:
You surround yourself with imagery that supports your goal.
You spend time each day thinking about success.
When you go to bed, you visualize success and be grateful and ecstatic that you will get it.
When you wake, take a moment to again visualize success and be grateful and ecstatic that you will get it.
Speak only in terms of what you want to attain and your gratitude for attaining it.

Don't say that you are not getting better just because your Lean mass is not rising!
You are in better shape now than ever.  You know more about your own fitness now than ever!
If you gained 5 pounds of fat and 10 pounds of muscle, you know how to lose the fat!
You are in control.

Now is the time to focus on gaining some more muscle and setting a new top LBM for yourself.

This sport is complex..there are many things that can set us back, some of them powerful and subtle...

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

So you are currently right around the max LBM you have ever seen.

Additionally, your FM is perhaps low (by your body's standards.)

You focus more of your thought/mental energy on the concern for gaining fat than muscle.
I think it may be time for you to do some real mental work. 
How does that work?  I will give you the reader's digest version:
You surround yourself with imagery that supports your goal.
You spend time each day thinking about success.
When you go to bed, you visualize success and be grateful and ecstatic that you will get it.
When you wake, take a moment to again visualize success and be grateful and ecstatic that you will get it.
Speak only in terms of what you want to attain and your gratitude for attaining it.

Don't say that you are not getting better just because your Lean mass is not rising!
You are in better shape now than ever.  You know more about your own fitness now than ever!
If you gained 5 pounds of fat and 10 pounds of muscle, you know how to lose the fat!
You are in control.

Now is the time to focus on gaining some more muscle and setting a new top LBM for yourself.

This sport is complex..there are many things that can set us back, some of them powerful and subtle...

well believe me i spend ALOT of time thinking about gaining muscle.

the last 4 weeks or so i've been reading more articles than i have since i started out...i've been listening to dan gastelu and other BBing related podcasts since i got my ipod (also 4 or so weeks ago)
i try to focus on my goals of gaining LBM, and occasionally visualize

the only thing i've noticed as far as mentality goes is that ive been more focused on keeping bf% low over gaining LBM.

but as i said, i do focus a lot on it.

one of the reasons i've been stressing so much about the fat gain is because its like a timer for my bulking. once i get to 15% or so my cut starts and i want to gain the most muscle i can in that time

something i've always wondered. when experts say to "focus on ur fitness goals, visualize, etc..."   is that for the person to stay motivated and work hard or does that physically help ur attempts to gain muscle/lose fat?  i dont have motivation problems and always push as hard as necessary but if it actually makes a physical change somehow then i guess i could do even more "mental work" towards my goal

1) it helps in attaining the goal
2) Since your goal was muscle gain..."ive been more focused on keeping bf% low over gaining LBM"...are your focus and your goal at odds?
3) Success visualization as an act, that is, something you do actively AM and PM and passively throughout the day is different from focusing on the sport, different from "i do focus a lot on it....and occasionally visualize"

4) "once i get to 15% or so my cut starts and i want to gain the most muscle i can in that time"

That is backward. 
Your goal is based on gaining fat!!
If your goal is to gain fat, we are going about this all wrong! 

How about setting a muscle gaining goal?

If your end goal is to be 180 at 10% 
Then you are talking about gaining up, to end the gain close to 195-200 lbs at some Bf% and cutting down to close to 180.

Or you can do it in steps, this would be using MANY MANY steps...150 lbs LBM at x%?  THEN cut.  160 lbs LBM. THEN cut. 170 lbs LBM. THEN cut. 180 lbs LBM. THEN cut. 190 lbs LBM. THEN cut to 180 at 10%.

I prefer to do it in fewer steps myself, depending on the time needed to attain the goal.
But it is nice to have cutting interspersed with the gaining sometimes because you can modulate protein and calories and really work the transition times.  Though, you can do that when you take a week off as well.

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well ive only really set short and long term goals.
short term: getting back to my Max LBM of 142.5lb.

long term: 225 at 10% bf

i would like to get to 180 at 10% body fat but im not willing to go to 195-200 in one go because i know by that point my bodyfat will get upto about 20% or higher (unless i could find a way to stay lean which doesn't seem to be something i can do). thats the reason i first said "cut once i get to 15%bf", because i'd like to bulk as long as i can but once i gain too much fat i'll have too cut.

from one week ago today
gained: 1.53lb of fat
gained:  0.22 of LBM which im guessing is water weight from the extra carbs

ORIGINAL: David1991

from one week ago today
gained: 1.53lb of fat
gained:  0.22 of LBM which im guessing is water weight from the extra carbs

Of course, when you lose muscle, its just muscle...but when you gain..its only water...!

PLEASE!
Volumizing (increaseing tissue size...primarily with fluid) is one of the first steps to larger muscles!

This is a good sign.  A small change in calories stopped your weight loss and muscle loss.
That shows you tapped the right hormones.  You are not accustomed to them, but those are the ones that make you grow.

Now pick your head up, train those muscles, and watch them get bigger!

If you feel, in a week that the gains are too fast...just scale back 500 calories across the board.
See how this goes for a few weeks.  You should be gaining more muscle and adding calories back in no time.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

Of course, when you lose muscle, its just muscle...but when you gain..its only water...!

PLEASE!
Volumizing (increaseing tissue size...primarily with fluid) is one of the first steps to larger muscles!

well im assuming it was water weight because of the extra carbs. also i normally weight myself after going to the bathroom, this morning i didnt.

ORIGINAL: danmirage

This is a good sign.  A small change in calories stopped your weight loss and muscle loss.
That shows you tapped the right hormones.  You are not accustomed to them, but those are the ones that make you grow.

Now pick your head up, train those muscles, and watch them get bigger!

If you feel, in a week that the gains are too fast...just scale back 500 calories across the board.
See how this goes for a few weeks.  You should be gaining more muscle and adding calories back in no time.

well i'll see how it goes but this is really startng to affect me, ive never gone this long in the opposite direction of my goals. its just depressing i guess but im trying not to think about the negatives, and i am trying to think about the good in it. its hard to see how this could be good though.

let me see if i can understand this. ur saying that by raising calories/carbs i "tapped into" a certain hormone so that i will now gain weight? and that even though i gained a lot of fat i can now gain muscle?
why the large fat gain at all though? i mean i expected fat gain but i was really expecting a good amount of muscle this week with the increase in sets and higher carbs.

if i take away 500 calories across the board wouldnt that just put me way back? i mean i only added 300 this week. and if i took it away evenly that would be about 240 from carbs and 260 from fat and protein.

on a good note tennis has been fun lol

just an aside, in ur opinion what bf% do u think someone should reach before they cut? (i know that depends on preference, if they compete, etc..., but in general...or what u do)