Advice on DB topics for Severely Overweight ppl? Many questions... help!

1)  This seems like a TON of food every 3 hours.  And Im not especially hungry when the next meal time rolls around.  I feel like Im stuffing myself every 3 hours and it's really hard to convince myself that that's healthy... is this normal?

Yes.
Like everything else, eating is a progressive thing.
For starters, you have to teach the body to be more efficient at using food.

So, for now only eat until you are not hungry.  Then do it again in 3 hours.  At first you will not be very hungry..but you will train the metabolism nd digestion to be more efficient.

Also, pay attention to satiety, energy, vitality, focus etc after each meal. 
These are signals used to help fine tune the ideal ratio for you for long term excellence.

2)  Are there any "sauces" or something similar that are OK to use in moderation in/on these foods?  Hotsauce, anything?  LOL must find flavor!!  Most things are incredibly dry - dull taste I can put up with, but dry foods (i.e. lean meats/potatoes/etc) are very hard for me to tolerate   I have to chase every bite with water LOL

Ha ha HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Yes, yes....you want to flavor and enjoy the food!
Dont make things dry...use spices, sauces, etc..however PAY ATTENTION to what is in them.  Fit them into your meal plan in moderation.

Go somewhere like http://www.acefitness.org/getfit/recipes.aspx or allrecipes.com for recipe ideas to make your own!

In the beginning, just start with easy things and get 1 recipe...then add another recipe and another..soon you Will have a whole repertoire of great foods to draw from!

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ORIGINAL: danmirage

1)  This seems like a TON of food every 3 hours.  And Im not especially hungry when the next meal time rolls around.  I feel like Im stuffing myself every 3 hours and it's really hard to convince myself that that's healthy... is this normal?

Yes.
Like everything else, eating is a progressive thing.
For starters, you have to teach the body to be more efficient at using food.

So, for now only eat until you are not hungry.  Then do it again in 3 hours.  At first you will not be very hungry..but you will train the metabolism nd digestion to be more efficient.

Also, pay attention to satiety, energy, vitality, focus etc after each meal. 
These are signals used to help fine tune the ideal ratio for you for long term excellence.

i agree! when i first started to eat every three hours, i almost felt like throwin up, it felt like to much. but after a couple of weeks, if i didnt eat every three hours or so i would be starving. ive lost fat this way. good luck!

one speed: full speed

Your White Tee Well To Me Looks Like A Nightgown
Make Ya Mama Proud Take That Thing 2 Sizes Down

thx guys - this definitely helps lol

- GABE

Not being hungry is a good thing though, it means that when you eat every three hours your not making it to starvation mode yet... Starvation=bad
 
But after a few weeks of this your metabolism will be cooking so fast, you will get to the point in which you almost cant wait 3 hours... Then you start looking for more complex foods that last longer, and you will be able to tell the difference.... Its amazing how easy it is to listen to your body when your locked on..
 
If you look around you can find some so called "Low carb" sauces... but as dan said, look at whats in them.... But if having a bit of BBQ sauce with your chicken (1 tablespoon) enables you to eat this way, then thats what you need to do... better than big macs.
 
After a while, you will find you will want to drop some of the "less than effective" sauces and go for spices... but just work your way into it buddy. 
 
As far as oatmeal... a bit a splenda can go a long way... if you still cant take it, then 1 large strawberry, or 1/4 of a diced apple works well... not the "most effective" but if it keeps you eating it, then do it in moderation..
 
Makes me so happy to see you starting this new journey..
 
Have you been able to make it to lifting and cardio yet?

Eat...Lift....Sleep......Repeat

Enjoy the process.. but crave the goal.

OK, I started my training plan at the gym on Monday.  Overall, it was very good, and I was pleased in that I know I did not overtrain (never pushed anything to failure), but I can certainly feel the results.  However, I have a question
 
I am still pretty sore from my workout on Monday night, but my training plan calls for me to go back tonite (Wed) for day 2 of 3.  Should I wait until I am not longer sore (and more fully healed) before I go back, or should I just go ahead?  I just don't wanna hinder progress by not allowing my body time to recover.

- GABE

If it's an unbearable soreness.. the kind where it's hard to walk or fully extend a body part.. then wait.

If it's just a mild soreness.. go for it.  

You probably aren't recovered anyway.  Since training is kinda new, you are bound to get more sore and take longer to recover.  That will go away in a few weeks.

It's up to you.  As a beginner, you're going to make progress but some of the things like recovery will take longer than it should becuase you pushed yourself but your body isn't able to just quickly recover in 2-3 days.

I've worked out sore and felt just fine.

But if it's one of those.. "gosh I can barely walk" then I would skip it.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

Are you working the same body parts? For example, if you worked your legs on Monday, but Wednesday is chest and triceps there's no reason to skip your chest workout if it's your legs that are sore.

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Marc is spot on.
 

 If it's an unbearable soreness.. the kind where it's hard to walk or fully extend a body part.. then wait.

If it's just a mild soreness.. go for it. 

 
The soreness is simply because you are not yet conditioned enough to remove all the oxidative metabolites from trianing.
 
If you train again, it will help with removal.
 
If you feel tired, then wait a day.  No problem there.

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Great answers - just what I wanted to hear    Im looking forward to getting back in there tonite!
 
BTW jheft, I do a full body workout routine (3 days a week), so the muscle group theory doesnt really apply

- GABE

- GABE

::  Beginning  :: 
  Body Fat = 53%
Lean Body Mass = 197 lbs.
Weight =  420 lbs. 
  
::  Short Term Goals  :: 
  By 6/18/07 (12 weeks) 
Body Fat = 45%
Lean Body Mass = 199 lbs.
Weight =  360 lbs. (approx.)

 
You want to start with somewhat conservative short term goals.
 
Loss of 62 pounds of fat and gain in 2 pound muscle in 12 weeks is not really reasonable.
 
Loss of 18-24 pounds of fat in 12 weeks is a conservative outlook.  You may do better and that is fine..thats all bonus loss!
 
Maybe 400 in 12 weeks
Then a 1-year goal of 300-320.  With a general + in muscle mass.
 
Then another 7-9  months should put you at a number closer to 240 +-.
 
Why conservative? 
My friend, it is always better to overdeliver than overpromise!
 
Don't even plan for more fat loss than 2 pounds per week. 
1.5 pounds loss a week is a better, more conservative average.
 
OK?
 
P.S. If  you are tracking changes with calipers on a weekly basis, then you will be able to stay on target the majority of the time!

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Be sure to get some potassium of sorts in your diet, A banana post workout is nice, or like me who is trying to cut the fruit, I take a potassium pill at night (super cheap) when I get into the sore game...
 
Staying with it the first week is a huge victory, next is 2 weeks, then a month, and so on and so on. Be sure to recognize your victories when you achive them.
 
You seem to have the makings of an unstopable fat burning machine.

Eat...Lift....Sleep......Repeat

Enjoy the process.. but crave the goal.

Guys, I need some help here... and I hope this doesnt get me flamed too bad   I've thought long and hard before posting this issue, and I've decided I'm just going to have to in order to continue reaching for my goals.
 
There is simply no way Im going to be able to continue cooking 5-6 meals a day.  With school/work/baby going on all day long, I simply do NOT have time to cook this much.  I've even tried to cook almost all of my food for the day in one cooking session, but that is only minimal time relief because even that takes a huge chunk of my morning.  I find myself hardly ever eating my full 6 meals a day   This is also really bothering me because I see it starting to affect some of the other responsibilities and things that I HAVE to do during the day.
 
So, my question is... what could I use for Meal Replacement, so that I could cook for maybe 3 meals a day, and then have MRP/protein shake for the other 3?  I am aware that MRPs are not the optimal way to go for me - I understand that.  However, it's pretty much down to doing it this way and maintaining some sanity, or quitting all together.  I know there are tons of MRPs out there, so which would be best for me?
 
Another question I have is: How critical is it for me to have the ratio Im aiming for (25/50/25) of macros at EVERY meal?  Is it more important that I stick to the intake ratio per meal, or just end up with that ratio daily (over the course of the day)?

- GABE

I think ratio daily but dont quote me.

and if your serious find a time that you dont go to work, and your not in school, and when the baby is sleeping cook all of your food then. if that means getting up an hour earlier, I'd do it. I know it seems like you dont have any time at all but you do. your just sleeping through most of it. granted you do need the proper amount of sleep. if you cant wake up earlier, dont watch TV or eat lunch at the office (or job site) instead of going out, dont take a lunch break and leave an hour earlier. I mean eat but work while you do it.

Gin Rummy: Simply because you don't have evidence that something does exist does not mean you have evidence of something that doesn't exist.(from the boondocks)

Making 6 meals a day is definitely a big challenge, but not an insurmountable one. Meal replacements aren't ideal, but they are a better option than giving up (even having fewer meals, while not great, is a much better option than giving up). Don't let the perfect get in the way of the good! I don't have much experience myself with meal replacements, but if you do a search, you should be able to find several threads about them.

The trick to preparing things in advance is find things you can cook up lots of at once. Often, preparing several servings of something at once takes the same amount of time as preparing one serving. For example, you can measure out 2 cups of rice and cook that, which will be four servings that you can just microwave later. Cook up a pound of chicken breasts, and that's four servings. You can do the same with veggies, etc. You wouldn't eat that all for four meals the next day, but it would cover one or two meals a day for the next few days. If you do this each day when preparing dinner, then stick the extra servings in the fridge, and sorta stagger what you're making, then you'll have a constantly rotating supply of meals that you can heat up and eat. It's something you'll get the hang of over time.

I find that morning is a bad time to try to get anything done, so cooking in the evening might be easier for you.

Another question I have is: How critical is it for me to have the ratio Im aiming for (25/50/25) of macros at EVERY meal? Is it more important that I stick to the intake ratio per meal, or just end up with that ratio daily (over the course of the day)?

I'm sure Dan will be able to better able to comment on the relative importance... While getting a perfect split every meal would be ideal, the most important thing is to at least get in the ballpark. For example, it would be bad to get a very high protein meal with few carbs, because then your body has to go into protein to carb conversion mode, which isn't good. Likewise, it would be bad to have a high carb meal with no protein.

And you do have to work within what your body can tolerate. Most mornings during the week, my stomach is not 100% ready to go when I have to eat breakfast, so I have to eat a fairly small meal, even though it's ideal to get more calories during the first part of the day. Also, I find that I have to have something sorta fatty in one of my first two meals of the day, like cheese, eggs, nuts or peanut butter. If I don't get some fat in the morning, my whole day goes off kilter, I get hungry at the wrong times, or not at all, I have trouble eating the right things, I have no energy and I'm grumpy. I can do fine on 20% of my calories from fat per day, or even less, so long as I get that dose in the morning.

I know some of this is challenging and might require some changes in other parts of your life to make time, but it will be even more inconvenient when weighing 400 pounds kills you. If you ever find yourself struggling, or thinking you just can't do it, don't be afraid to come back here, there will always be people ready to help.

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to add to what jheft said stir fry was always a great meal for me when I could cook. you throw in your veggies, your meat, whatever else, let it cook and store it for later. Just one thing I thought. I mean for eaiser meal plans.

Gin Rummy: Simply because you don't have evidence that something does exist does not mean you have evidence of something that doesn't exist.(from the boondocks)

Yes, this can be a challenge.
 
I solve it by cooking 1 time per week.
I look at my meal plan and cook everything then pre-separate it into meal portions.
1 time a day I pack all my meals.  It takes me 3-5 minutes every morning to pack 4 meals.
 
So, on Sunday I cook a whole 3-4 pound chicken, a 2 pounds of turkey, 2 pounds of lean beef, 2 pounds of salmon...I also cook up the sweet potatos, and rice that I need.  The veggies I will steam if I eat them steamed, though I personally eat mine all fresh.
 
The whole cooking affair takes about 30 minutes of hands on time to cut and spice and prep and get in the oven... and about 2 hours of cooking and packing.  I am usually doing dishes and other stuff so I don't notice the cooking.
 
That might solve your cooking issue.  That is how all the athletes I know handle it.
 
Ok lets get you on track a moment.
 
One rule is: NEVER miss a meal.
 
When you are trying to lose fat (or gain muscle), you want to keep the body in a fat loss (or muscle gaining) state all-the-time.
Any time you cause it to go into a survival state (missing a meal) or a fat storage state (eating sugar) it takes a while to get the hormones back on track.
 
Another Rule: This has to work for YOU
 
The way I do it is not the way you do it.  You are now an athlete. When you eat, people should know you are an athlete by the way you eat!  However, this has to work for you.
 
So you go through a few trial and error stages to discover what is do-able for you.  Nobody said it would be easy, but it can be simple and it can be personally manageable. 
 
However, you should know that it may yake you time to get totally comfotable with this.  The information you have is how to do this is an advanced manner.  Just be aware that there is a learning curve and you might fall off, like this,  a few times.
 
Ok the final questions...
Can you use meal replacements: Yes, Any time you can not get to a meal, a meal replacement is needed, but...
 
The problem with meal replacements are many.  They lower your caloric expenditure.  They all contain high sugar or artificial sweeteners.  Either of those can impede fat loss!  That means taking a meal replacement 3x a day will impede fat loss.  1x a day might not be a problem but you have to get a baseline of progress first and then put the MRP in and see if it trips up your momentum.
 
Powders are better than bars in most every case.  I will make some recommendations at the very end...if cooking 1x a week still does not work.
 

How critical is it for me to have the ratio Im aiming for (25/50/25) of macros at EVERY meal?  Is it more important that I stick to the intake ratio per meal, or just end up with that ratio daily (over the course of the day)?

Every meal should be within 5% of the target.  You just plan meals that do it. The end of day, total ratio should be within 5% of the target as well.
 
Let me explain what is coming. 
You have been training in the gym maybe 4 days?  Awesome!
 
Every 8-12 weeks you take a week off and then start a new resistance and cardio workout plan that has built in progressions. 
 
As you go, you continually add recipes to your cooking repertoire that please you and are easy for you to eat.  Even 1 new recipe a week is progress!  In 7 weeks you have all new foods you are eatin and every week something is changing.  In 12 weeks, you have a "cookbook" and you can pick a certain meal and exchange it for any other meal any time!
 
Once you get settled into training and progressing and have momentum...I will recommend a few dietary changes that will speed up the process.  If you did them now, the only thing that would happen would be...you would stall.
 
What you are doing now is the best thing you could do.  For you, for your family...
 
Ok...some alternatives. 
 
Bars
ThinkThin bars
(I use these as a travelling MR)
 
OR
 
Designer Supplements sustain bar
http://www.supplements101.com/Sustain_Bars_p/dessustainbars.htm
 
Either should be eaten with a vegetable and might be reasonable.
 
As for MRPs...
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_109098/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#109281
Again, should be eaten with a vegetable and might be reasonable.

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AS I have said before... and usually people don't take kindly to this...
 
I have been through EXACTLY what your going through, I have a wife and 3 kids, twins, and a 3 year old... it is possible.... BUT it takes time to perfect your schedual.....
 
 
When I started there was no way I was going to be able to cook 6 meals a day, go to the gym, work a full time job, and get in plenty of sleep.... over time, I have been able to adapt... overcome, change, manipulate... and have come to a decent balance... but still not perfect...
 
 
 I don't have everything perfect, ensuring I get the exact nutrients to boost my metabolism, stimulate hormones, and give me perfect skin and hair to boot... but in the end, I am better than what I was a year ago...
 
Ultimately you need to have a goal of simply doing better than what you were before... not doing perfect.... its easy for people to give perfect advise as they want you to have the most success you can...
 
Take all of this advise as a buffett... you pick and chose what you can do...
 
MRP shakes are not the best for thermionic fat burning, but if that is what it takes to keep 5-6 meals a day, that is better than nothing... If you need to have a sandwich for lunch because it is easier than grilling a chicken breast, that "Healthy made" sandwich is much better than A: nothing, or worse b: a burger..
 
If you are feeling like quitting, now is the most important time to figure out what you feel your capable of doing without totally falling off...
 
Why are you doing this? Keep telling yourself that why.... even the shallow part (For me, it's having major beefcakeage  ) ... over and over and over... do not give up...
 
 
 
Some quick tips that I found worked for me...
 
I take a tub of low fat cottage cheese to work every week and eat from it, I buy restaurant packs of pregrilled chicken breasts from costco every week, low cal, low fat, works great 2 minutes in the micro and bam, instant chicken, I also take a small tub of string beans to work, again, micro them with my chicken and I'm done, instant 3 course meal with absolutely no prep, and very quick an satisfying...
 
I'm sure my chicken has hormones... and my string beans have massive sodium, but it is better than what could be...
 
After 96 pounds lost, and 1 year of doing this, I am barely ready to start really looking at labels of food and checking for hydrogenated fats, and syrups of sorts..
 
Good luck, I really am hoping for you and your wifes success... I would say that I am praying for you but that sounds corny and would make people roll their eyes at me... like usually
 
(Your body is going through some changes right now as you fit up, this may cause some odd feelings and frustrations until you get used to them, remember some of this could be small hormone changes, sugar cravings, and who knows what else..)
 
 

Eat...Lift....Sleep......Repeat

Enjoy the process.. but crave the goal.

As usual coop, your post from the "I've been there" is right on.
 

 
Ultimately you need to have a goal of simply doing better than what you
were before... not doing perfect....

 
^^^Exactly!^^^

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Hehehe thanks...
 
Although at times I can be a bit high strung or over "Passionate" about this..
 
 
Hows it going Drastic?

Eat...Lift....Sleep......Repeat

Enjoy the process.. but crave the goal.

Sorry for being scarce, I've honestly been pretty sick over the last few days with a bad sinus infection... was running fever for 2 whole days.  But no, I didn't quit or anything   Just holding off on training until Im better.
 
My plan for now is to hold off on MRPs, and to try the "cook everything on 1 day" plan and see if that can lessen the time crunch to something more managable.  Thanks again all for the suggestions and encouragement 

- GABE

Awesome thread and full of great advice and tips.

Keep posting Drastic.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

    This thread really is full of a lot of information.  Very well done.

How goes the progress? Sometimes it helps to keep posting to maintain a focus on this.

Eat...Lift....Sleep......Repeat

Enjoy the process.. but crave the goal.

update coming soon - i havent forgotten about you guys

- GABE

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Nor have we forgotten about you, I'm sure your in many of our thoughts in hopes of great success..

Eat...Lift....Sleep......Repeat

Enjoy the process.. but crave the goal.

oh yeah quick question:
 
I know I need 8 hours of sleep... would it be OK to do like 6 hours per night, and a 2 hour nap during the day?  Or is it best to get all 8 at once overnight?

- GABE

In short, you want all your sleep at nigh at one time.  You also benefit from a nap each day.
 
The actual amount of time for full recovery can be 8 hours give or take. 
This is what is hormonally optimal for recovery and fat loss. 
 
Given your unique situation, do your best! 
If it has to be 6 & 2, it will still get you where you want to go!

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Yeah, get the sleep in when you feel you need it, your body will tell you when it is exhausted...
 
I wouldnt try to get 6/2 each day, more when you feel you need it... There can be times I dont get much sleep at all, but I feel fine, then there are times I can get 9-10 hours and it still isnt enough..

Eat...Lift....Sleep......Repeat

Enjoy the process.. but crave the goal.