Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II

Yeh, I know what catabolism is... Its the destructive phase of metabolism.  Yet, the guy from the podcast said there were specific foods thats increased the rate of catabolism and I was wondering what these were.  Processed foods?  Sugars?  

Great, just wanted to be sure we were on the same page.
 
Yes, you have the right idea. 
Dan often discusses things in terms of being anti-anabolic.
Highly processed foods would certainly be an example.
 
In my notes on the recording, I note a few important points:
High saturated fat intake, lack of hydration, meal timing, proper nutrient balance, high fructose intake, modulating the diet...
 

Dan discusses his top anti-anabolic list elsewhere.:
Over cooking food
Eating too fast
Missing Meals
Over Eating
Not drinking enough water
Not getting ENOUGH protein
Not getting ENOUGH calories
Drinking Alcohol
Too much caffeine
Taking Saw Palmetto when you are not at risk of BPH
Training TOO LITTLE! (1x per bodypart per week does not take advantage of more frequent hormonal "work - recovery" cycles)
Doing low intensity cardio
Never lifting Heavy

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Hmm, eating too fast... Thats interesting because I tend to eat fast since I have to mow down food during passing times at school ( 6 minutes ), so this may be causing an anabolic effect?  Also, maybe I overeat since 5000 calories a lot, but its the only amount I can eat now to gain any lbs on the scale.  Im up to 192 now, at a lower BF % than when I first hit 200 6-8 months ago so thats good I suppose.

Don't be too worried.  The goal is to get as close to perfect as we can.  Nobody is perfect, we try to do our best. 
 
The essentials are more important than the refinements. 
The refinements give you small improvements if you have the essentials in place.
 
The more anit-anabolic things you avoid, the better.  I have to eat meals in passing times between classes as well. 
 
Just put your mind in a calm, pleasant place while throwing down that MRP as you jog accross campus.

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im bulking right now, at went from 133-134 lbs to 144 lbs in a bit over a month, i know ive gained lean mass as bicep got slightly bigger, and lifts are more, but ive gained some fat, as abs are not as defined. My bodyfat is 13-16, i dont konw how to use my calipers :P but yea i want to lose fat for summer.... i know that thats bad as im not heavy enough to cut... but ive gotten so much fat on my face this bulk....

my diet is like this
8:45shake in morning (fruit, whey, flax oil)
12:45lunch (3 whole grain bread with can of tuna)
4:15 chicken breast or meat 4-5 oz (enough to match 35 grams of protein) with oatmeal, peanut butter, vegetable
6:15 preworkout - oatmeal, peanut butter, deli meat, some cheese
7:45post workout - shake (1.5 scoops whey, half a banana, icecream)
8:45-9(35 grams of protein from meat,sweet potato, peanut butter, vegetable
before bed - cottage cheese, glass of skimmed milk

ratios are about 33/33/33 eating 2500-2600 calories gaining fine

do you suggest for losing fat for summer to do more cardio, and go at maintenance calories or to cut

Well, that diet is not exactly the "optimal" diet for bulking so in a small way you set yourself up for a challenge.
 
Lets look at those meals...instead of stressing about cardio and all the rest at first.
 
Start by simply cleaning up the diet.
 
8:45shake in morning (fruit, whey, flax oil)
Start with a whole food protein!  Better would be to drop the fruit and have a veggie
Scrambled eggs with mushroom, onion, garlic, spinach and some oven roasted potato.
12:45lunch (3 whole grain bread with can of tuna)
Replace bread with rice, quinoa, or other whole food..add a vegetable!
4:15 chicken breast or meat 4-5 oz (enough to match 35 grams of protein) with oatmeal, peanut butter, vegetable
OK
6:15 preworkout - oatmeal, peanut butter, deli meat, some cheese
Not great pre workout unless it is over 45 minutes, In which case get some veggies in there.
7:45post workout - shake (1.5 scoops whey, half a banana, icecream)
No ice cream. Drop the banana.
8:45-9(35 grams of protein from meat,sweet potato, peanut butter, vegetable
ok
before bed - cottage cheese, glass of skimmed milk
A complete whole food meal here (chicken, baked potato, broccoli) not within 90 minutes of bed.
 
A better source of fat would be ideal. 
Whole unroasted nuts (almonds, walnuts...) instead of roasted peanuts. 
Is that peanut butter 100% peanuts or is there ANYTHING else in it. 
If so, at least change it to a pure ground nut butter.
 
Consider a switch to fish oil from flax oil.

After you clean up the diet you should see the pudge go down!!
 
Next, look at the losing fat thread for some ideas on gradual changes to keep the pace of fat loss going.
Add alterations slowly to milk each one...don't try to do everything at once.
They body does not play that way!
 
There is a link to a page with caliper instructions on it as well so you can use the calipers to help you track changes and stay on top!

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Thanx a lot for takin ur time and helping me with this...

another thing is training, the only part i feel a little sore the day after are chest and sometimes legs....

the morning i used to eat eggs, although over here every grocery store ive been to - liquid egg whites are 500 ml for $3-4,

i thought before bed we need casien protein or something which will build muscle over night...

and also i noticed good gains having ice cream postworkout, read about it in book called RAW MUSCLE, if you suggest dropping the banana and ice cream post workout what do i eat..... just whey?!, and i forgot to add that i have the whey with soy milk

what should i add to preworkout

and also i noticed good gains having ice cream postworkout, read about it in book called RAW MUSCLE, if you suggest dropping the banana and ice cream post workout what do i eat..... just whey?!, and i forgot to add that i have the whey with soy milk

what should i add to preworkout

 
Whey with the soy is fine...but check that the soy has LOW sugar.  Some are made with LOTS of sugar.
 
Pre and post workout are discussed in the losing fat thread. 
Yes, the whey 30 minutes pre-workout is fine if you at 60-90 minutes ago.
 
Let us both get on the same page.
 
You said:

do you suggest for do you suggest for losing fat for summer to do more cardio, and go at maintenance calories or to cut to do more cardio, and go at maintenance calories or to cut

 
Bread and ice cream are not great but ok for bulking, but you did not ask about bulking.  You asked about losing fat for summer.
 
This answer is about getting lean. 
You will still gain muscle. 
 
Post workout, if you want to gain muscle but get leaner, simply drop the fast insulin boosters for a while.
 
When you like the body you get, slowly add in the banana.  The ice cream is for over the top insulin response. 
Yes, that makes you gain weight faster...some of which is muscle some is likely to be fat. 
Also you will retain more water, which you described.
 
Since you are NOT tracking your caliper measures week to week, you have no idea what is happening. 
Read my gaining mass post.  Pay attention to the part about keeping the momentum of gains.
Tracking and making adjustment is essential.
 

another thing is training, the only part i feel a little sore the day after are chest and sometimes legs....

Post exercise soreness means NOTHING in relation to growth! 
It is not an idicator of the quality and response to your workout.
Go it?  Good.  It just indicates your level of fitness in relation to removal of waste byproducts that build up.
 

i thought before bed we need casien protein or something which will build muscle over night...

You need lots of things.  Casien is not a nutrient balanced offering.  The veggies help keep your body alkaline and thus pro-anabolic, they also provide many of the precursors needed to actually have the growth you want.  The carbs feed your body and brain and help spare protein, the fats nourish the body and provide hormone precursers so you CAN build.  The protein is the stuff of building blocks and neurotransmitters and many other things.
 
You need more than casein.  It is a simplistic and flawed theory.  It functions, but not efficiently.  I won't go into it now.

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Hey dan i have a few questions
1. why did u suggest taking the banana out? just to get lean? because i thought u reccomended to always having something like a banana PWO

2. Why do u suggest things like potatoes for the last meal? wouldnt starchy carbs (especially of white potatoes) be bad so close to when ur going to sleep?

3. I read that u said one should be gaining .5lb-2lb. of muscle while losing .3-.5lb. of fat a week. do u really think most can achieve this? ive always been under the impression that its nearly impossible to do both

4. why do u suggest doing no cardio while bulking? i would think on days ur not working out it would help to keep fat down.

those are my main questions, but lastly...ive been trying to clean bulk and i want to keep fat to a minimum.  this is my diet, is there anything u would change to make it optimal for gaining LBM while keeping fat down and maybe even losing some? thanks


Pre workout
-Protein powder, 1 scoops: 90 calories, 17g protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
-oatmeal, 1/3 cup: 100 calories, 3.3g protein, 18g carbs, 1.67g fat
SUBTOTALS: 190 calories, 20.3 protein, 20g carbs, 3.17g fat

Pre run
-Protein powder, 1 scoops: 90 calories, 17g protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
SUBTOTALS: 90 calories, 17 protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat

Meal 1
-Oatmeal, 1.25 cups: 375 calories, 12.5g protein, 67.5g carbs, 6.25g fat
-2.2oz Banana: 55 calories, .6g protein, 13.75 g carbs, 0.25g fat 
-Protein powder, 1.5 scoops: 135 calories, 25.5g protein, 3g carbs, 2.25g fat
-2 oz. Chicken breast: 67 calories, 14g protein, 0 carbs, 0 fat
SUBTOTALS: 632 calories, 52.6g protein, 84.25carbs, 8.75g fat

Meal 1 (non-workout days)
-Oatmeal, 1.25 cup: 375 calories, 12.5g protein, 67.5g carbs, 6.25g fat
-2/3 tbsp, natural PB: 67 calories, 3g protein, 2g carbs, 5.33g fat
-Protein powder, 1 scoops: 90 calories, 17g protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
-3 oz. Chicken breast: 100 calories, 21g protein, 0 carbs, 0 fat
SUBTOTALS: 632 calories, 53.5g protein, 71.5g carbs, 13.08g fat
                     
-1 omega 3 pill: 10 calories, 0g protein, 0g carbs, 1g fat
 
Meal 2
-Protein powder, ½ scoop: 45 calories, 8.5g protein, 1g carbs, .75g fat
-Cottage cheese, 3/4 cup: 150 calories, 22.5g protein, 9g carbs, 2.25g fat
-oatmeal, 1/2 cup: 150 calories, 5g protein, 27g carbs, 2.5g fat
-Peanuts, 1/2 oz: 80 calories, 3.5g protein, 3g carbs, 7g fat
-2 egg whites: 34 calories, 7.2g protein, 0.4g carbs, 0.2g fat
-2.2oz Banana: 55 calories, .6g protein, 13.75 g carbs, 0.25g fat 
SUBTOTALS: 514 calories, 47.3g protein, 54.15g carbs, 13g fat

Meal 3
-Whole wheat bread, 2 pieces: 200 calories, 8g protein, 36g carbs, 3g fat
-Chicken breast, 6 oz: 200 calories, 42g protein, 0 carbs, 0 fat
-Miracle whip, 1 tbsp: 20 calories, 0g protein, 1g carbs, 1.5g fat
-sting cheese, 1 pieces: 70 calories, 8g protein, 1g carbs, 4g fat
SUBTOTALS: 490 calories, 57.9g protein, 38g carbs, 8.5g fat


Meal 4       
-1 can tuna: 125 calories, 27.5g protein, 1g carbs, 2.5g fat
-2 tsp. Olive oil: 80 calories, 0g protein, 0g carbs, 9.33g fat
-1/3 cup Tomato sauce: 20 calories, 0g protein, 5.33g carbs, 0g fat
-1.25oz. Fat free cheese: 56.25 calories, 11.25g protein, 2.5g carbs, 0g fat
-7.5oz. Broccoli: 75 calories, 6g protein, 14g carbs, .8g fat
-3oz. Salmon: 125 calories, 16.4g protein, 0g carbs, 6.8g fat
SUBTOTALS: 481.25 Calories, 62.15g protein, 22.83g carbs, 19.43g fat

Meal 5
- about 6 egg whites / or substitute, 3/4 cup: 90 calories, 18g protein, 3g carbs, 0g fat
-2 whole egg: 140 calories, 12g protein, 2g carbs, 9g fat
-1 egg whites: 17 calories, 3.6g protein, 0.2g carbs, 0.1g fat
-1 can tuna: 125 calories, 27.5g protein, 1g carbs, 2.5g fat
-Peas, 3oz.: 67.5 calories, 4.5g protein, 12g carbs, .3g fat
SUBTOTALS: 439.5 calories, 65.6g protein, 18.2g carbs, 14.6g fat
 
Meal 6 
-Cottage cheese, 1 cup: 200 calories, 30g protein, 12g carbs, 3g fat
-1 tbsp, natural PB: 100 calories, 4.5g protein, 3g carbs, 8g fat
-1 whole egg: 70calories, 6g protein, 1g carbs, 4.5g fat
SUBTOTALS: 370 calories, 40.5g protein, 16g carbs , 15.5g fat
                                      
TOTALS: 3076.75 calories, 344.15g protein, 226.43g carbs, 85.03g fat
             45.17% protein   29.72% carbs   25.11% fat

1. why did u suggest taking the banana out? just to get lean? because i thought u reccomended to always having something like a banana PWO

When we are talking about purely LOSING FAT...fruit is not an ideal food.

2. Why do u suggest things like potatoes for the last meal? wouldnt starchy carbs (especially of white potatoes) be bad so close to when ur going to sleep?

No.  A balanced meal of WHOLE foods digests slowly and provides nutrients to the body over hours.  You need carbs for the brain and for various processes.  If you don't eat them, then you produce hormones that convert proteins into them.  Not ideal.

3. I read that u said one should be gaining .5lb-2lb. of muscle while losing .3-.5lb. of fat a week. do u really think most can achieve this? ive always been under the impression that its nearly impossible to do both

Yes.  I have seen it (100s of people doing it at once), done it myself, trained others and monitored them doing it...
If you are at a lower BF% then the fat loss number that is feasable gets to be lower and lower.

4. why do u suggest doing no cardio while bulking? i would think on days ur not working out it would help to keep fat down.

If you strive for maximal gains, then you want certain hormonal patterns.  Cardio encourages certain hormones....not optimal for maximum muscle gains.  It also means you have to eat more to support the added caloric expenditure.
 
You can still gain muscle with cardio.  No problem.  Some people gain better with some cardio.

...ive been trying to clean bulk and i want to keep fat to a minimum. 

You know that by favoring a hormonal state that breaks down protein instead of one that builds muscle is not optimal so no need to go on about the ratio...
 
Oatmeal is not a great PWO carb.  Too much fiber for 30 minutes out. 
Where is your post workout? Get protein w/in 30 minutes!
Try to stick with whole food sources and drop as much of the powder protein as you can.
Replace fruits with veggies anywhere and everywhere in meals that you can.
Have a fibrous veggie (not including peas, corn, tomato, carrot) with every meal.
Replace bread with a real food. (rice, quinoa, amaranth, sweet potato, peas, corn, tomato,...)
Have a carb as above with every meal.
 
The goal is to control your hormones.

Pre workout
-Protein powder, 1 scoops: 90 calories, 17g protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
-oatmeal, 1/3 cup: 100 calories, 3.3g protein, 18g carbs, 1.67g fat
SUBTOTALS: 190 calories, 20.3 protein, 20g carbs, 3.17g fat

Pre run
-Protein powder, 1 scoops: 90 calories, 17g protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
SUBTOTALS: 90 calories, 17 protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat

Meal 1
-Oatmeal, 1.25 cups: 375 calories, 12.5g protein, 67.5g carbs, 6.25g fat
-2.2oz Banana: 55 calories, .6g protein, 13.75 g carbs, 0.25g fat 
-Protein powder, 1.5 scoops: 135 calories, 25.5g protein, 3g carbs, 2.25g fat
-2 oz. Chicken breast: 67 calories, 14g protein, 0 carbs, 0 fat
SUBTOTALS: 632 calories, 52.6g protein, 84.25carbs, 8.75g fat

Meal 1 (non-workout days)
-Oatmeal, 1.25 cup: 375 calories, 12.5g protein, 67.5g carbs, 6.25g fat
-2/3 tbsp, natural PB: 67 calories, 3g protein, 2g carbs, 5.33g fat
-Protein powder, 1 scoops: 90 calories, 17g protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
-3 oz. Chicken breast: 100 calories, 21g protein, 0 carbs, 0 fat
SUBTOTALS: 632 calories, 53.5g protein, 71.5g carbs, 13.08g fat
                    
-1 omega 3 pill: 10 calories, 0g protein, 0g carbs, 1g fat

Meal 2
-Protein powder, ½ scoop: 45 calories, 8.5g protein, 1g carbs, .75g fat
-Cottage cheese, 3/4 cup: 150 calories, 22.5g protein, 9g carbs, 2.25g fat
-oatmeal, 1/2 cup: 150 calories, 5g protein, 27g carbs, 2.5g fat
-Peanuts, 1/2 oz: 80 calories, 3.5g protein, 3g carbs, 7g fat
-2 egg whites: 34 calories, 7.2g protein, 0.4g carbs, 0.2g fat
-2.2oz Banana: 55 calories, .6g protein, 13.75 g carbs, 0.25g fat 
SUBTOTALS: 514 calories, 47.3g protein, 54.15g carbs, 13g fat

Meal 3
-Whole wheat bread, 2 pieces: 200 calories, 8g protein, 36g carbs, 3g fat
-Chicken breast, 6 oz: 200 calories, 42g protein, 0 carbs, 0 fat
-Miracle whip, 1 tbsp: 20 calories, 0g protein, 1g carbs, 1.5g fat
-sting cheese, 1 pieces: 70 calories, 8g protein, 1g carbs, 4g fat
SUBTOTALS: 490 calories, 57.9g protein, 38g carbs, 8.5g fat


Meal 4       
-1 can tuna: 125 calories, 27.5g protein, 1g carbs, 2.5g fat
-2 tsp. Olive oil: 80 calories, 0g protein, 0g carbs, 9.33g fat
-1/3 cup Tomato sauce: 20 calories, 0g protein, 5.33g carbs, 0g fat
-1.25oz. Fat free cheese: 56.25 calories, 11.25g protein, 2.5g carbs, 0g fat
-7.5oz. Broccoli: 75 calories, 6g protein, 14g carbs, .8g fat
-3oz. Salmon: 125 calories, 16.4g protein, 0g carbs, 6.8g fat
SUBTOTALS: 481.25 Calories, 62.15g protein, 22.83g carbs, 19.43g fat

Meal 5
- about 6 egg whites / or substitute, 3/4 cup: 90 calories, 18g protein, 3g carbs, 0g fat
-2 whole egg: 140 calories, 12g protein, 2g carbs, 9g fat
-1 egg whites: 17 calories, 3.6g protein, 0.2g carbs, 0.1g fat
-1 can tuna: 125 calories, 27.5g protein, 1g carbs, 2.5g fat
-Peas, 3oz.: 67.5 calories, 4.5g protein, 12g carbs, .3g fat
SUBTOTALS: 439.5 calories, 65.6g protein, 18.2g carbs, 14.6g fat

Meal 6 
-Cottage cheese, 1 cup: 200 calories, 30g protein, 12g carbs, 3g fat
-1 tbsp, natural PB: 100 calories, 4.5g protein, 3g carbs, 8g fat
-1 whole egg: 70calories, 6g protein, 1g carbs, 4.5g fat
SUBTOTALS: 370 calories, 40.5g protein, 16g carbs , 15.5g fat
                                    
TOTALS: 3076.75 calories, 344.15g protein, 226.43g carbs, 85.03g fat
            45.17% protein   29.72% carbs   25.11% fat

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ORIGINAL: danmirage
You know that by favoring a hormonal state that breaks down protein instead of one that builds muscle is not optimal so no need to go on about the ratio...

Oatmeal is not a great PWO carb.  Too much fiber for 30 minutes out.
what would u suggest then. im cautious of something thats very high GI because of fat gain so i thought oatmeal would be a good choice.

Where is your post workout? Get protein w/in 30 minutes!
Try to stick with whole food sources and drop as much of the powder protein as you can.
the meal 1 that doesn't say (on days i dont workout) is my PWO meal. i have that about 20min. after working out
Replace fruits with veggies anywhere and everywhere in meals that you can.
well the only time i have fruit is in meal 2 and post workout. so should i take both out? and also meal 2 is a shake i have to drink in about 10 seconds lol so i can add vegetables, should i add more oatmeal to replace the banana?
Have a fibrous veggie (not including peas, corn, tomato, carrot) with every meal.
ok i can for every meal except 2 and 3.
Replace bread with a real food. (rice, quinoa, amaranth, sweet potato, peas, corn, tomato,...)
thats my sandwhich at school so its my pretty much my only choice.
Have a carb as above with every meal.
well as i said my results have been pretty weird so im thinking of just redoing my whole diet more like what u said. somehow i lost weight at 2900 calories yet ive been gaining way too fast at 3100 calories, same exercise. any explanation?
The goal is to control your hormones.

thanks

You train first thing in the morning...ah, I see
Perhaps put the fruit in the Pre-WO meal so that there is a mix with the oats...and get it all as close to 45 minutes out as you can.
 
For the shake, if you are in a rush...if you can blend in a vegetable, that is perfect. 
If not...at least you are getting good nutrition.
 
Remember, nobody does this perfect, we just get as close to optimal as we will allow ourselves.
 
Sorry, why can you NOT get a vegetable for meal 2 or 3?
Just blend it (#2) and pack it #3...
 
If you are stuck on the bread sandwhich (you seem to feel you are limited to this...)..then put spinach leaves in it.
 
AS for the weight gain...I explained the way this would effect you before.
Plus, The body is not fond of being "starved" for a long time and Very Low Carb Diets make it feel starved when you are active like a bodybuilder/athlete.  Stay on one long enough and "mechanisms" kick in to compensate.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

You train first thing in the morning...ah, I see
Perhaps put the fruit in the Pre-WO meal so that there is a mix with the oats...and get it all as close to 45 minutes out as you can.

wait so now fruit is okay even though im trying to keep fat down? also i think i remember u saying fructose wouldn't be optimal pre workout, and what is the benefit of it with the oats?

ORIGINAL: danmirage

For the shake, if you are in a rush...if you can blend in a vegetable, that is perfect. 
If not...at least you are getting good nutrition.

Remember, nobody does this perfect, we just get as close to optimal as we will allow ourselves.

Sorry, why can you NOT get a vegetable for meal 2 or 3?
Just blend it (#2) and pack it #3...

If you are stuck on the bread sandwhich (you seem to feel you are limited to this...)..then put spinach leaves in it.

well i guess i can blend some vegetables into meal 2, i never really understood why it was that essential to make sure there was a fibrous veggie in every meal as opposed to just getting enough throughout the day. what would blend well? i would use pea's but those are apparently a starchy carb.

ORIGINAL: danmirage
AS for the weight gain...I explained the way this would effect you before.
Plus, The body is not fond of being "starved" for a long time and Very Low Carb Diets make it feel starved when you are active like a bodybuilder/athlete.  Stay on one long enough and "mechanisms" kick in to compensate.

i thought that u said fat storage wasn't one of those "mechanisms", i guess something that causes fat storage is? i eat 30% carbs which is pretty low but i never thought of that as a "very low carb" diet. i guess i'll have to get that in order, idk why its so sporadic though.

one thing i dont get about the carbs though. i notice that even in ur "losing fat" section u say to have a minimum of 45% carbs with complex carbs in every meal. why is it then that all bodybuilders both pro/amateur and steroid users/natural use some method of low carbs to lower bf%? Whether its keto or very high protein or something else, i have yet to see a bodybuilders competition diet have more than around 35% carbs at the most, sometimes its as low as 5%.

wait so now fruit is okay even...

You are training in a fasted state....a ercipe for muscle breakdown.
 
Veggies do too much to list right now.
 
They lower acid..acid is antianabolic, they modulate the supply of nutrients to the body...etc
 
Blend?  Most anything works..what will go with your shake?  Zuccini?  Yellow peppers?  Spinach?
 

i thought that u said fat storage wasn't one of those "mechanisms

Long term Very low carb ~ stress = cortisol = fat storage and fat sparing..plus muscle breakdown.
 

one thing i dont get about the carbs though. i notice that even in ur "losing fat" section u say to have a minimum of 45% carbs with complex carbs in every meal. why is it then that all bodybuilders both pro/amateur and steroid users/natural use some method of low carbs to lower bf%? Whether its keto or very high protein or something else, i have yet to see a bodybuilders competition diet have more than around 35% carbs at the most, sometimes its as low as 5%.

 
You are mixing ideas.
 
First one has to establish a healthy baseline.
Next one needs to GAIN muscle at baseline
Next one needs to lose fat at baseline
Next one milks the fat loss for all it is worth at baseline
Next one drops cals a bit, but not protein...thus the strange ratios.
 
Those are the last few weeks out snapshot diets.
Not the ongoing diet.
 

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

wait so now fruit is okay even...

You are training in a fasted state....a ercipe for muscle breakdown.

so fruit pre workout wouldnt add fat, ok. but why is it training in a fasted state if im having whey and oatmeal pre workout? not digested quickly enough?

also what would be ideal post workout if im trying to minimize fat gain? (since oatmeal has too much fiber and u said fruit wouldnt be the best choice for staying lean)

also on a diffent note, do u know how i put ur podcast seminars on my ipod? i started listening to #23 and i really like it so far so i would like to get it on my ipod but im not sure how

im confused, in this dan gastelu or dan whittaker? and are both experts? who are each?

ok. but why is it training in a fasted state if im having whey and oatmeal pre workout? not digested quickly enough?

You don't think those things go straight out to the muscles do you.  No.  The muscle stores of glycogen on waking are low.  Fruit with the rest of the meal pre workout will add fiber, and more readily used sugar.
 
 

also what would be ideal post workout if im trying to minimize fat gain? (since oatmeal has too much fiber and u said fruit wouldnt be the best choice for staying lean)

Protein 30 minutes out.
A complete balanced meal about an hour later.
 

do u know how i put ur podcast seminars on my ipod?

These audio files are mp3. 
Download them first, then sync to your player.
 
I am NOT Dan Gastelu.  He is a science Ph.D., professor of nutrition science, long time trainer, researcher, and author. 
He is also a professional friend.
 
I (Daniel Whittaker) am a long time (over two decades) fitness trainer, wellness consultant, nutrition resercher, and bodybuilder.  Currently involved in an intensive degree program in exercise science and involved in sports performance and human performance enhancement research.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

ok. but why is it training in a fasted state if im having whey and oatmeal pre workout? not digested quickly enough?

You don't think those things go straight out to the muscles do you.  No.  The muscle stores of glycogen on waking are low.  Fruit with the rest of the meal pre workout will add fiber, and more readily used sugar.

well oatmeal has a lot of fiber too, so basically the fruits main benefit is more readily used sugar? ok, i'll have that pre workout. i have 1 scoop of whey pre workout. how much oatmeal and fruit (what kind if that matters) would be good?

ORIGINAL: danmirage

also what would be ideal post workout if im trying to minimize fat gain? (since oatmeal has too much fiber and u said fruit wouldnt be the best choice for staying lean)

Protein 30 minutes out.
A complete balanced meal about an hour later.

alright i'll work on that. the thing is i basically get home from working out, eat my full first meal and then go to school so idk how im gonna work that out, unless i end up squeezing my 6 real meals closer together and have 3 at school

ORIGINAL: danmirage

I am NOT Dan Gastelu.  He is a science Ph.D., professor of nutrition science, long time trainer, researcher, and author. 
He is also a professional friend.

I (Daniel Whittaker) am a long time (over two decades) fitness trainer, wellness consultant, nutrition resercher, and bodybuilder.  Currently involved in an intensive degree program in exercise science and involved in sports performance and human performance enhancement research.

lol i always thought it was the same person cause i always just thought of "Dan". also the pics u posted look similar to the guy on the site of the podcasts

do u agree with everything he says?
because so far i've listed to bulking pt1 and half of bulking pt2 and really like it since i can get it on my ipod. my main questions about it so far are
1. he says a fast concentric movement for reps right?
2. this was confusing to me, he says that what will get u the most mass is working with the compound exercises in the 4-6 rep range to hit the fast twitch glycolytic (sp?) fibers and have pretty long rest, as much as 3 min. yet he says not to follow a powerlifter type routine. isn't that close to a powerlifting style of training? and i noticed u (as most do) suggest 9-12 reps for mass. he does include those for the fast twitch oxidative glycolytic fibers however he mainly focuses on the 4-6 rep ranges for compound mvmts.

he also seems to have a lot of faith in supplements and even protein bars, i always figured those were only like 1% of the big picture with results.

Fruit, like vegetables, brings more than fiber to the picture...
Oatmeal is not a replacement for vegetables/fruits just because it has fiber.
Not all fiber is the same.
 
Dont you have a Post WO now?  Then have another meal later (the shake?)
 
The pre workout is really your first meal and so you have to play with what works to give you energy but not interfere with your training.
 
Acceleration (fast concentric) is ONE way to add intensity for growth.  Alternating that with deceleration (fast eccentric with deceleration and a pause at the bottom)...but if you are accustomed to acceleration (as most people are), moving in a controlled fashion is another tweak.
 
As for agreeing with Dan all the time...This series of lectures he is giving is, in fact a SERIES..so unless you heard them all, you mighht take parts out of context.  Such as bars...he clearly places nutrition at the FRONT of any program.  Later he since he talked about the nutrition, he will just talk about the supplements that are appropriate in each area unless there is a change/clarification...
 
However, I understand what he is saying at a deeper level than many listeners.  When he says that Type II glycolytic are most efficiently hit with heavy movements in the 4-6 range...but not to train like a powerlifter...I understand that.  He places that in context with also not neglecting Type II A/B and Type I.
 
In my gaining mass thread I post a section where I present a sample of the overabundance of research on all this.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

As for agreeing with Dan all the time...This series of lectures he is giving is, in fact a SERIES..so unless you heard them all, you mighht take parts out of context.  Such as bars...he clearly places nutrition at the FRONT of any program.  Later he since he talked about the nutrition, he will just talk about the supplements that are appropriate in each area unless there is a change/clarification...

However, I understand what he is saying at a deeper level than many listeners.  When he says that Type II glycolytic are most efficiently hit with heavy movements in the 4-6 range...but not to train like a powerlifter...I understand that.  He places that in context with also not neglecting Type II A/B and Type I.

In my gaining mass thread I post a section where I present a sample of the overabundance of research on all this.

yea he does place some focus on not neglecting the other 2 types however he says the majority of ur muscle gains and strength will come from the 4-6 rep range.  do u agree with that?  and which part of the gaining mass thread are u referring to?


i also noticed he reccomends 5 meals a day rather than 6 to keep insulin levels down and fat down, but isnt the point of 6 meals to keep it so insulin never gets too high from one meal and will keep ur metabolism raised?

yea he does place some focus on not neglecting the other 2 types however he says the majority of ur muscle gains and strength will come from the 4-6 rep range.  do u agree with that?

We know that training for strength is the way to get stronger, so that holds.
 
However if you look at the studies, you see that the body is not necessarily responding to low rep high weights with optimal growth.

and which part of the gaining mass thread are u referring to?

Starting at post #8 in the Gaining mass thread...
 

i also noticed he reccomends 5 meals a day rather than 6 to keep insulin levels down and fat down, but isnt the point of 6 meals to keep it so insulin never gets too high from one meal and will keep ur metabolism raised?

It is an intersting balancing act.
THe thermic effect of food is a plus.  More calories burned.
THe effect of optimization of digestion and faster nutrient processing means you can grow faster.
The Insulin levels are controlled by the CONTENT of the meals (why I advocate for veggies every meals)
THere is more than one way to get lean and the most successful while maintaining muscle is more frequent balanced meals.
Loads of research has been done on this as well.  So far, no other eating method has had as much success.
There are tweeks to it, such as caloric modulation through the week, etc...but you are still eating every 3-4 hours.
Naturally, 5 meals or six meals depends on the length of your day and the time between meals. 
Also, if you count pre and post workout nutrition as a meal. 
If you do you might say you eat 8 times a day...

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

yea he does place some focus on not neglecting the other 2 types however he says the majority of ur muscle gains and strength will come from the 4-6 rep range.  do u agree with that?

We know that training for strength is the way to get stronger, so that holds.

However if you look at the studies, you see that the body is not necessarily responding to low rep high weights with optimal growth.

ok so basically u disagree with that point.

ORIGINAL: danmirage

i also noticed he reccomends 5 meals a day rather than 6 to keep insulin levels down and fat down, but isnt the point of 6 meals to keep it so insulin never gets too high from one meal and will keep ur metabolism raised?

It is an intersting balancing act.
THe thermic effect of food is a plus.  More calories burned.
THe effect of optimization of digestion and faster nutrient processing means you can grow faster.
The Insulin levels are controlled by the CONTENT of the meals (why I advocate for veggies every meals)
THere is more than one way to get lean and the most successful while maintaining muscle is more frequent balanced meals.
Loads of research has been done on this as well.  So far, no other eating method has had as much success.
There are tweeks to it, such as caloric modulation through the week, etc...but you are still eating every 3-4 hours.
Naturally, 5 meals or six meals depends on the length of your day and the time between meals. 
Also, if you count pre and post workout nutrition as a meal. 
If you do you might say you eat 8 times a day...

yea i understand the point of the 6 meals and everything (and that with pre workout im actually eating 7 meals [well really like 6.5]).  i just found it weird that he says spreading the same calories/macro's over 6 meals instead of 5 could actually make u fatter, i dont get that. how would that be since it would raise insulin to higher levels?

for the most part though it seems u guys share the same opinions.

i like his point about having maintenance calories on off/cardio days and above maintenance on training days, its something ive thought about and have wanted to try in order to keep fat down but i keep hearing from others "no u need to keep calories above maintenance on those days too for recovery" however im not sure i agree for an endomorph. whats ur opinion on that?

Weekly Caloric modulation is interesting. 
The body is very complex and the mechanisms are quite responsive.
Overall I think it could be a tool to tweek the diet during a time of fat loss.
 
All things being equal, you would alter the caloic expenditure with the intake and adjustments up and down might merely make any over eating or undereating have a narrower range of effect.  The body will always shoot for the middle...anabolize some burn some or burn some catabolize some.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

Weekly Caloric modulation is interesting. 
The body is very complex and the mechanisms are quite responsive.
Overall I think it could be a tool to tweek the diet during a time of fat loss.

All things being equal, you would alter the caloic expenditure with the intake and adjustments up and down might merely make any over eating or undereating have a narrower range of effect.  The body will always shoot for the middle...anabolize some burn some or burn some catabolize some.

just to make sure im clear....
ur saying that having different calories on training/off days would be something u would use for cutting but not for bulking?

but that if u were to do that u would alter ur intake with how much u were exercising that day and it would make points of overeating and undereating not as bad? that would be good then right?  

but that if u were to do that u would alter ur intake with how much u were exercising that day and it would make points of overeating and undereating not as bad?

You think it would be that simlpe.  But the body is not static, it is VERY dynamic and it responds to everything.
You can only begin to guess how many calories you might burn in your exercise.
But if you modify caloric intake then the rate of burning is modified.
 
So this sort of 3 up 4 down kind of diet has equal response in each direction. 
When you raise calories, how do you think the body wil respond to it? 
When you lower them?
In reality, it tries to find the middle path over time.  So for a short while you may find that the overall result is maintenance or perhaps slight muscle gain and slight fat loss.
 
The body does not need to be constantly tweeked to GAIN muscle. 
It does that quite readily.
 
However, the mechanisms for fat loss are more adaptive....and perhaps seem more resistant.
 

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dan i appreciate all of ur help so much and i think i have to change now! i cant believe whats been happening!  i keep losing muscle and gaining fat!

these were my results back on january 12th

Saturday 1/12/08- WEIGHT: 154 lb       (8:00am)
Body Fat % using online test: 10.67 %  (-0.39%)
          Height: 5ft. 11in.                 
Fat: 16.44lb.  (-0.77)
Lean Body Mass: 137.56lb. (-0.73)
      chest: 11mm  (-0.0)
      Abs: 12.67mm  (-1.0)
      Thigh: 16.67mm  (-0.33)

these were my results this morning!

Saturday 2/9/08- WEIGHT: 156.75 lb       (7:30am)
Body Fat % using online test: 12. 88 %   (+0.58)   
Height: 5ft. 11in.                 
Fat: 20.101lb. 
Lean Body Mass: 135.90lb.
      chest: 12.83mm  (+.33)
      Abs: 16.167mm  (+.837)
      Thigh: 18.83mm  (+0.83)


i cant believe it. weeks of hard work, not cheating, everything followed and im getting horrible results.




i tried the diet and it clearly does not work. im going to follow everything u and dan gastelu have been saying and i'll try my best to come up with a plan following ur ideas. please look over it and tell me anything u might change to make it more optimal for gaining LBM while staying lean. im already at 12.83% now with less muscle than before and i dont want to get any higher than 15%!

its very unmotivating when this happens but im trying to push through it.  here is what i have so far

DIET
carbs: 45%
protein: 30%
fat: 25%

calories: i ate 3075 calories this week with ratio's of 45p/30c/25f and lost 3/4lb.  but since im raising carbs so much should i not raise calories??

CARDIO
HIIT on mon, wed, fri

WORKOUT
Tuesday- back/chest
thursday- legs
saturday- arms/shoulders

this workout is what i just started doing the last 5 weeks. and this last week started a new cycle of it (changing exercises and lowering weight so i can progress more)

i'll make the diet today and start it tomorow and post specifically whats in it

should i change this to full body? or more frequency?  that seems to be dan gastelu's and ur general opinion.   maybe NROL would be better?

again thank u for ur help, i really want to make this work.

Don't sweat it.  That just means your body is resistant now. 
You can change that.  You wil get the muscle back fast.
 
Was January 12 your most recent test?
 
Compare tests over a period not just one to another...chart long term trends...chart over 6 week periods and see.
 
Remember, if you drop protein and raise carbs your body will adjust...so my rec is to drop calories.
(try starting at 2700 - if you lose weight, which I doubt - after week one, add 250)
In fact if you are going to do this...why not give yourself more room to wiggle and go to
25p/45c/30f
 
Also do shorter more intense workouts...I don't know in what way Alwyn reconstituted the old rules of lifting but you should be doing something like this while you transition:
Basic 6 (to 9) body part exercises
 
But the first week or two go for the compound lifts in the 9-12 range with low rest (you may get to feel a bit queezy) supersetting if you need to:
 
Chest, Back, Leg, Shoulder, Bi, Tri
Later you could add Hams, Calf, abs, posterior and lateral delts
 
Warm up, train, cool down and get out of the gym as fast as you can with a hard fast workout.
 
M W F
You can train the whole body in about 40 minutes
Chest, Back, Leg, Shoulder, Bi, Tri
3 sets each, 9-12 rep range with low rest (30-45 seconds)
Your breathing should become faster and stay fast...
 
Staring here gives you lots of wiggle room...
 
In a week you can go to 4 sets
Next week you can add Hams, Calf, abs and switch to A/B/off
Maybe push pull/upper lower...whatever you like
 
From there you can ride that with giving more rest and doing short workouts still with other variations in intensity...
 
Then you should have adjusted to the new diet and you can hit a strength phase with basic moves in the 6-8, that will spike your GH and test...you can go that for up to 4 weeks.
 
Again A/B/off or A/B/off/C/A/off etc..
Can tweek that with A/B/C off A/B/C with that second day training in the 12 rep range.
 
You get it...you need it to be dynamic...
 
All the while just take measurements, track your changes, make training and diet adjustments as needed and laugh alot.
 
If you are doing HIIT, Keep it SHORT.  Start over from the shortest day of the HIIT progression.

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

Don't sweat it.  That just means your body is resistant now. 
You can change that.  You wil get the muscle back fast.

Was January 12 your most recent test?

Compare tests over a period not just one to another...chart long term trends...chart over 6 week periods and see.

no january 12th was just my best point (at the very end of my cut). my results have just been getting worse basically each week since then.

ORIGINAL: danmirage

Remember, if you drop protein and raise carbs your body will adjust...so my rec is to drop calories.
(try starting at 2700 - if you lose weight, which I doubt - after week one, add 250)
In fact if you are going to do this...why not give yourself more room to wiggle and go to
25p/45c/30f

okay i will move my calories down to about 2700, u dont think a 375 drop is too much though? i mean i lost weight with 3075. but ur the expert, i dont know exactly how the added carbs will affect me.

about the fat, are u sure thats not too high?  im in the middle of listening to dan gastelu's "lipid pt. 1" podcast and he talks about too high fat being bad. i've always heard 15-30% like u suggest, im just checking though because he said he feels close to 20% would be best

ORIGINAL: danmirage
But the first week or two go for the compound lifts in the 9-12 range with low rest (you may get to feel a bit queezy) supersetting if you need to:

Chest, Back, Leg, Shoulder, Bi, Tri
Later you could add Hams, Calf, abs, posterior and lateral delts

Warm up, train, cool down and get out of the gym as fast as you can with a hard fast workout.

M W F
You can train the whole body in about 40 minutes
Chest, Back, Leg, Shoulder, Bi, Tri
3 sets each, 9-12 rep range with low rest (30-45 seconds)
Your breathing should become faster and stay fast...

Staring here gives you lots of wiggle room...

In a week you can go to 4 sets
Next week you can add Hams, Calf, abs and switch to A/B/off
Maybe push pull/upper lower...whatever you like

From there you can ride that with giving more rest and doing short workouts still with other variations in intensity...

Then you should have adjusted to the new diet and you can hit a strength phase with basic moves in the 6-8, that will spike your GH and test...you can go that for up to 4 weeks.

Again A/B/off or A/B/off/C/A/off etc..
Can tweek that with A/B/C off A/B/C with that second day training in the 12 rep range.

You get it...you need it to be dynamic...

ok this part is somewhat confusing me.   i get the beginning where u suggest the basic routine. then u say add a set, then add exercises, etc...

but how often do i need to switch, i thought it would take a little longer to get used to it but ur saying add another set for each exercise by the next week? and then add exercises the week after that?   i guess i just need some clarification with the exact progression periods

one point i think u made and i know D.G. made is about not having a set calendar workout schedule and that u can workout more frequently depending on ur body's reaction. unfortunately i dont get my license until june so i have to go with my dad, so days i can go are tuesday, thursday, friday, saturday, sunday.
u said M W F which i could so Tues, thurs, saturday. but after that im not sure how i would make it more dynamic. maybe doing A,rest,B,A,rest, B, rest, repeat.

as far as intensity, should i start light enough so that i can progress by 2.5-5lb. each workout without going to failure except maybe at the last workouts? or should i start heavier? (because if i was to do full body, progressing each time for even 2 weeks i'd be starting considerably light at first). adding that 4th set the next week while staying with the same weight would be alot of progression though right? so i guess i should implement other forms of progression besides always adding weight?

ORIGINAL: danmirage

All the while just take measurements, track your changes, make training and diet adjustments as needed

ok i do that now so i'll just continue with that.

ORIGINAL: danmirage
and laugh alot.

lol idk if that was serious but it made me laugh. i know theres benefits to laughing though

ORIGINAL: danmirage

If you are doing HIIT, Keep it SHORT.  Start over from the shortest day of the HIIT progression.

yea i think the HIIT would help keep my calories burned on days i dont workout close to that of the days i do so i dont have too much excess on those days, so as long as u dont think it would hurt i'll do it.     the way i do it is pretty short (5 min warm up, 12 min. of intervals, 5min. cool down)

Remember the body adjusts constantly so look at the trand week to week...
 
High Protein raised your metabolism.
Increasing carbs will increase your anabolism with fewer calories.
 
The 30% fat is to support hormone production for growth.
 
Forget the obsession to add weight.
Use the weight that allows the chosen rep range.
That weighth will change from wekk to week.
Some weeks ytou are stronger, some weaker.
 
5+12+5 minutes is too long!
Try this progression:
http://www.musclemedia.com/training/hiit_table.asp
Start at week 1!!!!  Only 4 minutes.
That way you are creating a new progression as well as avoiding catabolism in the beginning.
 
tuesday, thursday = A/rest/B 
friday = Rest
saturday, sunday.  = A/B
That works!

Basic routine for a week or two...every time you go to the gym, different progression.
i.e.
 
A1 Flat bench, eccentric acceleration
A2 Incline dumbbell eccentric deceleration
 
You can also use a high low scheme...so 12 reps A1, 6-8 reps A2
 
Changes should be ongoing but gradual.
If you do 3 sets of bench at 220
Each set to positive failure
With reps at 9, 9 , 9
Next time 10, 9, 9 reps
next time 11, 10, 10
Next 12 reps, 11 reps, 9
Next time you may get 12, 12, 8
Next 12, 12, 11
 
Next time you amy go to 230
10, 9, 9
etc..see how you can sometimes go weeks without raising the weight.
 
Now, if you start with supersets of back/chest and no rest from back to chest but a minute between super sets
10, 9, 9 reps
Then the next time you do it not supersets with 90 seconds between chest -chest -chest
12 reps, 11 reps, 9
Then next time you do it  not supersets with  45 seconds between  chest -chest -chest
10, 9, 8 reps
 
See how there is a constant progression in some measure?
Reps, speed, superset...
You can tweek it for a year at the same weight and get gains the whole time...

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

Remember the body adjusts constantly so look at the trand week to week...

High Protein raised your metabolism.
Increasing carbs will increase your anabolism with fewer calories.

The 30% fat is to support hormone production for growth.

Forget the obsession to add weight.
Use the weight that allows the chosen rep range.
That weighth will change from wekk to week.
Some weeks ytou are stronger, some weaker.

5+12+5 minutes is too long!
Try this progression:
http://www.musclemedia.com/training/hiit_table.asp
Start at week 1!!!!  Only 4 minutes.
That way you are creating a new progression as well as avoiding catabolism in the beginning.

ok, i will start with 25p/45c/30f. what carb would u suggest post workout since u said oatmeal is bad? im making the diet now and im trying to something thats not too high GI but not full of fiber

any opinion on tapering carbs and calories later in the day?

i never thought about progressing with cardio during a bulk but i guess it still makes sense. do i still do a warm up? i would think just starting on a sprint would have obvious problems.

ORIGINAL: danmirage

tuesday, thursday = A/rest/B 
friday = Rest
saturday, sunday.  = A/B
That works!

Basic routine for a week or two...every time you go to the gym, different progression.
i.e.

A1 Flat bench, eccentric acceleration
A2 Incline dumbbell eccentric deceleration

by that example u mean A1 eccentric part of the lift is fast and A2 eccentric part of the lift is slow right? i never really thought fast eccentric did much since its kind of just dropping the weight

ur above split example would be for later progression right? but u reccomend i start with the full body 3 days a week 3 sets per bodypart per workout right?

ORIGINAL: danmirage

Changes should be ongoing but gradual.
If you do 3 sets of bench at 220
Each set to positive failure
With reps at 9, 9 , 9
Next time 10, 9, 9 reps
next time 11, 10, 10
Next 12 reps, 11 reps, 9
Next time you may get 12, 12, 8
Next 12, 12, 11

Next time you amy go to 230
10, 9, 9
etc..see how you can sometimes go weeks without raising the weight.

ok so u suggest i go to positive failure on each set? my reps usually drop by about 2-3 reps if i use the same weight and went to failure with that weight the set before.

ORIGINAL: danmirage
Now, if you start with supersets of back/chest and no rest from back to chest but a minute between super sets
10, 9, 9 reps
Then the next time you do it not supersets with 90 seconds between chest -chest -chest
12 reps, 11 reps, 9
Then next time you do it  not supersets with  45 seconds between  chest -chest -chest
10, 9, 8 reps

See how there is a constant progression in some measure?
Reps, speed, superset...
You can tweek it for a year at the same weight and get gains the whole time...

hmm, this is when i get confused about what exactly "progression is".   u said going to 45 seconds rest but lower reps is still progression, but obviously if u did like 2 reps per set it wouldnt be. kind of like when is the point where its no longer progression? same with the superset, it seems like overall that would make the workout less intense (although for that one i see what ur saying since the rest between sets for chest would go down)


lol just noticed this while looking at ur other thread
This is based upon my body’s chemistry (which, it has been determined through testing and feedback, favors higher fat and lower carbohydrates) and my goal of gaining muscle with a minimum of fat gain.  My target is 3000 calories with 25% of the total from Protein, 30% of the total from fat and 45% of the total from carbs.
 
This is a very low carb portion and very high fat portion of total intake and based upon research and statistics would be very inappropriate for 87% of people.