5x5 results been great but gains have stopped! HST-strictly compounds- question?

Been following a 5x5 routine consisting of mon,wed,fri alternating between workout

A- squats 5x5, Benchpress 5x5, Barbell rows 5x5, Dips 3xF
B- squats 5x5, OH Press 5x5, Deadlifts 1x5, Chinups 3xF

I have gained about 20Lbs most of it consisting of muscles and diet was not perfect all the time. I have reached 245Lbs on deadlifts (without using an mixed grip!!!), 155Lbs Benchpress, 105Lbs standing OH Press, and 195Lbs squats (had an injury before so squats was held off till injury healed)so squats would of been higher.

So far squats and deadlifts can still go up. Problem past couple of weeks has been that I've been feeling alot more tired and benchpress, OH Press can't go any higher. Dips and Chinups hasn't improved much past weeks. Got up to 8 reps on the chinups and 12 reps on dips but can't repeat it often.

Muscle gains have pretty much stopped a while ago so weight been stuck at about 202Lbs. Strength gains been great but only squats and deadlifts still have room to grow. So this past week did mon, thursday workout only while dropping dips,chinups and reduce sets on exercises so as kinda of a rest.

Starting monday want to start a different approach so HST is on the list. So I believe in 3 day full body workouts like smoundozou puts out. So I'm sticking with that so I don't bother with isolation exercises just compound movements.

Problem is that HST routine consists of compounds plus some isolation work. I just want to know if not doing the little isolation work that I'm breaking their idea and gains won't be good as many have experienced???

I'm keeping the basics like squats, deadlifts etc and already have an idea on ab work consisting of a compound movement not a isolation called turkish getups. If there is any good compound movements that will benefit me in doing a hst method I would love to hear it!! Plus if there is other compound ab movements then please tell me. Don't like isolation ab work since I do believe they cause back problems and stuff (weighted situps for example).

Appreciate the help guys!!!    I'm 6'1, weigh about 202Lbs, bf% ??? just so you guys know!!!

For the Isolation concern I dont think it changes anything much because I do recall smoudzou giving me a compound routine for HST and I believe it was

Pull ups
Squats
Deads
Bench
Rows
Oh press

So ah, I think kicking out the isos will work

My 5x5s as of November 2nd 2008.
Squat 155lbs
Bench 155lbs
Deadlift 155lbs

Connelly's 5x5s as November 2nd 2008
Bench 115
Squat 145
Deadlift 165

Andy11's 5x5 as November 2nd 2008
Bench 150
Squat 150
Deadlift 175

I've been looking around in the hst forums (didn't even know they had that lol) and it seems many people just stick to compounds so that's good news for me.

mon,fri- squats, incline bench, chinups, seated DB press, "definite compound ab work"
wed- deadlifts, oh press, bent over rows, dips, "might or might not do compound ab work"

Two questions I have is one- the whole idea of finding your maxes of 15,10, and 5 reps. I never did it and I really wouldn't want to try it since I workout alone. So it just a better idea in just decreasing the weights a bit I think it's appropriate for the rep range in use or not?

Work my way up from that and every two weeks moving on to the next rep range is the supposed method. Second question is the sets to use?? Is 1x15, 2x10, 3x5, 5x5 better first time around or 2x15, 3x10, 5x5, 3x3 is better to use here??? The rep ranges changes every two weeks as the HST method states.

The HST i did I was like you, I didn't really try my maxes I just took a weight that I estimated a good 15 a good 10 so on so on and just added weight from there.

As for the weekxrep I did 2x15 2x10 3x5

My 5x5s as of November 2nd 2008.
Squat 155lbs
Bench 155lbs
Deadlift 155lbs

Connelly's 5x5s as November 2nd 2008
Bench 115
Squat 145
Deadlift 165

Andy11's 5x5 as November 2nd 2008
Bench 150
Squat 150
Deadlift 175

ORIGINAL: felonyr301

I've been looking around in the hst forums (didn't even know they had that lol) and it seems many people just stick to compounds so that's good news for me.

mon,fri- squats, incline bench, chinups, seated DB press, "definite compound ab work"
wed- deadlifts, oh press, bent over rows, dips, "might or might not do compound ab work"

Two questions I have is one- the whole idea of finding your maxes of 15,10, and 5 reps. I never did it and I really wouldn't want to try it since I workout alone. So it just a better idea in just decreasing the weights a bit I think it's appropriate for the rep range in use or not?

Work my way up from that and every two weeks moving on to the next rep range is the supposed method. Second question is the sets to use?? Is 1x15, 2x10, 3x5, 5x5 better first time around or 2x15, 3x10, 5x5, 3x3 is better to use here??? The rep ranges changes every two weeks as the HST method states.

I think you will get some great results with HST.

as for the rep ranges..   2 sets of 15 for 2 weeks
 
then 2 sets of 10

and then 2 or 3 sets of 6 or 5.

My name is FOX.... and I approve this message.

Thanks for the fast reply so I'll try the 2x15,2x10,3x5 way.

One problem is that I can only do 5-7 reps on the chinups and 10-12 reps on the dips so how is it going to affect me here. I guess just include the dips when doing 2x10, and then do chinups when doing 3x5 would be better for now.

So I'm going to have to rearrange some stuff so-
2x15 week- mon,fri- squats, incline bench, underhand lat pulldowns, seated DB press
                wed- deadlifts, OH press, bent over DB rows, DB benchpress

2x10 week- mon,fri- squats, incline bench, underhand lat pulldowns, seated DB press
               wed- deadlifts, OH press, dips, bent over (DB or BB?) rows

3x5 week-  mon,fri- squats, incline bench, chinups, seated DB press
              wed- deadlifts, OH press, dips(weighted), bent over BB rows

Only thing I don't like here is that I won't be able to do chinups much but I can't do the 2x15 or 2x10 weeks so there is nothing I can do here. Been following mostly a strength rep scheme since I started doing 3 full body day workouts. So this will be a good change!!!

I just checked and the underhand lat pulldowns is considered a compound exercise so I put it up for 2x15, 2x10 instead. Hope this is a good way in grouping these exercises!!!

Looking around and it seems that vertical leg-hip raise is considered an ab compound movement. It's similar to a vertical leg raise (vertical=hanging) but that one is a isolation movement and abs is not the target muscle also.

The leg-hip raise is this=



The regular leg raise=   The difference is shown on the two gifs I put up.

So I'll probably will include the leg-hip raise as the last workout on mon,fridays since it is a compound movement and include an compound exercise which the obliques is the target muscle on wednesdays!!!

ORIGINAL: felonyr301

Thanks for the fast reply so I'll try the 2x15,2x10,3x5 way.

One problem is that I can only do 5-7 reps on the chinups and 10-12 reps on the dips so how is it going to affect me here. I guess just include the dips when doing 2x10, and then do chinups when doing 3x5 would be better for now.

So I'm going to have to rearrange some stuff so-
2x15 week- mon,fri- squats, incline bench, underhand lat pulldowns, seated DB press
               wed- deadlifts, OH press, bent over DB rows, DB benchpress

2x10 week- mon,fri- squats, incline bench, underhand lat pulldowns, seated DB press
               wed- deadlifts, OH press, dips, bent over (DB or BB?) rows

3x5 week-  mon,fri- squats, incline bench, chinups, seated DB press
              wed- deadlifts, OH press, dips(weighted), bent over BB rows

Only thing I don't like here is that I won't be able to do chinups much but I can't do the 2x15 or 2x10 weeks so there is nothing I can do here. Been following mostly a strength rep scheme since I started doing 3 full body day workouts. So this will be a good change!!!

I just checked and the underhand lat pulldowns is considered a compound exercise so I put it up for 2x15, 2x10 instead. Hope this is a good way in grouping these exercises!!!

since you said you can only do a certain amount of the dips and chins...   you might consider doing lat pulldowns and increase that weight until you get stronger for pullups.   you can also do rows of course.

instead of dips, close grip chest benchpress and skullcrushers will get your triceps stronger so you can do dips later on.

My name is FOX.... and I approve this message.

Thanks for the reply...

Yea I already added the lat pulldowns for the 2x15,2x10 weeks and hitting chins on 3x5 weeks and see how it goes from there.

Dips will be doing them in 2x10,3x5 weeks and in 2x15 weeks is where I do DB Benchpress. I never did CG Benchpress so I don't know about that. I won't do tricep isolation work since I like to keep it all compound so skullcrushers is out but thanks anyways but I'll think about the CG benchpress though.

So this is what I'm going to be doing for my first official HST workout...

2x15-m,f-Squats,Incline bench,Lat pulldowns,Seated DB press,Hanging leg-hip raise
wed- Deadlifts,OH press,Bent Over DB rows,DB benchpress,Weighted Incline Twisting Situp 

2x10-m,f-Squats,Incline bench,Lat pulldowns,Seated DB press,Hanging leg-hip raise
wed- Deadlifts,OH press,Dips,Bent Over (DB or BB) rows,Weighted Incline Twisting Situp

3x5-m,f-Squats,Incline bench,Chinups,Seated DB press,Hanging leg-hip raise
wed- Deadlifts,OH press,Dips(weighted),Bent Over BB rows,Weighted Incline Twisting Situp

Overall I'm doing 4 exercises+abs every workout.

The only thing I'm deciding on is either do DB bent over rows or Barbell rows for 2x10 weeks. Everything seems good!!!

ORIGINAL: felonyr301

Thanks for the reply...

Yea I already added the lat pulldowns for the 2x15,2x10 weeks and hitting chins on 3x5 weeks and see how it goes from there.

Dips will be doing them in 2x10,3x5 weeks and in 2x15 weeks is where I do DB Benchpress. I never did CG Benchpress so I don't know about that. I won't do tricep isolation work since I like to keep it all compound so skullcrushers is out but thanks anyways but I'll think about the CG benchpress though.

So this is what I'm going to be doing for my first official HST workout...

2x15-m,f-Squats,Incline bench,Lat pulldowns,Seated DB press,Hanging leg-hip raise
wed- Deadlifts,OH press,Bent Over DB rows,DB benchpress,Weighted Incline Twisting Situp 

2x10-m,f-Squats,Incline bench,Lat pulldowns,Seated DB press,Hanging leg-hip raise
wed- Deadlifts,OH press,Dips,Bent Over (DB or BB) rows,Weighted Incline Twisting Situp

3x5-m,f-Squats,Incline bench,Chinups,Seated DB press,Hanging leg-hip raise
wed- Deadlifts,OH press,Dips(weighted),Bent Over BB rows,Weighted Incline Twisting Situp

Overall I'm doing 4 exercises+abs every workout.

The only thing I'm deciding on is either do DB bent over rows or Barbell rows for 2x10 weeks. Everything seems good!!!

well.. it would be in your best interest to throw in a few isolation exercises.  it does NOT have to be much, but at the end of your compound exercises.. you could add in 1 or 2 sets of skullcrushers, or closegrip BP,  bicep curls.. whatever really.  it says that on the official HST website btw... so it's not like you're not following the technique correctly.

besides.. you're only as strong as your weakest part. so why not do JUUUSt little extra work on the triceps so you can get to where you want to be, and then progress from there.  that's just my opinion

My name is FOX.... and I approve this message.

For the safety of your spinal vertebrae I strongly advise that you eliminate all ab exercises.
People get bulging 6-packs from compound lifts because every exercise is a core lift. The only diff between any other exercise that uses your abs as a stabiliser muscle and 'direct' ab work is that the other exercises don't put your lower back under risk of chronic injury.

Other than that, it looks like a pretty good HST routine to me.

I've changed somethings around and hitting it off this week hope all is good. This week was a good and needed rest can't wait to hit them weights again!!!

2x15-mon-Squats,Incline bench,Lat pulldowns,Seated DB press
wed- Overhead Squats,Incline bench,Deadlifts,Lat pulldowns
friday- Squats,OH Press,DB bent over rows,DB benchpress

2x10-mon-Squats,Incline bench,Lat pulldowns,Seated DB press
wed- Overhead Squats,Incline bench,Deadlifts,Lat pulldowns
friday- Squats,OH press,Bent Over (DB or BB) rows,Dips

3x5-mon-Squats,Incline bench,Chinups,Seated DB press
wed- Overhead Squats,Incline bench,Deadlifts,Chinups
friday- Squats,OH press,Bent Over BB rows,Dips(weighted)

Looks fun. lol

ORIGINAL: Wyrms

For the safety of your spinal vertebrae I strongly advise that you eliminate all ab exercises.

I strongly suggest that you stop giving advices you can't back up.

ORIGINAL: coldfire

ORIGINAL: Wyrms

For the safety of your spinal vertebrae I strongly advise that you eliminate all ab exercises.

I strongly suggest that you stop giving advices you can't back up.

The gauntlet has been thrown dowm.

"In heaven, all the interesting people are missing." Friedrich Nietzsche

"Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted" John Lennon

Man it felt great to workout today after taking a week off. Never really did high reps before so that was a bitch!!!

ORIGINAL: felonyr301

Man it felt great to workout today after taking a week off. Never really did high reps before so that was a bitch!!!

yea.. i just had my recovery week too.  startin' over at 15 reps again today

My name is FOX.... and I approve this message.

It's not even about the weight the first time around... after doing 2x15 squats I felt like if I was sprinting for a while lol...

ORIGINAL: felonyr301

It's not even about the weight the first time around... after doing 2x15 squats I felt like if I was sprinting for a while lol...

trust me.. i know.  deads kill me on 2x15 haha.. but when i get done i feel awesome

My name is FOX.... and I approve this message.

Got deads later today and thats going to be interesting doing 2x15's on that. Trying out something new overhead squats see how that would go, been practicing the movement in my house with a broomstick just to get the feel for it.

So far it's a ****to squat down holding a stick up but I got the hang of it. Imagine with heavy weights and being able to pull it off= straightening my back will become more natural when doing heavy back squats!!!

ORIGINAL: felonyr301

Got deads later today and thats going to be interesting doing 2x15's on that. Trying out something new overhead squats see how that would go, been practicing the movement in my house with a broomstick just to get the feel for it.

So far it's a ****to squat down holding a stick up but I got the hang of it. Imagine with heavy weights and being able to pull it off= straightening my back will become more natural when doing heavy back squats!!!

be careful dude.  i hope you have a spotter of some sort.  gyms kinda frown on weights being thrown around or falling/etc. (not that this will happen).. but there's always the possibility.   just be careful and don't start too high in the weight.

My name is FOX.... and I approve this message.

Yea I just finished my workout and man what a ****it was to do deads!!!!

Yea I always start with the empty bar when starting new exercises but this exercise you can't really do it with heavy weights kinda like benchpress vs standing oh press.

Damn even with the empty bar (45Lbs) after the 10th rep it was hard to keep the form down. The position of the overhead squats is a hit or miss with heavy enough weights. You squat down ass to grass and if you move the bar away from over the head it's either going to lead the person falling over either bar or body.

I was only able to do 15reps on the first set and 10 reps on the second set. What killed me of course was holding the bar up for a long time while trying to squat down for many reps.

Another problem was the deadlifts that killed me after the 15th rep on the first set. I always did one heavy set of deadlifts after warming up and it did me well since if I do squats on the same day the back gets worked enough.

So this is a good thing I'm learning more on what to do for the next HST method and do it better. I never did high reps as 15's so it's a first for me so that's a big factor and was always doing heavy attempts (strength).

For 15's I needing to have a lighter weight but it's too late for that so the next time doing overhead squats with 15's I'm still doing the same weight and 2x15 which is the empty bar. I like the movement and definitely felt something in my abs here.

Deadlifts on the other hand I'm going to do one set of the attempted reps for the week. The deads for me was always better off doing one good heavy work set and it was more than enough for me and got great results. This will only apply if I do any type of squats on the same day. If I ever do a routine with deads on one day and no squats then I'll add more sets.

Since I didn't know overhead squats worked my shoulders like no tomorrow I'm going to have to take out the seated DB press on wednesdays and just do more lat pulldowns. I didn't do the seated DB press since my shoulders were already hit hard today and lesson learned!!!

This is only about 15's week though since holding the bar overhead for such a long time doing overhead squats the shoulders were worked so more shoulder work was not necessary since I also did incline bench too. It might change when I hit 10 and 5 weeks.

So far I love the overhead squats and doing high reps on the deadlifts worked my abs hard and my forearms very well instead of just feeling in the back when doing heavy 5 rep attempts.

Nah I go to my college's gym and the whole floor in the place has stuff on the floor rubber mats on top of something else or something like that you get the point. Dropping weights is no problem and no one in charge is barely around either.

ORIGINAL: felonyr301

Yea I just finished my workout and man what a ****it was to do deads!!!!

Yea I always start with the empty bar when starting new exercises but this exercise you can't really do it with heavy weights kinda like benchpress vs standing oh press.

Damn even with the empty bar (45Lbs) after the 10th rep it was hard to keep the form down. The position of the overhead squats is a hit or miss with heavy enough weights. You squat down ass to grass and if you move the bar away from over the head it's either going to lead the person falling over either bar or body.

I was only able to do 15reps on the first set and 10 reps on the second set. What killed me of course was holding the bar up for a long time while trying to squat down for many reps.

Another problem was the deadlifts that killed me after the 15th rep on the first set. I always did one heavy set of deadlifts after warming up and it did me well since if I do squats on the same day the back gets worked enough.

So this is a good thing I'm learning more on what to do for the next HST method and do it better. I never did high reps as 15's so it's a first for me so that's a big factor and was always doing heavy attempts (strength).

For 15's I needing to have a lighter weight but it's too late for that so the next time doing overhead squats with 15's I'm still doing the same weight and 2x15 which is the empty bar. I like the movement and definitely felt something in my abs here.

Deadlifts on the other hand I'm going to do one set of the attempted reps for the week. The deads for me was always better off doing one good heavy work set and it was more than enough for me and got great results. This will only apply if I do any type of squats on the same day. If I ever do a routine with deads on one day and no squats then I'll add more sets.

Since I didn't know overhead squats worked my shoulders like no tomorrow I'm going to have to take out the seated DB press on wednesdays and just do more lat pulldowns. I didn't do the seated DB press since my shoulders were already hit hard today and lesson learned!!!

This is only about 15's week though since holding the bar overhead for such a long time doing overhead squats the shoulders were worked so more shoulder work was not necessary since I also did incline bench too. It might change when I hit 10 and 5 weeks.

So far I love the overhead squats and doing high reps on the deadlifts worked my abs hard and my forearms very well instead of just feeling in the back when doing heavy 5 rep attempts.

Nah I go to my college's gym and the whole floor in the place has stuff on the floor rubber mats on top of something else or something like that you get the point. Dropping weights is no problem and no one in charge is barely around either.

awesome man.  yes.. it's great to change it up. and that's exactly what hst does. your body doesn't know WHAT THE HELL is going on haha (which is a good thing)

yea.. deadlifts wear me out too. but it's ALMOST my favorite exercise, besides flatbench and bicep curls of course (things I excel at).  people have a tendency to love the things they're good at

My name is FOX.... and I approve this message.

Hell yea for some reason I always did well on deadlifts!!!

So far deadlifts, squats, and standing oh presses is my favorite exercises but I love deads a little more than squats!!!

Like two weeks ago I just noticed where all my muscle gains went and it was legs my god lol... I always had very good legs and I'm 6'1 so yea...I'm just happy I was fortunate to not have chicken legs.

Bad part is my upper body doesn't grow as well as my legs from what I've seen the past months but alot of people is already telling me I'm getting bigger without them even knowing I'm working out lol!!!

Interesting thing is after trying incline benchpress again (haven't done it in a while) I love way more than flat benchpress I don't know if that is a good thing?!? Could be that I love oh presses alot and incline bench tends to almost hit the same area I guess?!?

I forgot to mention is how big of a gap my deads were when doing 15's. Last time I hit deads when doing strength routine and got up to 250Lbs and still had room to go but try to be on the safe side and try 135Lbs for the first deads on 2x15 and doing 15reps killed me??? Weird?!? I know I took a week off but still...

ORIGINAL: felonyr301

Hell yea for some reason I always did well on deadlifts!!!

So far deadlifts, squats, and standing oh presses is my favorite exercises but I love deads a little more than squats!!!

Like two weeks ago I just noticed where all my muscle gains went and it was legs my god lol... I always had very good legs and I'm 6'1 so yea...I'm just happy I was fortunate to not have chicken legs.

Bad part is my upper body doesn't grow as well as my legs from what I've seen the past months but alot of people is already telling me I'm getting bigger without them even knowing I'm working out lol!!!

Interesting thing is after trying incline benchpress again (haven't done it in a while) I love way more than flat benchpress I don't know if that is a good thing?!? Could be that I love oh presses alot and incline bench tends to almost hit the same area I guess?!?

how much do you weigh felon?   we are the same height.  I have a nice upper body.. and USED to have chicken legs. now they are just average/nothing special haha.  BUT>>>> they are growing.  and you sound like you're somewhat the opposite of me.

what are your stats/measurements/weight?

My name is FOX.... and I approve this message.

Weigh about 202Lbs and still going up lol. I only started to work out seriously since october or so and I'm not up there like you but it does sound like I'm the opposite lol. Saw ur pics on ur new hst log a while back and my legs are a bit bigger. Upper body.... still got some work to do... body fat is probably a little higher than you too...

I havent done any 1RM attempts since I go to the gym by myself and havent found a need to do it since Im still  a beginner (about workout to workout increases) so it is a reason why I dont do any isolation exercises (yet). Feel like when I start getting up there then I start hitting one bicep, and one tricep work.

I'll put up bf% and also all that stuff when i get a working camera lol. I dont like to use that as my only motivation . I have made this as a good hobby for the rest of my life so seeing the bar weight go up (with proper form!!) is my motivation. Doing something I couldn't do two weeks ago with ease is what keeps me going. But I'm young so yea gotta look good for the ladies!!! lol

Sure looking better is still a reason to workout but I don't want to be the guy that looks strong but ain't either lol!!! This HSt looks to be something good covers 3 different rep ranges and muscles will have to grow. Looking at your results I shouldn't be dissappointed!!!

From my log there is still some stuff missing but so far

Deadlifts- 250Lbs  1x5 *still can keep going easily, was still not using an mixed grip so I have alot of room for this!!!

Squats 200Lbs 5x5 *plenty of room here too would of been up there with the deadlifts but I had some pains in my thigh from a mistaked squat session a long time ago and had to hold off on that for a bit.

Benchpress 155Lbs 5/5/5/4/4  * This is as high as I went with 5x5 routine and I couldn't past this point deloaded twice and still no good reason for change.

Standing OH Press 105Lbs 5x5   * Hard to increase but still got room in this...

Barbell rows (proper way is each rep start with the bar on the floor) 140Lbs 5/5/4/4/4.

yea.. i guess it's motivation to see the weight moving up on the bar.   but for me.. it's not always EASY to be motivated. i even have a partner, but some days.. i'm just NOT motivated, or have little energy.

this is not to say that I am going to quit my lifestyle.  everyone has a bad day, or a weak day sometimes.. but what determines the outcome is whether or not you push thru it regardless of how you "feel".

My name is FOX.... and I approve this message.

ORIGINAL: coldfire

ORIGINAL: Wyrms

For the safety of your spinal vertebrae I strongly advise that you eliminate all ab exercises.

I strongly suggest that you stop giving advices you can't back up.

Cute.

Yea I had alot of bad days in the past some of them was my fault like no sleep and stuff but I still went to the gym and sometimes I surprise myself. Some days where I feel like crap and when I finish my workout not only do I do what I intended to do I also feel great after doing it!!!