Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II

PWO - post just protein unless you have to get a whole meal..then the oatmeal is fine.
 
Do not taper the diet through the day.  You want to grow.
 
Yes, warm up 3-5 minutes to get your heart rate up then start. cool down the same.  Bring your heart rate down.
 

by that example u mean A1 eccentric part of the lift is fast and A2 eccentric part of the lift is slow right? i never really thought fast eccentric did much since its kind of just dropping the weight

A1/B1/off A2/B2/off
That is the A1 and A2 example....
 
Eccentric DECELERATION...that means lowerng the weight under accelerated control and stopping it then holding it there for 2 seconds before the next concentric lift/press.  This is a proven mechanism for growth and adaptation.  This is VERy different than droping the weight.

 
ur above split example would be for later progression right? but u reccomend i start with the full body 3 days a week 3 sets per bodypart per workout right

You can train the whole body in about 40 minutes
Chest, Back, Leg, Shoulder, Bi, Tri
3 sets each, 9-12 rep range with low rest (30-45 seconds)
Your breathing should become faster and stay fast...
Staring here gives you lots of wiggle room...
In a week you can go to 4 sets
Next week you can add Hams, Calf, abs and switch to A/B/off
 

ok so u suggest i go to positive failure on each set? my reps usually drop by about 2-3 reps if i use the same weight and went to failure with that weight the set before.

As long as you know the difference between Failure and positive failure.
You do as many reps as you can..you do not PLAN the reps, just the rep range.
You stop when you know you can not do another. Not after you have failed to do another.

u said going to 45 seconds rest but lower reps is still progression, but obviously if u did like 2 reps per set it wouldnt be.

The reps go down on their own when you shorten the rest period!
You try to do as many as you can.
Reps go up on their own when you rest longer, 90 seconds, 120 seconds...
 

kind of like when is the point where its no longer progression? same with the superset, it seems like overall that would make the workout less intense (although for that one i see what ur saying since the rest between sets for chest would go down)

If you do 2 exercises non-stop it is more intense than if you do the first exercise, rest 90 seconds, do the next exercise rest 90 seconds...
 

This is based upon my body’s chemistry (which, it has been determined through testing and feedback, favors higher fat and lower carbohydrates) and my goal of gaining muscle with a minimum of fat gain.  My target is 3000 calories with 25% of the total from Protein, 30% of the total from fat and 45% of the total from carbs.
 
This is a very low carb portion and very high fat portion of total intake and based upon research and statistics would be very inappropriate for 87% of people.

There are roughly 7 graduations for optimal diet based on individual chmistry.  I give 3 main categories in my gaining mass thread (then this represents the optimal range for 33% of people in that view)  It is really in a spectrum.  Where the optimal for any healthy individual fits somewhere on the spectrum.
 
I can gain muscle even faster if I go to 50% carbs or 55% carbs...but also, I sometimes gain more fat.

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That was yes about the 3-day routine to start....

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

kind of like when is the point where its no longer progression? same with the superset, it seems like overall that would make the workout less intense (although for that one i see what ur saying since the rest between sets for chest would go down)

If you do 2 exercises non-stop it is more intense than if you do the first exercise, rest 90 seconds, do the next exercise rest 90 seconds...

yea what i meant was that in ur example u say progression would be going from supersetting back and chest to just working straight sets for chest. and i was saying i thought supersetting them together would be more intense. but i see how it would be progression since it is less time between sets for chest (in ur example)

ORIGINAL: danmirage

That was yes about the 3-day routine to start....

ok thanks. im making my diet and routine now and will have it ready by tomorrow morning.

ORIGINAL: danmirage

Do not taper the diet through the day.  You want to grow.

hmm, ok then. i thought it would make more sense to have less when ur burning less but ive seen arguments for both sides. it seems strange to me that u would want just as much carbs at night though. thats the same thing i noticed tom venuto suggested too (not tapering for bulking) and im a big fan of his work too.

i noticed ur meal plan was divided into 5 meals. i mentioned something dealing with 5 or 6 meals before so we kind of covered it. but would u reccomend 5-6 or is it more based on how long im awake, whats more convenient, etc....

Progression is ANY change in the routine that varies the intensity adn introduces a new stimulus...which, by its nature means you need to adapt and threfor is "more intense"
 
Intensity is not about how hard YOU think you are working!
Progression can be cyclic...
 
This is a Meta-progression:
Hypertrophy, 12 weeks
Strength 6 weeks
Cutting 8 weeks
 
MEals based on how long you are awake...and the interval you choose for your meals.
Then you divide the calories up and let it rip!

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ah, i see.
as far as supplements go i am taking whey protein and a multi-vitamin.

would u suggest anything else that would significantly increase gains? i'm thinking of buying creatine since thats the most studied and backed up supplement. ive taken it before though and idk if i really saw a big change.

Creatine enhances training and response to training.
You can use it or not.  You have it in the body already.
 
If stress is a big issue, you might think about a stress formula.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

Creatine enhances training and response to training.
You can use it or not.  You have it in the body already.

If stress is a big issue, you might think about a stress formula.

well would the creatine make a significant difference in positive results? ive heard so much about it but its not like u can always believe these advertisements and even studies sometimes

Okay i changed my diet alot. i think it could still use some tweaking but my friend is here and he's already been bored watching my change it for the last hour lol

any changes u would make to make it more optimal would be appreciated


i think i need to get calories a little lower like u suggested and put fruit pre-workout right?  do u think meal 3 is enough chicken? it seems like a lot of carb sources and only 2 oz. of chicken but the ratio's worked out right. and i would need a fibrous vegetable in meals 3 and 6 i guess.

Pre workout
-Protein powder, 1 scoops: 90 calories, 17g protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
-oatmeal, 1/3 cup: 100 calories, 3.3g protein, 18g carbs, 1.67g fat
SUBTOTALS: 190 calories, 20.3 protein, 20g carbs, 3.17g fat

Pre run
-Protein powder, 1 scoops: 90 calories, 17g protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
SUBTOTALS: 90 calories, 17 protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat

Meal 1 (post workout)
-Oatmeal, 1 cups: 300 calories, 10g protein, 54g carbs, 5g fat
-2.2oz Banana: 55 calories, .6g protein, 13.75 g carbs, 0.25g fat 
-Protein powder, 1.5 scoops: 135 calories, 25.5g protein, 3g carbs, 2.25g fat
-1 oz. Chicken breast: 33 calories, 7g protein, 0 carbs, 0 fat
SUBTOTALS: 523 calories, 43.1g protein, 70.75carbs, 8.75g fat

Meal 1 (non-workout days)
-Oatmeal, 1 cup: 300 calories, 10g protein, 54g carbs, 5g fat
-2/3 tbsp, natural PB: 67 calories, 3g protein, 2g carbs, 5.33g fat
-Protein powder, 1 scoops: 90 calories, 17g protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
-Banana, 1 oz.: 25 calories, .25g protien, 6.25g carbs, 0.1g fat
-1 oz. Chicken breast: 33 calories, 7 g protein, 0 carbs, 0 fat
SUBTOTALS: 515 calories, 45.25g protein, 64.25g carbs, 13.18g fat
 
Meal 2
-Cottage cheese, 1/2 cup: 100calories, 15g protein, 6g carbs, 1.125g fat
-oatmeal, 1/2 cup: 150 calories, 5g protein, 27g carbs, 2.5g fat
-chopped spinach 2oz.: 60 calories, 4g protein, 8g carbs, 0g fat
-Peanuts, 1/2 oz: 80 calories, 3.5g protein, 3g carbs, 7g fat
-2.2oz Banana: 55 calories, .6g protein, 13.75 g carbs, 0.25g fat 
SUBTOTALS: 445 calories, 28.1g protein, 57.75g carbs, 10.875g fat

Meal 3
-Whole wheat bread, 2 pieces: 200 calories, 8g protein, 36g carbs, 3g fat
-Chicken breast, 2 oz: 67 calories, 14g protein, 0 carbs, 0 fat
-oatmeal, 1/3 cup: 100 calories, 3.3g protein, 18g carbs, 1.67g fat
-Miracle whip, 1 tbsp: 20 calories, 0g protein, 1g carbs, 1.5g fat
-Peanuts, 1/2 oz: 80 calories, 3.5g protein, 3g carbs, 7g fat
SUBTOTALS: 467 calories, 28.8g protein, 58g carbs, 13.17g fat


Meal 4       
-2 tsp. Olive oil: 80 calories, 0g protein, 0g carbs, 9.33g fat
-1/4 cup Tomato sauce: 15 calories, 0g protein, 4g carbs, 0g fat
-4oz. Broccoli: 40 calories, 3.2g protein, 7.5g carbs, .4g fat
-3oz. Salmon: 125 calories, 16.4g protein, 0g carbs, 6.8g fat
-oatmeal, 1/2 cup: 150 calories, 5g protein, 27g carbs, 2.5g fat
SUBTOTALS: 420 Calories, 24.6g protein, 38.5g carbs, 19.03g fat

Meal 5
- about 6 egg whites / or substitute, 1/2 cup: 60 calories, 12g protein, 2g carbs, 0g fat
-2 whole egg: 140 calories, 12g protein, 2g carbs, 9g fat
-3oz. Broccoli: 30 calories, 2.4g protein, 5.7g carbs, .3g fat
-sweet potato 6oz.: 155 calories, 3.5g protein, 35.5g carbs, .3g fat
SUBTOTALS: 385 calories, 29.9g protein, 45.2g carbs, 12.1g fat
 
Meal 6 
-Cottage cheese, 3/4 cup: 150 calories, 22.5g protein, 9g carbs, 2.25g fat
-1 tbsp, natural PB: 100 calories, 4.5g protein, 3g carbs, 8g fat
-1 whole egg: 70calories, 6g protein, 1g carbs, 4.5g fat
-1/4 cup oatmeal: 75 calories, 2.5g, 13.5g carbs, 1.25g fat
SUBTOTALS: 395 calories, 35.5g protein, 26.5g carbs , 16g fat
                                      
TOTALS: 2771.25 calories, 209.725g protein, 304.45g carbs, 85.675g fat = 2827.775
             29.67% protein   43.07% carbs   27.27% fat

i'll start that tomorrow



WORKOUT
squat 3x9-12
Deadlift 2x9-12
DB bench 3x9-12
pulldown 1x9-12
Military press 3x9-12
barbell curl 3x9-12
skull crushers 3x9-12

60 seconds rest in between. the next week i will add 1 set to each exercise and add calves, hams, and forearms. it seems really short though, like i would finish in about 30min. but i guess that leaves room to progress
the next week i will take rest down to 45 seconds next week i will try to add a rep to each set.   doing all of that with the same weight is still good progression from what ive read here.

each set to positive failure. only thing is like i said my reps drop a lot after failure but i guess i'll have to see how it goes.

well would the creatine make a significant difference in positive results? ive heard so much about it but its not like u can always believe these advertisements and even studies sometimes

Remember, supplement are the extra..you can do just fine without creatine.
 
Meal 2 I would take out the banana...put that in the Pre workout
a fibrous vegetable in meals 3 and 6 i guess...yes please.
 
I also recommend at least using rice interchanged with oatmeal...you need variety.
 

1 set to each exercise and add calves, hams, and forearms

Do these in different weeks...milk it!
 

only thing is like i said my reps drop a lot after failure but i guess i'll have to see how it goes

Something is not jiving...you are not going to failure...you are going to positive failure...which is the last rep BEFORE failure.
Your reps may have dropped before...that is from your low carbs...not enough energy in the muscles...but now you should see a different response.  Your reps may drop a little...

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

well would the creatine make a significant difference in positive results? ive heard so much about it but its not like u can always believe these advertisements and even studies sometimes

Remember, supplement are the extra..you can do just fine without creatine.

alright i wont go on the creatine now, especially since that will add even more water weight which i dont want more of the first week.

when i reintroduce all these carbs and gain water weight that will show up on my measurements as LBM right? or could the fat mm from caliper testing actually expand from more water in the cells?

ORIGINAL: danmirage

Meal 2 I would take out the banana...put that in the Pre workout

ok i'll put that pre workout. i guess i'll leave the amount of that and pre workout oatmeal the same unless thats a problem for some reason. should i add enough calories worth of oatmeal to meal 2 on days im not training to make the calories more even?

ORIGINAL: danmirage

I also recommend at least using rice interchanged with oatmeal...you need variety.

1 set to each exercise and add calves, hams, and forearms

Do these in different weeks...milk it!

ok i'll add in long grain brown rice in meal 4 instead of oatmeal. and add those other muscles the next week. 

would it be ok/better to start with 2 sets for bi's and tri's? i figure this way theres more room for progression and also when i add a set to every exercise the next week i dont think it would be wise to have 12 sets for bi's and tri's in a week at my level especially along with 12 sets for chest and back

ORIGINAL: danmirage

Something is not jiving...you are not going to failure...you are going to positive failure...which is the last rep BEFORE failure.
Your reps may have dropped before...that is from your low carbs...not enough energy in the muscles...but now you should see a different response.  Your reps may drop a little...

yea i understand what u mean by positive failure, being able to completely finish that last rep. however i really push myself on that sometimes where i know theres no possible way i could do another. but like u said that big drop in reps could be from the low carbs

my plan for progression is going to go something like this
week 1: 3 sets per muscle (roughly 10 reps to positive failure) (60 sec. rest)
week 2: add 1 set per muscle
week 3: add calves, hams, forearms
week 4: lower rest time
week 5: add reps
week 6: add weight
week 7: superset muscles with no rest between sets and supersets
week 8: split to upper/lower
continue with same basic principles.......

hopefully that will work. do i stay with the same exercises the whole time?

what do u do once u get to a point where ur at a very progressed point. say 4 workouts a week lasting an hour and it would just result in diminishing returns to add more. do u "start over" again at the full body 3 day a week and just not get results the first week or so?   cause what ive done in the past is actually like "reset" exercises and weights every 4 weeks so i could progress with weight during those weeks and i think starting over that often could have been part of why my results were so bad

Generally it shows up as LBM.

ok i'll put that pre workout. i guess i'll leave the amount of that and pre workout oatmeal the same unless thats a problem for some reason. should i add enough calories worth of oatmeal to meal 2 on days im not training to make the calories more even?

I usually have a non training day menu to do that.

would it be ok/better to start with 2 sets for bi's and tri's? i figure this way theres more room for progression and also when i add a set to every exercise the next week i dont think it would be wise to have 12 sets for bi's and tri's in a week at my level especially along with 12 sets for chest and back

12 sets..what are you talking about?  THere should not be 12 sets for any exercise.

hopefully that will work. do i stay with the same exercises the whole time?

Change em as part of a progression.
 

what do u do once u get to a point where ur at a very progressed point. say 4 workouts a week lasting an hour and it would just result in diminishing returns to add more.

Progressions are cyclic.  For example:  Mass phase - strength phase - fat loss phase - repeat
Within each part of each cycle there are progressions that are cycled.
 
There are so many ways to vary the workout, you can use the same weight and sets and go a year with regular gains just by using different intesnity variations.  SO thre is no VERY progressed point...you just go from where you are and keep cycling and progressing.
 
Progression is ideally cyclic not linear.  Results however will tend to be more linear.
 

do u "start over" again at the full body 3 day a week and just not get results the first week or so?

Not ever, never no..you never "just not get results the first week" ... you want to always get results.
So every part of the cycle when you com around...will be new and diferent.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

would it be ok/better to start with 2 sets for bi's and tri's? i figure this way theres more room for progression and also when i add a set to every exercise the next week i dont think it would be wise to have 12 sets for bi's and tri's in a week at my level especially along with 12 sets for chest and back

12 sets..what are you talking about?  THere should not be 12 sets for any exercise.

if i have 3 sets per muscle group in full body workout, 3x per week that would be 9 sets per week. if the next week i increase sets to 4 per muscle group that would be 12 sets

ORIGINAL: danmirage

hopefully that will work. do i stay with the same exercises the whole time?

Change em as part of a progression.

ok, so change the exercise for progression with other factors staying the same during that change im assuming.  how often? about every 4-6 weeks?

ORIGINAL: danmirage

do u "start over" again at the full body 3 day a week and just not get results the first week or so?

Not ever, never no..you never "just not get results the first week" ... you want to always get results.
So every part of the cycle when you com around...will be new and diferent.

ok i guess im just having trouble seeing how u can always progress without too much. like after u divide it into splits, higher weight, lower rests, supersets, etc.... i mean i know there are ways to keep it going, i just dont know where to go after a certain point. i guess i'll deal with that in 12 weeks or so once i get to that point.
depending on fat gain i'll probably end up cutting at that point anyway

Don't need to tally weekly sets.  Just focus on recovery.
 

ok, so change the exercise for progression with other factors staying the same during that change im assuming.  how often? about every 4-6 weeks?

Every time you walk in the gym, something needs to change.  Progression is ongoing, cyclic, and persistent.
 

ok i guess im just having trouble seeing how u can always progress without too much. like after u divide it into splits, higher weight, lower rests, supersets, etc.... i mean i know there are ways to keep it going, i just dont know where to go after a certain point. i guess i'll deal with that in 12 weeks or so once i get to that point.

 
It takes an Ah-ha to understand this.  Once you go a year with a great progression and cycle, you get it.
Progression is ongoing, cyclic, and persistent.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

Don't need to tally weekly sets.  Just focus on recovery.

ok, could i still start with 2 for bi's and tri's so i could have more progression later on adding or would that not be enough? im thinking its good with the chest and back already being worked and at my level. plus i'd be adding sets the next week

ORIGINAL: danmirage

ok, so change the exercise for progression with other factors staying the same during that change im assuming.  how often? about every 4-6 weeks?

Every time you walk in the gym, something needs to change.  Progression is ongoing, cyclic, and persistent.

right, and adding those sets, reps, decreasing rest time, etc...is all part of the ongoing progression from what ive read. so for changing exercises is that just another tool for progression? let me know if im on the right track with this example
week 1: 3 sets of bench press (10 reps)
week 2: 4 sets of bench press (10 reps)
week 3: 4 sets of bench press (12 reps)
week 4: 4 sets DB bench press (12 reps)

week 4 would be progression because it is a new exercise with the same reps, etc... so im changing the stimulus, thus making my body adapt?

Week 3 nothing changed....changing the weight so the rep range is different is a change butr doing everything the same and demonstrating that YES in fact you did adapt to it...is nothing.
 

so for changing exercises is that just another tool for progression?

Yes.
 

could i still start with 2 for bi's and tri's so

Absolutely.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

Week 3 nothing changed....changing the weight so the rep range is different is a change butr doing everything the same and demonstrating that YES in fact you did adapt to it...is nothing.

wait seriously? how is adding reps with the same weight not progression/change??
isnt that the progression u outline for me before with this......

ORIGINAL: danmirage

Changes should be ongoing but gradual.
If you do 3 sets of bench at 220
Each set to positive failure
With reps at 9, 9 , 9
Next time 10, 9, 9 reps
next time 11, 10, 10
Next 12 reps, 11 reps, 9
Next time you may get 12, 12, 8
Next 12, 12, 11

Next time you amy go to 230
10, 9, 9

wait seriously? how is adding reps with the same weight not
progression/change??

 
 
Not really.  It is adaptation. 
You are not adding reps you are doing max reps with all the same parameters..how is that change?
Strength is cyclic and dependant on many factors and so the max reps you can do will vary.
 
Along with that outline I said to change the intensity parameters every session.
(change rest time, superset, acceleration, deceleration, change pace, pyramid, different movements, different weight/rep scheme, pre exhaust....etc)

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hm, this is confusing, i always thought doing more with the same weight would be progression. i mean if u can do 10 reps and no more and then 12 and no more i would consider u to have made progress. i dont see how reps could go up with other variables of intensity going up at the same time.

but u said adding weight with the same/slightly lower reps would be progression correct? if the weeks i add reps i speed up from say a 3121 pace on most exercises to a 3010 pace would that be sufficient? i guess that would only be enough for one of the 3 workouts that week though.....maybe the next i could hold for a count of 2 at the bottom with the same weight and that would be another progression.

i always thought doing more with the same weight would be progression. i mean if u can do 10 reps and no more and then 12 and no more i would consider u to have made progress.

You are not adding reps you are doing max reps with all the same parameters.
 

i dont see how reps could go up with other variables of intensity going up at the same time.

Ahhh..now you are starting to get it!  It is not so easy if you keep changing the parameters...you might be at a set weight for some time before going up...
 
You know that increases in weight are finite...so it is something you want to MILK!
 

but u said adding weight with the same/slightly lower reps would be progression correct?

Not a great progression and you are you are likely still doing max reps with all the same parameters!
 

if the weeks i add reps i speed up from say a 3121 pace on most exercises to a 3010 pace would that be sufficient? i guess that would only be enough for one of the 3 workouts that week though.....maybe the next i could hold for a count of 2 at the bottom with the same weight and that would be another progression.

Those are good manipulations!  Rather, hold for a count of 2 at the TOP - flexed position...maximum tension!

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

i dont see how reps could go up with other variables of intensity going up at the same time.

Ahhh..now you are starting to get it!  It is not so easy if you keep changing the parameters...you might be at a set weight for some time before going up...

You know that increases in weight are finite...so it is something you want to MILK!

but u said adding weight with the same/slightly lower reps would be progression correct?

Not a great progression and you are you are likely still doing max reps with all the same parameters!

wow really? basically my only progression (and really the main progression ive always read/been told are the best are adding weight and reps). i always kind of thought my training was fine and my diet ratio's was the only problem but do u think my results were poor because of lack of good progression too?   (and now they'll get a lot better?)

ORIGINAL: danmirage

if the weeks i add reps i speed up from say a 3121 pace on most exercises to a 3010 pace would that be sufficient? i guess that would only be enough for one of the 3 workouts that week though.....maybe the next i could hold for a count of 2 at the bottom with the same weight and that would be another progression.

Those are good manipulations!  Rather, hold for a count of 2 at the TOP - flexed position...maximum tension!

well when i meant bottom i was referring to something like bench press, but i guess for something else like a curl that would be the top. but thats what u meant right? the point where its hardest to hold, so like the bottom of the mvmt. for lat pull down but top for bicep curl, etc....?  (now that i think about it bench bottom position is the stretching position, not the flexing position but i find thats a lot harder to hold than the top position for that particular exercise)


ive been thinkng about it today and i guess i still am lacking ideas for progression, because now that i think about it i wouldnt have to progress each week i would have to progress each workout. so i mean all of my ideas run out after roughly 3 weeks now, the concept isn't "clicking" with me i guess on where to go after awhile.

maybe to help is there a link to any journal u kept that shows the progressions u made and what u changed to progress for a long period of time?

I don't know if there is ....maybe my journal shows it.
 
I talk about simple things.
 
You will learn more as you go.
 
Read the links to intensity variation...also in this discussion I have outlines about 10 different strategies.

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alright i'll work on it and see how long i can go before running out of idea's, thanks a lot for all this help.

I know the repetitive questions are getting annoying but i want to make sure i have this down right so im not screwing up and not even knoing why

Heres what i have so far

*all sets taken to/near positive failure 9-12 reps, so reps going up whenever they can*

week 1: W/O 1: 3 sets full body, 2 for bi's/tri's (3030 tempo) (60 sec. rest)
            W/O 2: 3 sets full body, 2 for bi's/tri's (3032 hold at contraction)
            W/O 3: 3 sets full body, 2 for bi's/tri's (3210 explosive tempo)
Week 2: W/O 1: 3 sets full body, 2 for bi's/tri's (Add 2 sets calves, hams, forearm)
            W/O 2: 3 sets full body,(add weight)
            W/O 3: 3 sets full body,(50 sec. rest)
week 3: W/O 1: 3 sets full body (40 sec. rest)
            W/O 2: 3 sets full body (30 sec. rest)
            W/O 3: 4 sets full body, 3 sets for calves, hams, forearms, bi's/tri's for the rest of the workouts
Week 4: W/O 1: 4 sets FB (superset back-chest, bi-tri, shoulders-forearms, no rest between sets or supersets)
            W/O 2: 4 sets FB (??)
            W/O 3: 4 sets FB  (??)

at that point im doing 3-4 sets for each muscle group every 2 days (tues, thurs, sat.) with supersets and hardly any rest, im worried going more than that is going to make me sick or something and is more than i need by far at my level. i think that already might be too much

week 5: W/O 1: workout A, tuesday (upper body, 4-5 sets per muscle 3030 tempo, 6-8 reps) <-- is this even progression since sets per period of time is going down and tempo is going back to 3030?
       W/O 2: workout B thursday(lower body 5 sets per muscle group)
        W/O 3: Workout A friday (upper body, 4-5 sets per muscle 3032 tempo)
           W/O 4: Workout B sunday (lower body, 5 sets per muscle 3032 tempo

and then continue with that same basic progression? Again, i dont mean to be so repetitive with questioning, im just trying to be meticulous with this and make the best progress i can

also, i guess since u said i should be going to positive failure, weight should be added whenever 12 reps (or whatever the top of the rep range is) is no longer positive failure right? just like reps are added whenever they can as well?

Do rest between supersets....
 

week 5: W/O 1: workout A, tuesday (upper body, 4-5 sets per muscle 3030 tempo, 6-8 reps) <-- is this even progression since sets per period of time is going down and tempo is going back to 3030?

When you break it up...breaking it up is allowing you more time..so don't add sets...just add weight to shoot for the lower rep range.
 

also, i guess since u said i should be going to positive failure, weight should be added whenever 12 reps (or whatever the top of the rep range is) is no longer positive failure right? just like reps are added whenever they can as well?

Basically, yes...you can add weight, OR you can add intensity in another way!
Weight is only 1 form of intensity...learn to think of it as only one instrument in an orchestra!!
 
The cyclic nature of things can be used in large or small cycles...as I said before.
 
So for instance I can choose a weight that allows M 13-15 reps   W 9-12 rep   F 6-8
Then next week I can also change the movement to have dynamic deceleration
My exercises each day can vary....flat dumbbell bench, incline bench, etc on different days
I may reach the top of the rep range that week...
The following week I can add a pre exhaust set forcing me to fail at lower reps again.
The next week I can pyramid...

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

Do rest between supersets....

oh well usually thats how i would. the only reason i said that was because in ur example before for progression with chest u said going from supersetting it with back to just straight sets of 90sec. in b/w would actually be progression. so since i was doing the opposite and changing from straight sets to supersets i thought that wouldnt be progression unless i took away the rests.

ORIGINAL: danmirage

When you break it up...breaking it up is allowing you more time..so don't add sets...just add weight to shoot for the lower rep range.

also, i guess since u said i should be going to positive failure, weight should be added whenever 12 reps (or whatever the top of the rep range is) is no longer positive failure right? just like reps are added whenever they can as well?

Basically, yes...you can add weight, OR you can add intensity in another way!
Weight is only 1 form of intensity...learn to think of it as only one instrument in an orchestra!!

The cyclic nature of things can be used in large or small cycles...as I said before.

So for instance I can choose a weight that allows M 13-15 reps   W 9-12 rep   F 6-8
Then next week I can also change the movement to have dynamic deceleration
My exercises each day can vary....flat dumbbell bench, incline bench, etc on different days
I may reach the top of the rep range that week...
The following week I can add a pre exhaust set forcing me to fail at lower reps again.
The next week I can pyramid...

ooh, i think i may be starting to get it.   i thought that going from, for example,  6-8 reps on monday to 10 reps on wednesday, to 12 reps on friday (with no other factor except i guess weight changed) couldnt be progress but that the reverse could. basically cause the weights are getting lighter in the first example.

but really ur saying (show by the fact the there would still only be 4 sets in the AB split which definately seems less to me, unless going to the 6-8 range is the progress?) that as long as im keeping the intensity high (positive failure)  these dynamic changes from rests to sets to tempo, etc.... are forms of progress. whether it be decreasing rest to increase intensity (but reps prob. dropping) or increasing rest to increase the weight used?
is that the right idea? im not sure b/c i would think increasing rep time and splitting to the AB split would make it easier (and physically it would) and also ur example actually goes from higher to lower reps through the week.
but maybe thats the part of the concept that i wasn't getting, that its the changes that are progress?

EDIT: im just realizing what my problem is. it's not that i dont know how to change things up enough, its that i don't know what would be progress and what wouldn't be. like clearly adding a set would be progress. but then other things i dont know. i just recently found out going faster on the concentric portion (although easier) is progress. and that splitting up the routine (although easier) is progress, and apparently going from straight sets to supersets and vise-versa is progress. and then after i finally progress to push/pull/legs where do i go? thats what my problem is/has been. determining what is progress and what isn't. increasing rest to add weight or decreasing to add 'intensity' but decreasing reps, etc.....

Superset (Chest - no rest - back) - Rest between supersets
Repeat
 
Progress is any stimulus that the body has to adapt to.
 
If you work out in the 6-8 rep range at a 3-3-3-3 pace
And at the end of a week you are at 8 reps
Then you change to pyramiding 12-10-8
Then deceleration in the 10 rep range
Then do peak contraction in the 12 rep range
then work out in the 6-8 rep range
Then do explosive eccentric in the 9-12 range
Then finish with a drop set
Then do slow eccentric
Then shorten the rests
then work out in the 6-8 rep range
....
 
(The thing that does not really matter is that you will have to adjust the weight based on strength and rep range goal)
 
Adding sets is NOT a desireable progression.
It it the MOST undesireable progression.
You should not have to resort to it.
It is adding volume and that is not a desireable progression in intensity (with a few exceptions such as when you do power sets in the 2-3 rep range...or a few rare other instances.)
 
When you go to AB you have more time to play with...so use it to add rest and train heavier at first.  Then start to crank down on the intensity again.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage
Progress is any stimulus that the body has to adapt to.
If you work out in the 6-8 rep range at a 3-3-3-3 pace
And at the end of a week you are at 8 reps
Then you change to pyramiding 12-10-8
Then deceleration in the 10 rep range
Then do peak contraction in the 12 rep range
then work out in the 6-8 rep range
Then do explosive eccentric in the 9-12 range<---explosive eccentric?
Then finish with a drop set
Then do slow eccentric
Then shorten the rests
then work out in the 6-8 rep range
....
(The thing that does not really matter is that you will have to adjust the weight based on strength and rep range goal)
Adding sets is NOT a desireable progression.
It it the MOST undesireable progression.
You should not have to resort to it.
It is adding volume and that is not a desireable progression in intensity (with a few exceptions such as when you do power sets in the 2-3 rep range...or a few rare other instances.)

When you go to AB you have more time to play with...so use it to add rest and train heavier at first.  Then start to crank down on the intensity again.

ah ok, that clears up a lot of my confusion. especially "(The thing that does not really matter is that you will have to adjust the weight based on strength and rep range goal)". i guess ive just never viewed something as progression before if the weight was going down.

last thing and then i think im set.

in ur examples of what to do for progression, would those be weekly changes or changes each workout? i know progress should be made each workout but i would think those examples were for weekly changes and then within the week (those 3 workouts) u try to increase reps/weight/tempo etc.... to be in the desired range.
like for example week 1: switch to adding a drop set at the end. but within the week u maybe get 1 more rep in the 2nd workout and go with an explosive instead of slow tempo in the 3rd workout. then week 2: next form of progression, etc...?

and basically the more dynamic the better (within reason)?


(as a side note i have begun the workouts this week, tomorow will be my 2nd workout and i will be going from a 3030 tempo to a 3230, using deceleration like u talked about, holding 2 seconds after the negative portion of the lift, and then the next workout i will go 3210 using the deceleration still and an explosive concentric)

Within reason, yes...but you don't want to use the same intensity method every day in some cases...so sometimes you change every training day...
 
Negative failure would be an example to rotate around carefully.
 
You must pause after deceleration for the best effect..otherwise the concentric is driven by the stretch reflex!

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

You must pause after deceleration for the best effect..otherwise the concentric is driven by the stretch reflex!

ok thanks, im about to go workout now so ill be pausing for a 2 second hold/tensing the muscle after the eccentric then going to the concentric portion.

ORIGINAL: danmirage

5+12+5 minutes is too long!
Try this progression:
http://www.musclemedia.com/training/hiit_table.asp
Start at week 1!!!!  Only 4 minutes.
That way you are creating a new progression as well as avoiding catabolism in the beginning.

just to clarify, u mean for me to follow that program the way its outlined right? even with the progression?   im just clarifying because u said 5+12+5 is too long, yet by week 8 of that program i'd be at 5+15+5 so i wasn't sure. plus i would be progressing with cardio during bulking which i haven't heard of before.